When is it a sin?

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,485
62
✟570,686.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Well, there's Proverbs 6:16-18. In the passage, a certain set of sins are laid out as those God hates, but not all. Scripture also indicates that there will be degrees of punishment meted out on Judgment Day (Mathew 10:15; Matthew 11:21-24; Matthew 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Hebrews 10:29; Revelations 20:11-13; Revelations 22:12).

Are there different levels of repentance from certain kinds of sin? It seems to me, it might be harder to repent of (that is, turn away from or forsake) some kinds of sin (like a cocaine addiction, or alcoholism, or inappropriate content addiction) than others, and from a longer and deeper involvement with sin (where ruts of thinking and behaviour are strongly established), than from a more superficial, short-lived participation in sin. I don't know if I'm describing here a different level of repentance, however...



Yup. Right. But I think little Johnny at ten who has never done anything worse than hit his sister in anger, or tell a lie to his teacher is going to repent of his life without God much more readily than the hardened criminal who has spent decades steeped in the vilest sort of living imaginable. Don't you?
I think we would all like to think that there is some sort of level system of punishment in eternity.

However, unless little johnny is of a mental maturity to be held accountable for his actions, he is still heading to heaven..

Once he hits that maturity and cognitive level where he is accountable for his sins... it won't matter if all he has done is steal the odd cookie or become a notorious criminal and murderer... he will still be eligible for salvation if he accepts that he is a sinner and asks Christ for forgiveness and strives for a sinless life.

Meanwhile, it is hard for our human finite minds to, then, understand that Mary, that lady with the nice smile who is so nice and caring, but denies that Christ was the messiah and figures that she is too kind, on her own merit, to ever be banished from a heaven that, as far as she is concerned, is just a myth anyway... will not be with the reformed little Johnny in paradise.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,485
62
✟570,686.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Oh? The murderer may not have to do anything more to enter into God's kingdom than little Johnny the cookie-stealer, but coming to the place where trusting in Christ is possible is going to be a greater work by God in the murderer than in little Johnny. And, too, the journey to a sanctified life practically is going to be far more difficult for the murderer than for little Johnny. The murderer must overcome a complex of wrong beliefs and behaviours that were powerful enough in his life to bring him to the act of murder. Not so, little Johnny.

Actually, there is nothing that we can do, of our own merit, to enter heaven. Each one of us has but one thing.. the free gift of salvation... if we believe in Christ and ask for it.

Murder or strong Christian with a clear track record in society.. will both stand before Christ when they die..

And, Christ is not going to say "what did you do on earth"? He is going to look at their hearts and say "Yep, you believed in my promise of salvation" or "Sorry, but you denied my work".

So, although I do believe that there is scriptural argument for different levels of torment for the lost... I strongly hold to the view that there is only one thing that anyone, no matter how atrocious their sins, must do for salvation..... believe in Christ and His death on the cross for your sins... and ask for the free gift.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,485
62
✟570,686.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Are there different levels of repentance from certain kinds of sin? It seems to me, it might be harder to repent of (that is, turn away from or forsake) some kinds of sin (like a cocaine addiction, or alcoholism, or inappropriate content addiction) than others, and from a longer and deeper involvement with sin (where ruts of thinking and behaviour are strongly established), than from a more superficial, short-lived participation in sin. I don't know if I'm describing here a different level of repentance, however...

My own opinion on addictions, alcoholism and other habitual sinful actions, I truly believe that people can be truly born again and children of God and still struggle their entire Christian life with these issues... I still hold that all it takes is to believe on the name of Christ and His promise to be saved.

Some people have demons and addictions and other trials in their lives, that to the observing public, would cause them to question any hint of the working of the Holy Spirit in this persons life... All the while they are just facing things that are far greater than you and I face and are truly Christians.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,485
62
✟570,686.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
What in the world are you defining as Christian?
A Christian is one who believes in Christ and has accepted that they are a sinner and strive to become more like Christ..

Some people struggle far more than you and I with mental illnesses and addictive actions or personal compulsions... However, if they believe in Christ and are trying to turn themselves around.. how would you know?

If they didn't have Christ, they may be not much different for you and I to see.. but inside, they are fighting with all their might to even reach normal.

Christ will only look at one thing when we face Him at our death.. Did you accept you were a sinner and that He died for you and strive to be more like Him?

