When healing doesn't come

[AndOne]

I see something questionable about your assumptions regarding biblical healing.

Peter declares that 'by whose stripes ye were healed...' (1 Peter 2:24). This means that healing is a finished work as of 2000 years ago. You declare in faith that healing already belongs to you, you receive it by faith as done and you stand in faith, without wavering.

The faith I speak of is the faith that knows God will perform His word, for you, on your behalf, every single time you put the Word of God to work. Remember, God is not a liar; God cannot lie.

Who are you talking to?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What we have to consider is that it is the Holy Spirit who heals people. Even Jesus knew that, because it was the Holy Spirit through Him who healed people in the Gospels.

We know that the Scripture teaches that God is a healing God and that healing is available to His children.

But the fact remains: not everyone gets healed when they are prayed for.

Because Jesus laid aside His glory as the second person in the trinity and took upon human form, He became as human as we are, except without sin. This means that when He did healing, miracles, and cast out demons, He was activating the same Holy Spirit who is available to us.

When the Apostles and others in the early church healed the sick, they were activating the same Holy Spirit as Jesus did and we do.

Jesus promised that the works He did, we can do, and greater works. He could say that because He knew that it was the Holy Spirit who healed people then, and the Holy Spirit can heal people now.

But there were times when Jesus did not heal everyone. He healed only one lame man around the pool where the angel stirred the waters, even though there was a crowd of sick people around that pool.

I wonder how many times Jesus passed the lame man at the Gate Beautiful and did not heal him? It was later on that Peter and John did the healing.

When Jesus got to His home town, Nazareth, it says that He could not do many healings or miracles because of the unbelief of the people who knew Him since his childhood.

The Holy Spirit cannot heal many people in our churches either, because our Western minds are corrupted by the Great Scientific Enlightenment period in the 1700s when the pure belief in the supernatural was replaced with the demand for scientific proof. We are conditioned not to believe in the supernatural. This is why not many miracles happen in our society, when in the third world, miracles seem common place.

We tend to read the book of Acts according to our non supernatural experience rather than the experience of Acts itself. This means when we read Acts we superimpose our unbelieving experience on it, rather than take it at face value. It is almost built into or DNA, and it would take an intense move of the Spirit to change it.

Also, we have lost the art of persevering, prevailing prayer. Many healings need extended time of prayer and spiritual warfare to happen. We want instant results so that when we pray we knock at the door and run away before God has a chance to answer.

Many sick Christians have other problems such as unforgiveness and bitterness that need to be dealt with before they can be healed, and this may require hours of counselling.

So the Scripture deists can quote Scripture until they go blue in the face, but it won't overrule the sovereignty of God. God is greater than Scripture. We, as the clay, cannot tell the Potter what to do. We need to consult the Holy Spirit to find out what He wants to do in any situation that requires the activation of His power.

Remember the Corinthians. They were not healed and some died prematurely because they did not appreciate the body and blood of Christ when they had communion. Because of unconfessed sin, unforgiveness, bitterness, and conflict with their brothers and sisters in Christ, they were eating the elements unworthily, and this brought sickness among them.

I wonder how many Christians in one denomination are critical of Christians in other denominations who might have a different way of worshiping God, or have a different idea of how the Holy Spirit works, or they might have spiritual pride, thinking they are the most spiritual in town. They might be unaware that these things can stop the Holy Spirit healing people.

How many Pentecostal healing evangelists through pride and self aggrandisement promised and still promise healing to their listeners but nothing happens and hundreds go away disappointed and disillusioned with the whole healing ministry?

Even on this forum when there is a healing thread we quickly see brother sniping at brother because of disagreements in doctrine and/or practice.

So we wonder why God does not heal very often...?

 

[Logeth]

I wonder how many Christians in one denomination are critical of Christians in other denominations who might have a different way of worshiping God, or have a different idea of how the Holy Spirit works, or they might have spiritual pride, thinking they are the most spiritual in town. They might be unaware that these things can stop the Holy Spirit healing people.

