When healing doesn't come

[dollarsbill]

I have to simply ask then - why do Christians get sick?

To start, it could be chastening or a trial of faith. If we weren't going to experience 'some' sickness God wouldn't have promised to heal us. There would be no need for the healing promises in the Bible.

 

[Simon Peter]

Also, healing services in church buildings is not supported by Scripture. Most miracles of healing happened in the streets or people's homes.

Actually, church buildings are not supported by scripture.


peace,
Simon

 

[Faulty]

Okay. Paul is usually quite clear in what he says. He does not specify his thorn in the flesh as being some kind of sickness. He called it a messenger from Satan. As I have said before, it is much more likely to be the persecutions that he has had to bear for the Gospel. This is consistent with what he has stated about the persecutions and trials he has had to go through in declaring the Gospel wherever he went.

But there is absolutely no connection with any type of sickness. To say that he had some type of eye condition is a pure speculation bordering on absolute nonsense.

How's that?

Can you justify biblically equating persecution as a messenger of Satan?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Can you justify biblically equating persecution as a messenger of Satan?

Yes. From Paul's own testimony of what he went through as he preached the Gospel in different places. Also, use your own common sense:
Does persecution come from God?
If it doesn't come from God, and it is there to stop a person exercising their faith and preaching the Gospel, then give three guesses where it comes from?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Actually, church buildings are not supported by scripture.


peace,
Simon

Very True. Just think of all the millions of dollars that have been spent on building great big mega-church buildings in the belief that God's presence is more apparent in them. What a waste! And God doesn't care one bit about them! They are just great big Old Covenant Jewish type synagogues!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

To start, it could be chastening or a trial of faith. If we weren't going to experience 'some' sickness God wouldn't have promised to heal us. There would be no need for the healing promises in the Bible.

Nowhere does Jesus say that. The only place where He even mentioned why a condition existed was in the case of the man born blind, and that was a disability and not a sickness. He said that it was for the glory of God in the healing of it, and He demonstrated that by restoring the guy's sight to him.

How could a sickness by a chastening or a trial of faith, when Jesus took our sicknesses in His body on the cross and by His stripes we have already been healed (1Peter 2:24).

Sickness is not a chastening or a trial of our faith, because God is not the one who brings sickness on people, He heals people. Sickness comes from the devil, and God does not use the devil to do His work. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, not the devil.

The reason why people in our churches are sick and not healed is because of the unbelief of Christians and their church leaders. It is our fault, not God's fault, that people are not healed, because in most cases, we have neither the Scriptural knowledge or the faith to effectively minister healing to those who are sick.

85% of the methods used by today's Pentecostal/Charismatic churches to minister healing, does not work. But these church leaders are too proud to admit that, and so they blame either God for allowing the sickness to continue, or the sick person for not having enough faith to be healed; when all the time it is the unbelief and pride of church leaders that they try to be the "experts" in the healing ministry, instead of working to equip church members to use the healing ministry in the way that Jesus did it in the Gospels.

 

[dollarsbill]

Nowhere does Jesus say that. The only place where He even mentioned why a condition existed was in the case of the man born blind, and that was a disability and not a sickness. He said that it was for the glory of God in the healing of it, and He demonstrated that by restoring the guy's sight to him.
How could a sickness by a chastening or a trial of faith, when Jesus took our sicknesses in His body on the cross and by His stripes we have already been healed (1Peter 2:24).

Why couldn't sickness be chastening or trial of faith? Job was sick as a trial of his faith. Deut 28 shows that sickness can indeed be chastening. Do you ever get sick?

Sickness is not a chastening or a trial of our faith, because God is not the one who brings sickness on people, He heals people. Sickness comes from the devil, and God does not use the devil to do His work. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, not the devil.

Deuteronomy 28:58-61 (NASB)
58 "If you are not careful to observe all the words of this law which are written in this book, to fear this honored and awesome name, the LORD your God, 59 then the LORD will bring extraordinary plagues on you and your descendants, even severe and lasting plagues, and miserable and chronic sicknesses. 60 "He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid, and they will cling to you. 61 "Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed.

The reason why people in our churches are sick and not healed is because of the unbelief of Christians and their church leaders. It is our fault, not God's fault, that people are not healed, because in most cases, we have neither the Scriptural knowledge or the faith to effectively minister healing to those who are sick.

That too.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why couldn't sickness be chastening or trial of faith? Job was sick as a trial of his faith. Deut 28 shows that sickness can indeed be chastening. Do you ever get sick?