Or, did you reject Him and deny all His work at Calvary.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,551
8,436
up there
✟307,583.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The flesh seeks to serve self. Mammalian animal nature. The spirit within us seeks to serve others. Godly nature. We are hybrids. Which pleases God and belongs in the Kingdom? Which remains of the world of man? Are we not known by our fruits?

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tharseo
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,349
Winnipeg
✟236,538.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I think we would all like to think that there is some sort of level system of punishment in eternity.

Perhaps. In any case, it is evident in Scripture that such is the case.

Once he hits that maturity and cognitive level where he is accountable for his sins... it won't matter if all he has done is steal the odd cookie or become a notorious criminal and murderer...

True. All sin - big or small - warrants the eternal punishment of hell since all sin is an offense committed against the holy Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe, it despises the precious, undeserved redemptive work of Christ, and contributes to the corruption and destruction of God's Creation.

Actually, there is nothing that we can do, of our own merit, to enter heaven. Each one of us has but one thing.. the free gift of salvation... if we believe in Christ and ask for it.

Murder or strong Christian with a clear track record in society.. will both stand before Christ when they die..

And, Christ is not going to say "what did you do on earth"? He is going to look at their hearts and say "Yep, you believed in my promise of salvation" or "Sorry, but you denied my work".

So, although I do believe that there is scriptural argument for different levels of torment for the lost... I strongly hold to the view that there is only one thing that anyone, no matter how atrocious their sins, must do for salvation..... believe in Christ and His death on the cross for your sins... and ask for the free gift.

Um, all of this rather talks past my points.

My own opinion on addictions, alcoholism and other habitual sinful actions, I truly believe that people can be truly born again and children of God and still struggle their entire Christian life with these issues...

Hmm...can't agree with you here. How is a person a "new creature in Christ" for whom "old things are passed away" and "all things are become new" and yet still under bondage to the power of sin? Being in such bondage is exactly what Paul was going after in the sixth chapter of his letter to the Roman Church. He wrote:

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?


Romans 6:6-7
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.


Romans 6:11-12
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.


Paul did not think a genuinely saved person was destined to wrestle all the rest of their life with sin. In fact, he wrote:

Galatians 5:24
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If a believer is struggling endlessly against particular sins, it is because they don't understand the crucified life.

Some people have demons and addictions and other trials in their lives, that to the observing public, would cause them to question any hint of the working of the Holy Spirit in this persons life...

It is one thing for a professing believer to stagger at times under the weight of life's troubles; it is quite another for a professing believer to be constantly under bondage to sin and the demonic. The former state does not challenge the believer's claim to be a child of God, the latter state, however belies their claim entirely.

All the while they are just facing things that are far greater than you and I face and are truly Christians.

No, a person who claims to be Christ's but who lives like the devil is not Christ's at all. "By their fruit you shall know them." A person who stays perennially within the grip of sin is either terribly ignorant of how to live the Christian life or is not truly born-again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tharseo
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,551
8,436
up there
✟307,583.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Going against the Creator got us exiled to living in earth and we retained the death penalty. That all changed with Jesus and the Gospel of the Kingdom was given as an out for those who changed (repented) from glorifying man's will, rejecting it for God's opposite will and living accordingly still living tempted by the will of the flesh but striving to emulate the will of God, our allegiances changed.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,485
62
✟570,686.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Hmm...can't agree with you here. How is a person a "new creature in Christ" for whom "old things are passed away" and "all things are become new" and yet still under bondage to the power of sin? Being in such bondage is exactly what Paul was going after in the sixth chapter of his letter to the Roman Church. He wrote:


If a believer is struggling endlessly against particular sins, it is because they don't understand the crucified life.

Well, knowing some alcoholics very well, the first step is admitting that you are powerless over your addiction.

Yes, through Christ, we can accomplish anything.

However, if any of my alcoholic friends was to start thinking that they are no longer in any danger, even as Christians, to fall back into their alcohol problem or whatever addiction that they are dealing with... it would be a huge mistake.



It is one thing for a professing believer to stagger at times under the weight of life's troubles; it is quite another for a professing believer to be constantly under bondage to sin and the demonic. The former state does not challenge the believer's claim to be a child of God, the latter state, however belies their claim entirely.

Spoken like true and honest person who has never had to deal with addiction or mental illness, on a personal level or lived with someone who suffers with it.

Hey, I get it... I thought similar to you once.. but.. now I have a more intimate knowledge.