Yes! That is a sad reality.
We had in our church a lot of healings of different diseases, almost every time we had church, but still there are many people that did not get healed. Why? I don't know and I would never blame God for this. A young boy who had a healing gift (people were almost always healed by God when he was praying for them) died some months ago of cancer. We really prayed and believed until the last minute. Why did he die? I DON'T KNOW. My spiritual mum has cancer now and she is on medical treatment. When she got sick, I was really mad. I just wanted to not believe in miracles any more. But then, I realized that things like this happen. If she will not supernaturally get healed, doctors will heal her. I mean, God let doctors on earth, no?
I believe that there are still miracles today, I believe, know and see almost every week how God heals people, He healed me, too. But I know that not everybody gets healed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes! That is a sad reality.
We had in our church a lot of healings of different diseases, almost every time we had church, but still there are many people that did not get healed. Why? I don't know and I would never blame God for this. A young boy who had a healing gift (people were almost always healed by God when he was praying for them) died some months ago of cancer. We really prayed and believed until the last minute. Why did he die? I DON'T KNOW. My spiritual mum has cancer now and she is on medical treatment. When she got sick, I was really mad. I just wanted to not believe in miracles any more. But then, I realized that things like this happen. If she will not supernaturally get healed, doctors will heal her. I mean, God let doctors on earth, no?
I believe that there are still miracles today, I believe, know and see almost every week how God heals people, He healed me, too. But I know that not everybody gets healed.

It comes right down to this: God is sovereign, and He decides to heal one person and not heal another, and He does not have to give us a reason for His decision.

We are instructed to pray for the sick, and in doing that, all we can do is to put that person into the hands of Jesus, who is sovereign in His decision to heal or not to heal, or to heal in the way He sees fit.

We are the clay, and He is the potter, so it is inappropriate and futile for the clay to demand of the potter or to specify how the potter should shape the clay vessel.

Job said, "Though He slay me, I will trust Him."

Faith is trusting God whatever happens. So healing does not come, we do not abandon our trust in God. We keep right on trusting Him, that He knows what He is doing, and He desires the best for us. We know that He is able and willing to heal, but if He decides not to do it instantly, He has a reason for it, which He does not have to disclose to us. What He wants is for us to trust Him no matter what.

So, we don't look to the healing, but we look to the Healer and put our trust in Him.

 

[CGL1023]

What do you make of it when a person has had a sickness for many years and has been struggling with pain - and is charismatic and asks continually for God's healing and it doesn't come?

I'm sort of in this situation as a family member of mine has been suffering for many years - and as a Charismatic Christian I have asked for God's miraculous healing but the answer seems to always be "no." In fact the condition has only gotten worse with time. I must say it has gotten frustrating - though I have never stopped asking the Lord for his healing...

I am taught that, as of the Cross, healing was delivered to the believer. Not only was healing delivered but so was prosperity and freedom from demonic oppression, i.e., Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. (Luke 12:32 KJV).
The individual's job is to believe the Word and simply thank God for his Word, that you are already healed (1Pet 2:24) and that your faith is strong and unshakeable.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"The individual's job is to believe the Word and simply thank God for his Word, that you are already healed (1Pet 2:24) and that your faith is strong and unshakeable."

Unless, of course, as it is in most cases where there IS NO FAITH, only HOPE - so there's nothing to "Shake" to begin with. TOXIC WoF urges their folks to pretend that they have "faith" when they don't - and if they can keep it up consistently enough for LONG enough - it'll work - supposedly.

 

[Faulty]

The individual's job is to believe the Word and simply thank God for his Word, that you are already healed (1Pet 2:24) and that your faith is strong and unshakeable.

I see you've been drinking the "name it, claim it" Kool-Aid. Try reading that verse in context, and don't stop at verse 24. Venture right on into verse 25 which tells you exactly what has been healed by His stripes. And don't ignore the first 2/3 of verse 24 neither.

The healing in reference there is a death to sin and a reconciliation to God. Context matters, or at least it does if understanding is an actual goal.

 

[CGL1023]

I see you've been drinking the "name it, claim it" Kool-Aid. Try reading that verse in context, and don't stop at verse 24. Venture right on into verse 25 which tells you exactly what has been healed by His stripes. And don't ignore the first 2/3 of verse 24 neither.