Deuteronomy 28:58-61 (NASB)
58 "If you are not careful to observe all the words of this law which are written in this book, to fear this honored and awesome name, the LORD your God, 59 then the LORD will bring extraordinary plagues on you and your descendants, even severe and lasting plagues, and miserable and chronic sicknesses. 60 "He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid, and they will cling to you. 61 "Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed.

The important thing to consider when you are applying Scripture, is to consider who is the intended audience. Moses was writing to Old Covenant Jews who were under the Law. It was not written to New Covenant Christians who are born again, new creatures in Christ.

You see, the Bible was written for us, but not always to us.

You are misquoting the Scripture and applying things that Moses taught to people he never intended to apply it to.

Job did not see his sickness and misfortune as a trial of his faith. There is no mention in all the book that Job actually exercised faith in his situation. Faith is always based on the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. There is no mention anywhere that God gave Job His Word until right at the end when He was about to restore Job to health and to restore all the other things.

God cannot put upon anyone the diseases that existed in Egypt, because Jesus was whipped, fulfilling Isaiah's prophecy that by His stripes we are healed. Jesus quoted Isaiah in context with His supernatural healing ministry. Peter quotes it in the past tense to show that now that the Atonement has been made, healing is an accomplished fact for all New Covenant Christians. All we have to do is to believe it.

I think that you need to do some serious Bible study to find out the difference between the Old and New Covenants.

If you are still living according to what Moses taught in Deuteronomy, then maybe you are still in the Old Covenant where you are expected to keep the whole Law without one infraction. If this is so, you may not be born again. You may still be at the stage of being a believer in the same way that unconverted Jews were believers during the time that Jesus was on earth before His death and resurrection. You might be like Apollos who only had the baptism of John, and you might need a genuine born again, New Covenant Christian to explain the Way more perfectly to you.

 

[Faulty]

Yes. From Paul's own testimony of what he went through as he preached the Gospel in different places. Also, use your own common sense:
Does persecution come from God?
If it doesn't come from God, and it is there to stop a person exercising their faith and preaching the Gospel, then give three guesses where it comes from?

1. Nonbelievers
2. The devil
3. Personal sin and guilt

 

[Steve Petersen]

or...they aren't healed because they just aren't healed yet.

Chronic illness for attention? lame.

Ever heard of Munchausen Syndrome?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"To say that Paul had a sickness or an infirmity is nonsense, because the Scripture does not make that clear at all.

Really??

Gal13:
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

OBVIOUS CONCLUSIONS - Paul got sick in Galatia, and it apparently had something to do with, or in some way affected he eyes. He apparently "Got better" eventually, and it's NOT known whether the infirmity was "Chronic" or not.

"Paul's thorn in the flesh could have been anything."

True - but who was talking about any "Thorn in the flesh??? Not me for sure. The Bible seems to indicate a "Spiritual buffeting" was his "Thorn issue", not any "Physical affliction".

But to say there's no biblical evidence that Paul "Got sick" is disingenuous. And it's also a matter of Biblical record that Paul LEFT TROPHIMUS SICK - 2 Tim 4: SO apparently Paul DIDN'T minister healing to him, or it didn't "take".

20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Case closed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"To say that Paul had a sickness or an infirmity is nonsense, because the Scripture does not make that clear at all.

Really??

Gal13:
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

Doesn't prove sickness. Could be any sort of natural weakness.

14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Doesn't prove sickness either.

15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

Does not prove that Paul was sick. The most reasonable meaning is that they valued Paul so much, they would have sacrificed what was most precious to them.

OBVIOUS CONCLUSIONS

- Paul got sick in Galatia, and it apparently had something to do with, or in some way affected he eyes. He apparently "Got better" eventually, and it's NOT known whether the infirmity was "Chronic" or not.

Obvious conclusion my foot. It is merely an old chestnut speculation (total guesswork) trotted out by cessationists to try and justify their lying doctrine.

"Paul's thorn in the flesh could have been anything."

True - but who was talking about any "Thorn in the flesh??? Not me for sure. The Bible seems to indicate a "Spiritual buffeting" was his "Thorn issue", not any "Physical affliction".

But to say there's no biblical evidence that Paul "Got sick" is disingenuous. And it's also a matter of Biblical record that Paul LEFT TROPHIMUS SICK - 2 Tim 4: SO apparently Paul DIDN'T minister healing to him, or it didn't "take".

Jesus passed by the lame beggar at the Gate Beautiful for three years as He went to the Temple to teach. Does this mean that the healing ministry of Jesus is not true?