No, a person who claims to be Christ's but who lives like the devil is not Christ's at all. "By their fruit you shall know them." A person who stays perennially within the grip of sin is either terribly ignorant of how to live the Christian life or is not truly born-again.
Sorry, but this is not a black and white issue.... Only the individuals belief in and acceptance of Christ is black or white. They are either saved... or not...

Life for many is a roller coaster...We who stand on the side and watch, have no right to point and say... "Non Christian" or "Yep.. Christian"..
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

paul becke

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,011
814
83
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟205,214.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour
We are not qualified to identify the sin of other people.

Nonsense, I'm afraid, SkyWriting. It is not a condition of Christianity that we abdicate the use of our intelligence. As regard judging others, How can we 'speak to their condition', when evangelising, if we do not take in extraordinary aspects of their behaviour, and assess the merits of demerits of their moral underpinning ?

When Jesus spoke of judging, he immediately followed it up by saying we must not condemn, since he was all too well aware of what 'bad judges we are 'at that' ; bad in ourselves as well as bad in our judgments of others, being all too keen to condemn a person whom we, as individuals, or in the company of others, find fault with.

Even so, we are told in one of the Epistles that people guilty of a serious sin and unrepentant were to be excluded from the assembly. I don't know or can't remember the details, if stated, or how the expulsion was to be enforced on the unwilling. I was arguably lucky not to have been excluded locally myself, although only God knew the whole story. I'm not even sure it is a good idea, or was meant for all time and all places. But the point I am making is that abdicating the use of our intelligence is certainly not proscribed in scripture.
 
Upvote 0

paul becke

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,011
814
83
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟205,214.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour
Show me a scripture rather than an absurd analogy. Lots of Christians are going to heaven that commit the little sins. Lots a Christians are going to heaven having never truly been technically converted. But very few Christians or not will be going to heaven who are involved in homosexuality or adultry and almost no one will be going to heaven that is involved in idolatry and the worship of demons. Why? They are not fit for heaven.
All the apostles denied Jesus. Not just Judus. Their self centered sinful motive was all the same. Only Judus’s sin kept him out of the kingdom of God though.

The other Apostles were scared out of their wits, and very, very understandably, imho. Judas acted from a fathomless-seeming malice.
 
Upvote 0

paul becke

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,011
814
83
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟205,214.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour
Who did Christ spend the most time with when He was on earth? The people that were prime examples of society? Or, the harlots and thieves and reprobates?

If these people had a chance... anyone does.

I agree with very thing but your designation of the 'prime examples of society' - the World, and your last line.

The world is full of 'rough diamonds', and those whom the World rates highly, scripture assures us, are far more likely to be the real villains and reprobates - sinners though we all of us are.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0

paul becke

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,011
814
83
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟205,214.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour
And we are not able.
Well, I've just told you that we must not abdicate the use of our intelligence. However, sometimes in these teachings, Jesus uses the verb, 'to judge', as virtually a synonym for 'to condemn', since,as I mentioned, in our fallen human nature, we tend to have a marked preference for condemning, when we judge.

I can see where you get the other point from, in view of the quote from James :

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

However, I think the point James was making was that we must on no account, adopt the Pharisees' belief that we are able to perfectly keep the Law... if we are virtuous enough !!!!
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Nonsense, I'm afraid, SkyWriting. It is not a condition of Christianity that we abdicate the use of our intelligence. As regard judging others, How can we 'speak to their condition', when evangelising, if we do not take in extraordinary aspects of their behaviour, and assess the merits of demerits of their moral underpinning ?

When Jesus spoke of judging, he immediately followed it up by saying we must not condemn, since he was all too well aware of what 'bad judges we are 'at that' ; bad in ourselves as well as bad in our judgments of others, being all too keen to condemn a person whom we, as individuals, or in the company of others, find fault with.

Even so, we are told in one of the Epistles that people guilty of a serious sin and unrepentant were to be excluded from the assembly. I don't know or can't remember the details, if stated, or how the expulsion was to be enforced on the unwilling. I was arguably lucky not to have been excluded locally myself, although only God knew the whole story. I'm not even sure it is a good idea, or was meant for all time and all places. But the point I am making is that abdicating the use of our intelligence is certainly not proscribed in scripture.

It is written our lack of knowledge about ourselves that is the problem. Intelligence is found in recognising our own faults and failings not keeping the Spirit in our Heart:

James 4:11
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.

Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Romans 14 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

John 8:7
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Matthew 7:1-2
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Titus 3
To speak evil of no one...

James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

Proverbs 31:9
Open your mouth, judge righteously defending the rights of the poor and needy.