The healing in reference there is a death to sin and a reconciliation to God. Context matters, or at least it does if understanding is an actual goal.

All I would say is enjoy your theology, whatever it is.

 

[AndOne]

I agree with Faulty - scripture must be read in its full context...

 

[hopeinGod]

I have been working for a quarter century at a VA hospital where men from the battlefields in Iraq and Afghanistan are brought to us who are in the most desperate conditions. Blasts from roadside bombs have caused the loss of skull and brain, leg(s) and arm(s). Are any of these soldiers Christians? Certainly. Have I witnessed a single arm grow out of a shoulder after 25 years? Nope, and I won't either.

It's time the charismatic church admits to the limitations of the intensely held beliefs of most. What would they have to say to these unfortunate, brave men? That they don't have enough faith to be healed?

The simple truth is that there is zeal among us, but it's not always according to knowledge. Zeal, after all, is the product of repentance (2 Cor. 7:11), so even a person newly born in the Lord can have zeal.

It's time we admit that many will not be cured in this life. And why won't they? It's surely not due to any of the reasons WOFers give. Only God knows that answer.

 

[Bridgit]

What do you make of it when a person has had a sickness for many years and has been struggling with pain - and is charismatic and asks continually for God's healing and it doesn't come?

I'm sort of in this situation as a family member of mine has been suffering for many years - and as a Charismatic Christian I have asked for God's miraculous healing but the answer seems to always be "no." In fact the condition has only gotten worse with time. I must say it has gotten frustrating - though I have never stopped asking the Lord for his healing...

"For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

As God is infinite it is not possible to put Him in a box and figure Him out completely. There are many reasons why a person is not healed and sometimes these reasons are obvious, sometimes there are not. We have to never forget that God is in control and all powerful and though He can heal, sometimes He chooses not to eventhough sin has nothing to do with it. We have to trust that He loves His children and that His plans for them are perfect even if they don't make sense to us.

 

[Intheboat]

I " have " been caught up for years thinking I had to attend a special meeting that God would lead me to one day for my Husband to receive healing or that I needed to be full of the Spirit and speak more in Tongues. And getting impatient and wearied and blaming my Husband , but at present I am working on my relationship with God - not that I went in that direction on my own - I was led. Back to basics I mean. I can believe that only a small number of believers get healed. One problem I have with being ill over any period of time is that pain meds lose their efficacy. It's okay for a few days then it starts to give stomach trouble. I found the whole WOF thing very attractive and it has hurt to step away. One thing I find with myself and others is when I read a testimony of how a person was led into a dry hard place I focus on where they ended up and want THAT blessing - disregarding the length of time it took to mature them into it!! I know God to be extremely kind and better at showing his love than we are.

 

[Biblicist]

I have been working for a quarter century at a VA hospital where men from the battlefields in Iraq and Afghanistan are brought to us who are in the most desperate conditions. Blasts from roadside bombs have caused the loss of skull and brain, leg(s) and arm(s). Are any of these soldiers Christians? Certainly. Have I witnessed a single arm grow out of a shoulder after 25 years? Nope, and I won't either.

It's time the charismatic church admits to the limitations of the intensely held beliefs of most. What would they have to say to these unfortunate, brave men? That they don't have enough faith to be healed?

The simple truth is that there is zeal among us, but it's not always according to knowledge. Zeal, after all, is the product of repentance (2 Cor. 7:11), so even a person newly born in the Lord can have zeal.

It's time we admit that many will not be cured in this life. And why won't they? It's surely not due to any of the reasons WOFers give. Only God knows that answer.

Even though I am totally intolerant of what we would deem to be WoF distinctive, we should remind ourselves that there are differences between how healings, miracles and ‘signs and wonders’ operate.

In this case of restoring missing arms and legs then this does not come under the realm of healings but more with that of signs & wonders; in some cases it could be under miracles.

When someone comes forward for prayer for say the restoration of a limb or even an eye, we would be doing the individual a favour by informing them that we do not work under signs and wonders but within the domain of healings and miracles; sadly it seems that the Church rarely seems to encourage people to reach out to work within the area of miracles but to a limited degree we do see some operating within either the Manifestation of Healings (1Co 12:9) and some are even elevated to the Office of Healings (1Co 12:28).