Jesus left thousands of people still sick in the villages around Jerusalem who were healed later after the Day of Pentecost.

20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Case closed.

So Paul left someone sick somewhere. So what?

Doesn't alter the fact that healing of sicknesses is in the Atonement and that Christian believers have been commissioned to heal the sick and expect supernatural results.

Your "proofs" have turned out to be a damp squib.

 

[dollarsbill]

You are misquoting the Scripture and applying things that Moses taught to people he never intended to apply it to.

You stated: "Sickness comes from the devil, and God does not use the devil to do His work."

I stated: "61 Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed."

Job did not see his sickness and misfortune as a trial of his faith. There is no mention in all the book that Job actually exercised faith in his situation. Faith is always based on the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. There is no mention anywhere that God gave Job His Word until right at the end when He was about to restore Job to health and to restore all the other things.

Are you implying that Job didn't have faith? He did indeed have great faith.

God cannot put upon anyone the diseases that existed in Egypt, because Jesus was whipped, fulfilling Isaiah's prophecy that by His stripes we are healed. Jesus quoted Isaiah in context with His supernatural healing ministry. Peter quotes it in the past tense to show that now that the Atonement has been made, healing is an accomplished fact for all New Covenant Christians. All we have to do is to believe it.

And so I ask again, do you ever get sick?

I think that you need to do some serious Bible study to find out the difference between the Old and New Covenants.

If you are still living according to what Moses taught in Deuteronomy, then maybe you are still in the Old Covenant where you are expected to keep the whole Law without one infraction. If this is so, you may not be born again. You may still be at the stage of being a believer in the same way that unconverted Jews were believers during the time that Jesus was on earth before His death and resurrection. You might be like Apollos who only had the baptism of John, and you might need a genuine born again, New Covenant Christian to explain the Way more perfectly to you.

I didn't imply any such thing. I am not under the Law.

Galatians 5:18 (NASB)
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You stated: "Sickness comes from the devil, and God does not use the devil to do His work."

I stated: "61 Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed."

Not under the New Covenant. Healing is in the Atonement. It is always God's will to heal, not put diseases and sicknesses on people.

Are you implying that Job didn't have faith? He did indeed have great faith.

He actually did not know what was going on. Faith is an action based on what a person knows is a promise of God. Abraham had faith because God promised him a son in his old age, and he believed it and expected it to happen, but even he tried to bring it to pass in his own strength and Ishmael was the result. Job had no promise to go by, so he was not exercising faith, but rather trust that God would see him through, even if it meant his death. He certainly did not exhibit faith for healing.

And so I ask again, do you ever get sick?

I am not the model for healing, so you're barking up the wrong tree there. Jesus is our model for healing, and we can read all about Him and the way He healed people in the Gospels.

I didn't imply any such thing. I am not under the Law.

Galatians 5:18 (NASB)
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

But you are trying to apply Old Covenant Scripture to New Covenant people, and you are ignoring the Atonement where by the stripes that Jesus received when He was whipped, we were healed.

So how can God put sicknesses and diseases upon us, when we have already been healed through the Atonement which happened 2000 years ago?

So, the only person who puts sickness onto people is the devil. So to reverse sickness and disease, we have been given authority by Jesus, through the Holy Spirit to destroy the works of the devil.

 

[dollarsbill]

Your refusal to answer the question is clear enough.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Your refusal to answer the question is clear enough.

Do you actually read the Bible sometimes?

 

[dollarsbill]

Do you actually read the Bible sometimes?

Still no answer. I'll try again, Do you ever get sick?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"He has these fatal diseases and he doesn't even care, he's just crazy about Jesus, haha. It's amazing."

The VICTORY in life ISN'T necessarily when the problem goes away - It's also when it stays, but doesn't matter any more. There's no record of Paul's "thorn" going anywhere - but it didn't matter - GOD'S STRENGTH WAS SUFFICIENT.

Complete healing where there's no more problem is a good thing too - a LOT more convenient, but it seems there's more "Testimony" resident in HAVING an "issue" - but keeping on keeping on anyway.

 

[dollarsbill]

An interesting thread might be " do the 'healers' get healed? "

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"An interesting thread might be " do the 'healers' get healed? "

Some of 'em DO, and some of 'em Don't.

"Healers" are no more likely to be "healed" than anybody else, and the simple FACT is that MOST FOLKS, "Healers" or otherwise, who are prayed for to be healed in churches that believe in such things - aren't.

And a few are.