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Romans 12:16-19
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Galatians 6:1
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

1 Peter 4:8-9
Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. Show hospitality to one another without grumbling.

Isaiah 11:3
And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide disputes by what his ears hear,

1 John 3:17
But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?

Colossians 3:12-15
Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”


2 Timothy 2:21-23
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work. So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Psalm 15:1-5
A Psalm of David. O Lord, who shall sojourn in your tent? Who shall dwell on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend; in whose eyes a vile person is despised, but who honors those who fear the Lord; who swears to his own hurt and does not change; who does not put out his money at interest and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved.

Hebrews 10:30
For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

Romans 16:17-18
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Monna

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2017
1,195
961
75
Oicha Beni
✟105,254.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We can read scripture that explains:
- man is not qualified to judge what is sin

I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean here.

Jesus told us not to 'judge' people. But already in Genesis 3:22 'the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."' He knows that we DO know, at least most of the time, when we sin. I am convinced that even you SkyWriting know when you have done wrong, or failed to do the right thing ... at least most of the time. Under the OT law, allowance was made for "sinning" unwittingly, even to the extent of killing someone by mistake (the example of an axe head flying off the handly and accidently striking another person dead is given). And as a person grows closer to the Lord it can happen that his or her conscience will be activated and s/he will be convicted of something that s/he has never thought was sinful, as being so.

And as for judging others, I wonder if the word actually means judging in the sense of condemning, rather than in the sense of discerning. How can elders in the church "who are spiritual" otherwise correct someone seen to be doing wrong ... in a spirit of humility (Gal 6:1)? We do not have the right to condemn, but to discern and distinguish between right and wrong, that is to know "what is sin" is something that we do know, but may need to become more sensitive to.

John 8:9
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Romans 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean here.

Man is not qualified to judge what is sin for others.
Only God is qualified.

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,551
8,436
up there
✟307,583.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
When is it a sin? Let's face it, everyone sins simply by being human compliments of our dual nature. When others argue as to it's status, and quite probably the status of the sinner, they avoid looking inward on themselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,349
Winnipeg
✟236,538.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Well, knowing some alcoholics very well, the first step is admitting that you are powerless over your addiction.

Yes, through Christ, we can accomplish anything.

However, if any of my alcoholic friends was to start thinking that they are no longer in any danger, even as Christians, to fall back into their alcohol problem or whatever addiction that they are dealing with... it would be a huge mistake.

Well, the two youngest of my three brothers were alcoholics. They are both entirely free of their addiction to drink now and have been for years. Neither brother thinks of himself as an endlessly-recovering alcoholic, but as the spiritually-regenerate person Paul describes in Romans 6 who is "dead unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ." My brothers don't define themselves in terms of their sin, but in the terms the Bible uses to define all born-again Christians: new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), saint (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2), joint-heir with Christ (Romans 8:17), redeemed, sanctified, and justified believer (1 Corinthians 1:30), etc. They look at themselves as Paul looked at the stumbling, contentious, carnal Corinthian believers:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


Paul here reminded the Corinthian Christians that they were not the sum of their sin, but were washed clean of their sin and made completely new in Christ. Paul did not think the Corinthian believers should have continued to frame their view of themselves in terms of their sin but rather in accord with their new spiritual identity in their Saviour.

Spoken like true and honest person who has never had to deal with addiction or mental illness, on a personal level or lived with someone who suffers with it.

Hey, I get it... I thought similar to you once.. but.. now I have a more intimate knowledge.

Goodness. You couldn't be more wrong.

Sorry, but this is not a black and white issue.... Only the individuals belief in and acceptance of Christ is black or white. They are either saved... or not...

I'm afraid the teaching of Scripture is quite clear that a person's salvation is "black or white." You are either in the kingdom of God, in His family, or you aren't. There is no middle ground to occupy.

Life for many is a roller coaster...We who stand on the side and watch, have no right to point and say... "Non Christian" or "Yep.. Christian"..

I disagree. All throughout the New Testament we are given criteria by which to judge if we (or others) are within the faith or not (Matthew 7:17-20; Romans 6:22; Galatians 5:22-23; 1 John 3:14; Jeremiah 15:16; Romans 8:16, 1 Corinthians 16:22; Galatians 1:8-9, etc). I am well within biblical boundaries, then, to assess a person's claim to salvation on the basis of the criteria given in Scripture. If they meet the biblical standard, they are saved, if not, they aren't.
 
Upvote 0