So should we ever consider praying for someone who comes forward for prayer to have a limb restored, I think not as we are certainly not operating within the realm of signs and wonders. Can we pray for say the partial restoration of a part of our body such as with a damaged eye, certainly as this will come under the realm of either healings or miracles. We can certainly pray for most (99.99%) diseases as this comes under the area of healings and maybe in some cases it could be with miracles.
There is the question of healings from certain mental afflictions but I will leave this alone as I don’t think that it is appropriate to deal with this question on a public forum.

When it comes to individual cases where some are not healed this becomes complicated. We know that faith can certainly be an issue but of course it should never be considered from within the errant framework of WoF beliefs. We also know from 1Co 11:27-32,

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
​

So for some of us sickness and even death can be the result of sin but this is only one piece of the ‘puzzle’ and we should not fall back to the cheap shot of saying “Oh well, you must be in some form of sin.” We are told in James 5:14-16,

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
​

This is not some simple panacea in that we can call upon any collection of elders as the spiritual maturity and understanding of many groups of elders can be simply woeful.
In a healthy congregation that understands the power of the Holy Spirit we should expect (well in theory at least) to find men who are proficient in the Spiritual Manifestations of wisdom, faith, knowledge, discernment and in healings and miracles. When we couple these spiritual abilities with their wisdom, if certain sins or bitterness exist then these things will become evident; but how often do we encounter a local assembly of elders being able to operate in this manner?

If people are struggling to have faith for issues that are within the realm of healings or miracles then the framework that I have detailed will assist them, but if their issues relate more to something that is only remedied under Sign and Wonders then they should simply rely on the Lord for his Grace.

Have I answered the OP question, I think not as I have only provided a general framework.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"we should remind ourselves that there are differences between how healings, miracles and ‘signs and wonders’ operate."

This, I think is an "Artificial" distinction which is produced more by the ASSUMPTION that "limb restoration" can't happen, than by any Biblical concepts that would lead to that opinion.

"Gifts is Gifts" and there's no intrinsic difference at all between ministering healing, Raising the dead, or Interpreting a message in tongues. And there's no "Dispensational Barrier" in 2012 that circumvents the possibility of God DOING whatever he pleases TO Whomever he pleases, THROUGH the ministry of anybody He pleases, any TIME He pleases.

Like the Cessationists who are UNABLE to move in ANY gifting (as far as they know), and consequently have invented an entire doctrinal structure to explain their incapability. Full Gospel folks have been UNABLE to regenerate limbs, and as a result create rationalizations for that "incapability".

One doesn't "Struggle" to "Have Faith" - one either HAS Faith, or he doesn't, and all the "Struggle" in the world can't produce what's simply NOT there - because God hasn't revealed it - so far.

 

[Biblicist]

This, I think is an "Artificial" distinction which is produced more by the ASSUMPTION that "limb restoration" can't happen, than by any Biblical concepts that would lead to that opinion.

Even though the majority of Pentecostals and Charismatics would not see any differentiation between the three; even so this is something that the Scriptures is very clear about – well its clear when an indepth study is done on the subject which means that we have to get away from the problematic transational inconsistencies with our various Bible translations.

"Gifts is Gifts" and there's no intrinsic difference at all between ministering healing, Raising the dead, or Interpreting a message in tongues.

Well the Scriptures as per 1Co 12:7-11 are absolutely and unequivocally specific about this in that there is a vast difference with how the Spirit works through us in healings and interpretations. Remember, Paul even tells us that not all will work in the realm of healings...tongues etc.

The Scriptures tells us that various people will operate within the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit and also within some of the 8 Congregational Offices - then ‘gifts is certainly not gifts’; actually Paul doesn’t even use the term ‘gifts’ in 1st Corinthians though he does use it in a general sense in Rom 1:11 but he is not making any reference to imparting one of the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit.

And there's no "Dispensational Barrier" in 2012 that circumvents the possibility of God DOING whatever he pleases TO Whomever he pleases, THROUGH the ministry of anybody He pleases, any TIME He pleases.

