When is it a sin?

[aiki]

It indicates an intermediate state in which our venial sins can be purged by God 'as if by fire'.

The phrase "as if by fire" is not, I think, indicating a purging of sin, but is describing the nearness to destruction some will come in their entrance into God's kingdom. One could imagine, say, a merchant escaping his burning ship, leaping through the flames into the relative safety of the water, or a householder whose home is destroyed by fire but who escapes through a flaming window to safety. This is, I believe, the sense in which the phrase "as if by (or, actually, through) fire" is used.

I've lost track of the context of your first question now, but I think it might have been a blanket condemnation of all sins as being mortal and, in as much, worthy of hell. It might be strictly true hypothetically...

James 2:10
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[paul becke]

Yes, God rules over His kingdom. This seems rather obvious to me. He is, in fact, the very substance of His kingdom. Without God, there is no kingdom of God. He causes it to be, He constitutes it by His presence and power.



Have it both ways? Have what both ways? Yes, we are to follow God's will "here and now" but Christ was very clear that his kingdom was not of this world in that it was not a material, political, human thing.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."



The kingdom of God is within - spiritually - every genuine believer (Luke 17:21) in the Person of the Holy Spirit, called the Spirit of Christ by Paul (Romans 8:9). Christ is, as I said, the core, the heart, the center of the kingdom of God, who comes to dwell within every believer by the Holy Spirit. He is himself, in a very real sense, the kingdom of God.

In any case, I agree that the kingdom of God is not reflected in, or associated with, the unregenerate will of Man.



I teach the Gospel of the New Testament, taught by Christ and the apostles. You may call it the Gospel of the Kingdom but as I pointed out, when Christ preached God's kingdom he was ultimately preaching himself, the Saviour of the World, which the apostles acknowledged clearly in their preaching of the Gospel. (Mark 1:1; Acts 2:14; Romans 1:16; Romans 15:19; 1 Corinthians 9:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:8, etc.)



Uh huh.



??? When did I ever say such a thing? Make no mistake, though: the words of Paul are inspired by God and so are the words of Christ. The first apostles believed so (2 Peter 3:15-16; Galatians 2:8-9), as did the Early Church who received Paul's letters as divine Scripture.



Merely saying so doesn't make it so. Really, though, I have a hard time following your fractured thinking. The Gospel of Christ is but a part of the whole of what, exactly? What "subtle switch" are you talking about? Who made it and how? How does this switch lead us away from the kingdom and back to the world of Man? How does this constitute the blind leading the blind?


Anyone who diminishes Christ in an effort to promote a doctrine in doing so reveals that they are off-base in their doctrine. There is no heavenly, spiritual kingdom of God without the King of Kings.

Colossians 1:15-18
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.



What are baptism and the Communion Table if not religious ceremonies? Again, though, religion and relationship are not necessarily mutually exclusive of each other.



???



??? I don't wonder why the community of believers is shrinking. It has been as much because of the legalistic, hypocritical, fear-mongers within the Church as it has been because of the licentious libertarians within it.

If you ever find a church without a hypocrite, whatever you do, do not join it... for you will surely spoil it. Only Jesus was perfect truth.

 

[timothyu]

Have it both ways? Have what both ways? Yes, we are to follow God's will "here and now" but Christ was very clear that his kingdom was not of this world in that it was not a material, political, human thing.

Exactly it had nothing to do with the way man operates. But it is also here and now and lovable. Just not the way man does things. Oil and water. It is an alternate system which cannot be combined with the ways of man which is probably why it takes so long for so many to see it. We look through eyes of the flesh so don't recognize on those terms the ways of the spirit. How can man understand that which is not made up of the only things we know until we change frequencies and start seeing through a different outlook? In effect, when reading the scriptures we have to eliminate anything put in our heads previously by the blind who were lead by the blind and look at it from afresh.

Amazing but understandable as being a solely fleshy human once myself how hard it is for people to comprehend the difference between self and selflessness especially in a world whose genetic structure only pursues self and governs and builds accordingly. Can we once changed still join in. No but we can still live according to God's will forever as outsiders until the return of Jesus to make us the in crowd.