I know that this is not your intent but it seems that you are implying that 1Cor 12, 13 & 14 is not to be our benchmark when it comes to ministering in and through the power of the Spirit; it almost sounds like you are saying that in the end it will all pan out. I am more than prepared to acknowledge that the Father can and will operate within the realm of Signs & Wonders in Greenfield areas but this would be a rare and unusual thing to happen within regions where the Gospel is already established – though not impossible.

In my 37 years within the Full Gospel I have never witnessed any Signs & Wonders, nor do I ever expect to do so at least while I reside in Australia. There was a case here in Australia about 12 months ago where a Christian cardiac surgeon was revived from the dead about 12 hours after he was pronounced clinically dead – or there abouts. When I heard him speak he was also able to show an incredible amount of documentation so even though this would be definitely classed as a miracle I’m not so sure that we could call it a Sign or Wonder.

One doesn't "Struggle" to "Have Faith" - one either HAS Faith, or he doesn't, and all the "Struggle" in the world can't produce what's simply NOT there - because God hasn't revealed it - so far.

I couldn’t disagree more! I know that you share the same displeasure as I do with the WoF movement but this sounds very much like their perspective – at least from how I am reading what you are saying. If we do not struggle with achieving a necessary degree of faith why is faith one of the Manifestations of the Spirit and not all operate within the Spirit in this way.

Like the Cessationists who are UNABLE to move in ANY gifting (as far as they know), and consequently have invented an entire doctrinal structure to explain their incapability. Full Gospel folks have been UNABLE to regenerate limbs, and as a result create rationalizations for that "incapability".

It’s hardly a ‘rationalisation” as the Scriptures differentiate between that of Signs & Wonders, the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit and the 8 Congregational Offices. If the Word were to tell me such things were to be expected then I would say that we need to pull up our socks and do as we are told. We are certainly told that miracles are to be normative within each local congregation and I have no problem with parts of internal organs being rebuilt but when it comes to the overt and indisputable re-establishment of missing limbs this is where the Lord seems to be drawing the line.

As for raising the dead after 12 hours or so, I wish that this was a daily occurrence and not as infrequent as it is but as for the Lord restoring missing limbs I can well appreciate the problematic nature of its sign value.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"this is something that the Scriptures is very clear about"

But of course you then present NOTHING from the scriptures that would explain your artificial dichotomy between "Signs and wonders" and Spiritual Giftings.

And you speak of:

"we have to get away from the problematic transational inconsistencies with our various Bible translations"

Whatever THAT Means - nothing is given to illustrate any of that.

"In my 37 years within the Full Gospel I have never witnessed any Signs & Wonders, nor do I ever expect to do so at least while I reside in Australia."

Which is an illustration of my initial contention - YOU don't expect to EVER see anything miraculous in Australia, and as a result of that, you've concocted a "Theological Rationalization" so that you don't have to be concerned about that lack of OVERT Spiritual activity.

Happens all the time, y'all. That's how Visible church theology works.
.

 

[Biblicist]

"this is something that the Scriptures is very clear about"

But of course you then present NOTHING from the scriptures that would explain your artificial dichotomy between "Signs and wonders" and Spiritual Giftings.

That’s a fair comment. This is one of the frustrations of a general forum such as CF in that we have to constantly re-establish a few building blocks as they tend to get lost in the forum before we can move on – but such is life.

I am of the strong view that the greatest failing of both the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements with regard to its doctrinal position is that we have totally failed to correctly understand that the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Co 12:7-11) and the 8 Congregational Offices (1Co 12:28-30) are not one and the same. Many (or the majority) still think that Paul has given us three separate lists of ‘spiritual gifts’ such as with Rom 12, 1Cor 12 & Eph 4 – try and explain that to a collection of AoG pastors, undoubtedly they would look at me with blank faces.

Most individuals who are a part of the PCM struggle to even understand the difference between a Manifestation of the Spirit and a natural talent, for most of them anything and everything is a ‘spiritual gift’ from having a good singing voice to dancing the tango. Paul never even uses this expression except for Rom 1:11 where it doesn’t even refer to a Spiritual Manifestation. When it comes to that of ‘signs and wonders’ we then move onto a virtual meltdown of understanding.