 

[timothyu]

as I said, the core, the heart, the center of the kingdom of God, who comes to dwell within every believer by the Holy Spirit. He is himself, in a very real sense, the kingdom of God.

Yes, the authourity (governance, kingdom) of God, not of man.

 

[paul becke]

If you ever find a church without a hypocrite, whatever you do, do not join it... for you will surely spoil it. Only Jesus was perfect truth.

The phrase "as if by fire" is not, I think, indicating a purging of sin, but is describing the nearness to destruction some will come in their entrance into God's kingdom. One could imagine, say, a merchant escaping his burning ship, leaping through the flames into the relative safety of the water, or a householder whose home is destroyed by fire but who escapes through a flaming window to safety. This is, I believe, the sense in which the phrase "as if by (or, actually, through) fire" is used.



James 2:10
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

As I think I mentioned elsewhere, I believe he was making the point that Paul insisted on to Peter, that Love is a compendium of all the commandments, and not to continue to yoke ourselves to the Mosaic Law ; and certainly dose not indicate that all sns are of equal gravity.

 

[timothyu]

I teach the Gospel of the New Testament, taught by Christ and the apostles. You may call it the Gospel of the Kingdom but as I pointed out, when Christ preached God's kingdom he was ultimately preaching himself, the Saviour of the World, which the apostles acknowledged clearly in their preaching of the Gospel.

Well I would have to say He taught yes Himself. Yes as the teacher of the Kingdom He would by His deeds bring it into fruition thus offering salvation to a world willing to switch allegiances. But He more so taught the will of the Father and demonstrated by His following it to a T, never once doing His own will.

 

[timothyu]

Merely saying so doesn't make it so. Really, though, I have a hard time following your fractured thinking. The Gospel of Christ is but a part of the whole of what, exactly? What "subtle switch" are you talking about? Who made it and how? How does this switch lead us away from the kingdom and back to the world of Man? How does this constitute the blind leading the blind?

The whole of God's plan of salvation. The key to being saved once salvation was set in place, defining what we must do to accept it. What Jesus accomplished opened a door beyond fleshy death previously unavailable., It did not give everyone a free pass. They had to understand the ins and outs of the will of man vs the will of God, selfishness and self centred self justifying life redefining the definition of good and evil VS servitude, selflessness and loving neighbour as self as a way of life and governance.
Making a choice between the two, not combing them as politics or the worldly within the church try to do.

The Adversary who has been our mentor and us such willing minions, has NO place in the Kingdom or have any use for it's ideals. He is still in charge until the second coming. Do you think Christianity or it's churches are automatically free of it's influence. Would not Christianity and the churches be a prime target?

It's MO would no doubt be to not out-rightly condemn the Kingdom and the will of God, casting light upon it, but simply divert attention from it, creating a change in direction and gospel.
Not making a false one but only including only the part that was not critical or condemning of mankind's will. In effect maintaining the will of man in an institution meant to serve the will of God. The A did it successfully by the way. Subtle but obvious to those who follow Jesus Gospel of the Kingdom rather than the watered down gospel of salvation or whatever it is called.

How often do you hear in sermons the Gospel of the Kingdom proclaimed, explained with the division between the Kingdom and world of man defined as our only two choices?

Leading us back to man? ...

In order to step away from the Kingdom, in order for the Adversary to use theology, was to totally broadside Jesus and His Gospel of the Kingdom and align what was originally meant to be an alternate system (God's), with the system of man.

Gentile Church and State became one. Gentile Christianity whored itself to Babylon (that's what Peter called Rome) and a faux Christianity was created where each side could use each other for their own purposes, yet both were modelled on the human tradition of power, gain and authority. Every offshoot to this day came from that Constantinian church.

With the amalgamation the systems were no longer opposite in nature. Guess which one had to change it's theology to suit the other (even creating that new neutral gospel so as not to oppose the institutions of man). Do you think adversaries of God are going to convict their own?

 

[timothyu]

Anyone who diminishes Christ in an effort to promote a doctrine in doing so reveals that they are off-base in their doctrine.

The gospel of the Kingdom is not doctrine. It is there is scripture in the words of Jesus. The gospel of salvation is doctrine.

 

[timothyu]

On the contrary, he most certainly wished us to immerse ourself in the truth.

I would have to say more accurately He wished us to seek God, not through man's doctrines but in the scriptures. That puts religious institutions at odds with scripture especially when they try to convince the masses they are the interpreters of such. No wonder brains imploded when it was learned scripture would be made available to all.

 

[timothyu]

the traditions of men

Please don't confuse traditions of man with what i said, traditional ways/ideals of man. Mine refer to the will of man which is anti-will of God.

 

[aiki]

If you ever find a church without a hypocrite, whatever you do, do not join it... for you will surely spoil it. Only Jesus was perfect truth.

Wow. That was pretty rude. Having a bad day, are you?

 

[aiki]

It is an alternate system which cannot be combined with the ways of man which is probably why it takes so long for so many to see it. We look through eyes of the flesh so do

This is perhaps the clearest you've been in talking about what you think the kingdom of God actually is. Even still, it is quite vague. What are you talking about, exactly, when you use the phrase "the kingdom of God"?

But He more so taught the will of the Father and demonstrated by His following it to a T, never once doing His own will.

Well, since Jesus was God (John 10:30), to do His Father's will was ultimately to do his own will.

The whole of God's plan of salvation. The key to being saved once salvation was set in place, defining what we must do to accept it.

But Scripture tells us that salvation is not a plan, really, but a Person: Jesus Christ. (John 14:6; John 10:9; Acts 4:12; 1 John 5:11-13) And the key to our trusting in Christ is what God does in us. He draws us to Christ (John 6:44), and convicts us of our sin (John 16:8), and give us repentance (2 Timothy 2:25).

He is still in charge until the second coming.

Um, hmmm...yes, he's "in charge" of the World, I suppose. But he is not in charge of children of God who live in the World. Over them, he has no real power. He's a defeated foe for the believer.

Do you think Christianity or it's churches are automatically free of it's influence. Would not Christianity and the churches be a prime target?

"No" to your first question and "yes" to the second.

It's MO would no doubt be to not out-rightly condemn the Kingdom and the will of God, casting light upon it, but simply divert attention from it, creating a change in direction and gospel.

I have no idea what you actually mean here...Are you thinking of some particular teacher, or doctrine, or organization?

Not making a false one but only including only the part that was not critical or condemning of mankind's will.

I've never heard the Gospel preached without reference to Romans 3:23.

In effect maintaining the will of man in an institution meant to serve the will of God.

And what does this look like, exactly, to you? Do you mean what has happened in, say, Roman Catholicism?

The A did it successfully by the way.

Sorry, don't know what "the A" is.

Subtle but obvious to those who follow Jesus Gospel of the Kingdom rather than the watered down gospel of salvation or whatever it is called.

??? You don't think the Gospel is concerned with salvation?

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Ephesians 1:13
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

How often do you hear in sermons the Gospel of the Kingdom proclaimed, explained with the division between the Kingdom and world of man defined as our only two choices?

Can you show me in Scripture where such a thing is preached just as you've described it here?

The gospel of the Kingdom is not doctrine. It is there is scripture in the words of Jesus. The gospel of salvation is doctrine.

I'm not sure you understand what I mean by "doctrine." As I understand it, any statement of fact, any truth proposition, that one makes and defends through argument and evidence is a doctrine. So, when you make some assertion about the kingdom of God and argue for its validity, you are attempting to establish a doctrine concerning the kingdom of God.

 

[timothyu]

What are you talking about, exactly, when you use the phrase "the kingdom of God"?

Kingdom of God is two things. It is the physical place that will come down to us from Heaven, the dwelling place of the successfully resurrected. It is also the authority , the will, the governance, all the same, the Kingdom of God. His rule over that of mankind built upon His will over the self serving will of mankind. It is yet to come but is also among us in all those who put His will before the will of man. It's not on the endangered species list but is extremely rare. Put on the new. No sign of it anywhere.