For most within the PCM they still think that the role of the Pastor is a Biblical Office which is far from the truth; in most part we tend to talk as Full Gospel believers but think and minister as mere evangelicals, so in spite of all our talk and carry on about all believers being priests and that we are all endowed by the Spirit for ministry we still tend to rely on the dictatorial role where one man steps in and becomes the all-in-all; on top of this we quite often find that the 'pastor' is terrified that some lay rank-and-file upstart will dare rise up who can effectively minister as a prophet or work in the area of healings and miracles . Now that feels much better!

The complexity and general lack of understanding regarding the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit and the 8 Congregational Offices can be seen on an earlier topic http://www.christianforums.com/t7481629-8/ I jumped in at post 74 where you and I and a few others had some interesting discussions. This is a good example of how things can become lost on a forum such as this. To my absolute amazement, not one single person made comment to the schematic I supplied on 1Co 12 (post # 89).




So where shall we begin! ____________

If we start at 1Co 12:1 we encounter what may be the first obstacle that many come to where most translations improperly transliterate περὶ δὲ τῶν πνευματικῶν αδελπηοι as either spiritual gifts, spiritual people or the less insufferable but still errant things of the Spirit. Any serious commentary on 1st Corinthians will always devote a good amount of time discussing how πνευματικῶν should be translated but most will come to the position that it is hard to decide on.
If they were to follow Paul’s use of πνευματικῶν they would transliterate it as “Now brothers, about spiritual things (or matters) .... This stops the reader from presuming that the next three chapters deal only with ‘spiritual gifts’ as Paul is addressing not only the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit but also with the various forms (diversities) of ministry we have in Christ and with the 8 Congregational Offices along with putting in place a few corrections for the Corinthians that also need to be applied in many of our contemporary PCM congregations.

"we have to get away from the problematic transational inconsistencies with our various Bible translations"

Whatever THAT Means - nothing is given to illustrate any of that.

Again, I can forget that most people will not be conversant with these issues; they are admittedly things that most Sunday speakers tend not to address or for that matter even understand. With due reference to the previous material, we can also take a look at how the many translations (including the NIV) love to throw in the word gift before some of the MotS and where the word is totally unwarranted as with;

• 1 Co 12:4 gifts for charismaton
• 1Co 12:9 gifts for charismaton
• 1Co 12:28 gifts for charismaton
• 1Co 12:30 gifts for charismaton
• 1Co 12:31 The translations close up chapter 12 by again unwisely using gifts to define the Congregational Offices.

As for the term miraculous signs this doesn’t even exist in the Greek NT. The word miracle or miraculous is a Latin term that was placed before the Greek semeion which means sign. As not all signs are as dramatic as the Lord turning water into wine or when he raised Lazarus from the dead after several days, the various translators inserted miracles to differentiate be incorrectly insert this word so in John 2:23 we find the NIV translators incorrectly referring to his clearing out of the temple as a miraculous sign.

Then of course we can look at how the various translations transliterate the Greek words, semeion (GK4952), teras (GK5469) and dunamis (GK1539) or should I say swap around when it comes to how they so easily use the same English word for each of the three Greek words – it’s enough to give you a headache when you start checking out some translations against the Greek.

A good example of how the author of Hebrew differentiates between that of signs, wonders, various miracles and distributions of the Holy Spirit can be found in Heb 2:4. The NIV (and other) translations improperly insert gifts before Holy Spirit but this is another matter.

"In my 37 years within the Full Gospel I have never witnessed any Signs & Wonders, nor do I ever expect to do so at least while I reside in Australia."

Which is an illustration of my initial contention - YOU don't expect to EVER see anything miraculous in Australia, and as a result of that, you've concocted a "Theological Rationalization" so that you don't have to be concerned about that lack of OVERT Spiritual activity.

Happens all the time, y'all. That's how Visible church theology works.