 

[timothyu]

Well, since Jesus was God (John 10:30), to do His Father's will was ultimately to do his own will.

Won't get into the doctrine of that here, but the human side (flesh) was tested as it is in us.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Shalom

 

[timothyu]

ut Scripture tells us that salvation is not a plan, really, but a Person: Jesus Christ. (John 14:6; John 10:9; Acts 4:12; 1 John 5:11-13) And the key to our trusting in Christ is what God does in us. He draws us to Christ (John 6:44), and convicts us of our sin (John 16:8), and give us repentance (2 Timothy 2:25).

Jesus was part of the plan. The focus was on the Kingdom (both definitions) which was offered as a means of salvation by way of resurrection. Jesus said He came to teach and fulfil the Gospel of the Kingdom. Luke 4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
He did His part of God's plan and became King of a previously non-existent Kingdom.
By following the commandments of the Father which Jesus presented to us we are to gain access to the Kingdom. He is the way, His teachings on the Kingdom are truth, He is a light in the darkness of non-resurrection.

What God does in us is only if we first repent (change) from our allegiance to the fleshy will of man (animal nature) into the will of God through the spirit given us. we are to reject man's self serving ways for the opposite selfless way of God.

Our new allegiance and change will be shown by our fruits, any backsliding will also be shown by our fruits. Lord Lords and seeds by the wayside beware.

 

[timothyu]

Um, hmmm...yes, he's "in charge" of the World, I suppose. But he is not in charge of children of God who live in the World. Over them, he has no real power. He's a defeated foe for the believer.

You think the Tempter/Adversary cannot reverse the repentance of man from his fleshy nature?

"They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful."

 

[timothyu]

I have no idea what you actually mean here...Are you thinking of some particular teacher, or doctrine, or organization?

The whole institution was corrupted becoming dual in nature like the world of man. Those who preferred the rewards of flesh with power and wealth, and those who sought the rewards in the spirit..
But we have scriptures that still speak truth as Jesus called it. As I said the Adversary is subtle and I don't think lies, just mis-directs (the whole flesh vs spirit thing) Leaving out part of the Gospel of the Kingdom changes the entire meaning of the remaining gospel. Removing the Kingdom of God leaves the kingdom of the Adversary within the world and church intact and without opposition here. The church even successfully moved the Kingdom into the future so that life here need not change. I used the example of slavery. Slaves and slave owners were taught the slaves would get their reward in heaven but not here. Had they taught the Kingdom of God His will being love neighbour as self, the slaves would have had to be freed here, rewarded now.

 

[timothyu]

I've never heard the Gospel preached without reference to Romans 3:23.

You must remember that scripture back then when it was written all referred to the Gospel of the Kingdom, before the gentiles directed the religion away from at in order to keep mankind of the world. People had not yet lost sight of the Gospel of the Kingdom thanks to the later church. This is important to remember when reading all scripture.
Scripture needs to be read keeping the Gospel of the Kingdom solidly in the forefront of the mind. Not casually ignored after the religion returned to the world of man giving the reading a different perspective in order to protect itself

So obviously the Gospel of the Kingdom spoke of all falling short of the glory of God. Their sin was the act of wallowing in the self serving will of man's fleshy animal nature over following the will of God. (you listening Eve?) The glory of God was the spirit nature that would reject the will of man for an opposite way of thinking, living... the will of God, and reverse the damage done in the Garden.

 

[timothyu]

And what does this look like, exactly, to you? Do you mean what has happened in, say, Roman Catholicism?

In every church since church rejoined state 1700 years ago. That church could not expose itself for it's crime against God. The next generation were blinded to the original Gospel and the blind lead a blind through every incarnation of the church ever since., Thankfully the scriptures never changed and the truth is there to see READ WITHOUT THEOLOGICAL PREJUDICE. Church cannot re-align with State unless the will of God is rejected. Two opposing forces cannot exist as one.