As you can see, if you are using the word miraculous as it sometimes precedes sign/s then of course you are using a quirky term that is only used by some translators. If you were to use the word to translate the Greek of 1Co 12:10 ὲνεργεμ́ατα δυνάμεων which means ‘workings of powers’ and not miraculous powers then I will agree with you – how do you use the terms miracle and miraculous? Up to about a month ago I had no idea how I used them myself but as I suspected there were some translational issues at play I did the research. I have complete confidence that my research (with a bit more detail) would be more than adequate for a doctoral dissertion.

What I usually say in this regard, is that as a suburban Christian that I do not expect to see any ‘signs and wonders’ within any Western suburban setting; though an occasional and rare intervention by the Lord cannot be completely ruled out. I have certainly never seen any evidence of a (miraculous) sign or wonder here in Australia or the US other than say dear old Benny Hinns claim that he once grew wings and flew to the moon and back.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I have seen the individual who was raised from the dead 12 hours after he was legally pronounced dead (along with his documentation) but I would not call this a sign or wonder, though some could well argue against my position. So even though I do expect to see the dead raised, this in my view would only count as a miracle and I doubt if it is has any definite sign & wonders application. If say a number were raised from the dead in a cemetery then this would definitely be a sign and wonder.

Hope this brief explanation helps to explain my position.

----

PS: I no longer post on the C_ _M website forum as there are too many cessationist odd-bods trolling through the Full Gospel thread; of course it does not help that the main mod for the thread is also a cessationist. Overall I feel that the style and purpose of C_ _M is destructive.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"This stops the reader from presuming that the next three chapters deal only with ‘spiritual gifts’ as Paul is addressing not only the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit but also with the various forms (diversities) of ministry we have in Christ and with the 8 Congregational Offices along with putting in place a few corrections for the Corinthians that also need to be applied in many of our contemporary PCM congregations."

Some time ago after over a year teaching "Spiritual Basics" to a Bible study filled with folks from the "United Church of Christ" (which is probably the MOST "Theologically liberal group in the 'states"), God pointed me to 1 Cor 12 as subject material, and I thought (with some excitement) that I would be teaching on the "Gifts".

But He told me to READ IT AGAIN, and when I did I realized that the "Spirituals" and "Ministries" weren't really the subject of the next two chapters at all. Paul was correcting the HORRENDOUS PRIDEFUL ATTITUDE of the Corinthian Church related to the distribution of empowerments in their midst. The "list of 9" is really nothing more than some "sermon illustrations" tossed on the table as frame of reference.

The MESSAGE IS: HOW DARE YOU TAKE PRIDE in the empowerments of the Holy Spirit - as though somehow YOU had something to do with the ministry that results. HOW DARE you look at the person who "speaks in tongues" as INFERIOR to the one who manifests Healings, or Miraculous phenomena. HOW DARE you say to this Brother/Sister "I HAVE NO NEED OF YOU!!!". The Holy Spirit distributes the temporary empowerments to minister to the "Body of Christ" - as he wills.

Simple as that.

Needless to say I never looked at 1 Cor 12,13 again in the same light (and I survived the Bible study without getting lynched - and many after).

I DON'T waste time categorizing "God's Ministries" beyond teaching that the "Spirituals" - "Interpretation, Prophesy, etc. Are as easily manifested by an A$$, (or a fish) as by a Human, and have NO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER to the "Spiritual condition" Theological Knowledge", or "maturity" of the Christian who's manifesting them (beyond his obedience to the unction of the Spirit).

The "Ministry gifts" - positions of leadership in the "body", on the other hand ARE more related to the FRUIT of the Spirit in the individual, and DIRECTLY related to his personal Spiritual development, and relationship with God. The PERSON with his callings is the "Gift" to the church.

I don't bother with "9 of these", and "27 of them", because NONE of the lists are inclusive - and there are myriads of individual ministries which humans take great pleasure in categorizing, and placing artificial limitations on as they construct their beauracracies.

 

[Intheboat]

"This stops the reader from presuming that the next three chapters deal only with ‘spiritual gifts’ as Paul is addressing not only the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit but also with the various forms (diversities) of ministry we have in Christ and with the 8 Congregational Offices along with putting in place a few corrections for the Corinthians that also need to be applied in many of our contemporary PCM congregations."

Some time ago after over a year teaching "Spiritual Basics" to a Bible study filled with folks from the "United Church of Christ" (which is probably the MOST "Theologically liberal group in the 'states"), God pointed me to 1 Cor 12 as subject material, and I thought (with some excitement) that I would be teaching on the "Gifts".

But He told me to READ IT AGAIN, and when I did I realized that the "Spirituals" and "Ministries" weren't really the subject of the next two chapters at all. Paul was correcting the HORRENDOUS PRIDEFUL ATTITUDE of the Corinthian Church related to the distribution of empowerments in their midst. The "list of 9" is really nothing more than some "sermon illustrations" tossed on the table as frame of reference.

The MESSAGE IS: HOW DARE YOU TAKE PRIDE in the empowerments of the Holy Spirit - as though somehow YOU had something to do with the ministry that results. HOW DARE you look at the person who "speaks in tongues" as INFERIOR to the one who manifests Healings, or Miraculous phenomena. HOW DARE you say to this Brother/Sister "I HAVE NO NEED OF YOU!!!". The Holy Spirit distributes the temporary empowerments to minister to the "Body of Christ" - as he wills.

Simple as that.

Needless to say I never looked at 1 Cor 12,13 again in the same light (and I survived the Bible study without getting lynched - and many after).

I DON'T waste time categorizing "God's Ministries" beyond teaching that the "Spirituals" - "Interpretation, Prophesy, etc. Are as easily manifested by an A$$, (or a fish) as by a Human, and have NO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER to the "Spiritual condition" Theological Knowledge", or "maturity" of the Christian who's manifesting them (beyond his obedience to the unction of the Spirit).

The "Ministry gifts" - positions of leadership in the "body", on the other hand ARE more related to the FRUIT of the Spirit in the individual, and DIRECTLY related to his personal Spiritual development, and relationship with God. The PERSON with his callings is the "Gift" to the church.

I don't bother with "9 of these", and "27 of them", because NONE of the lists are inclusive - and there are myriads of individual ministries which humans take great pleasure in categorizing, and placing artificial limitations on as they construct their beauracracies.

This is very interesting this Thread.

May I ask please what verses show or what are the Ministry Gifts?

 

[Biblicist]

This is very interesting this Thread.

May I ask please what verses show or what are the Ministry Gifts?

Hi,

For those of us who have spent a fair amount of time within a classic-Pentecostal denomination, we will most likely have been raised on the concept of the so called 'Five-Fold Ministries' or 'Ascension Ministries as per Eph 4:11 but this list should not be considerd to be a 'list of spiritual gifts' - contrary to popular belief;

• Apostle
• Prophet
• Evangelist
• Shepherd (aka pastor)
• Teacher

So when you see or hear this term it is being applied to these five roles.

Added to this is the notion that they are leadership based which is not a concept found in Ephesians or for that matter elsewhere in the Scriptures. Some groups may attempt to tie the two distinct roles of the shepherd and teacher together so that you get the pastor-teacher category but this is merely a desperate attempt to establish the Office of the Pastor which is not found within the Scriptures.

You will encounter the pastor-teacher model within the more traditional denominations (usually Calvinist or Reformed) whereas the Five-fold model is certainly common within most Pentecostal circles and probably with some Evangelical denominations as well.

In 1Co 12:7-11 Paul tells us that there are 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (aka spiritual gifts) which is an exhaustive list and they are distributed throughout the congregation primarily for personal ministry and in 12:28 Paul prescribes 8 Congregational Offices which are intended for use within the Congregational meetings.

These 9 MotS are certainly not leadership based and much the same goes for the Congregational Offices as well; about the only Office that could be leadership based is with that of the apostle but even here this equates with the contemporary role of many (but not all) missionaries, this means that they may not necessarily be a part of a local eldership but they could be deacons.

In Romans 12 we find another set of roles, functions and fruits but the only MotS/Office which is directly related to the Holy Spirit is with that of prophecy. Paul is probably referring to both the MotS and Offices of prophecy; one cannot hold the Office of a prophet without first having the Manifestation of the Spirit of prophecy. We could safely say that Paul is using prophecy as being representative of the other MotS as well.

Hope this helps.