When Exactly Is the Rapture?

[L0U]

Do you have any idea how easy it is to destroy your thought as being not of God of the Bible?

1 Thessalonians 1.10 “The wrath to come” - This is the Great Tribulation. Since the Lord Jesus will deliver us from the wrath to come, we must be raptured before the Great Tribulation.

Wow, just wow.

Get this straight!





1) The great tribulation and the wrath of God are two totally different designations.

The great tribulation is by anti-Christ (Matthew 24:15-21). The wrath of God is the Day of the Lord (Revelation 6:17). The great tribulation by anti-Christ will be cut short for the sake of Christs' elect by the Day of the Lord (Matthew 24:22). In the great tribulation, anti-Christ will exalt himself in the temple of God and be worshipped by the world (2 Thessalonians 2:4) and that BEFORE the Day of the Lord (vs. 3). In the Day of the Lord, the Lord ALONE will be exalted (Isaiah 2:11-12). The Day of the Lord is announced at the openning of the sixth seal (Joel 2:31, Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 6:12-17). The great tribulation has already been occurring on earth before the seventh seal is openned (Revelation 7:14). The seventh seal is the silence before the storm of a vengeful God on a collision coarse with His creation (Zephaniah 1:7).




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That is of coarse unless those wonderful Plymouth Brethren 'divine' otherwise. Right?

You may attempt to "destroy my thought", but His Word is more sure than anything so that it abides forever.

 

[ForeverSaved]

The great tribulation and the wrath of God are two totally different designations.The great tribulation is by anti-Christ (Matthew 24:15-21). The wrath of God is the Day of the Lord (Revelation 6:17). The great tribulation by anti-Christ will be cut short for the sake of Christs' elect by the Day of the Lord (Matthew 24:22). In the great tribulation, anti-Christ will exalt himself in the temple of God and be worshipped by the world (2 Thessalonians 2:4) and that BEFORE the Day of the Lord (vs. 3). In the Day of the Lord, the Lord ALONE will be exalted (Isaiah 2:11-12). The Day of the Lord is announced at the openning of the sixth seal (Joel 2:31, Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 6:12-17). The great tribulation has already been occurring on earth before the seventh seal is openned (Revelation 7:14). The seventh seal is the silence before the storm of a vengeful God on a collision coarse with His creation (Zephaniah 1:7).

Yes, the tribulation the great of the past 20 centuries has been going on, but this does not refer to the Great Tribulation at the consummation of this age. The 7th seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation. The trumpets are loud and the 7th trumpet opens up the 7 bowls which are larger than cups poured silently as though all that happens happens so quickly as if time stands still nearing the end of the Great Tribulation.

If you are going to be so careless as to bear false witness by misreading, then who can help you? In the paragraph, read, "Let me say, though, that such an interpretation of “wrath” here as being the Great Tribulation is incorrect."

1 Thessalonians 1.10 “The wrath to come” - This is the Great Tribulation. Since the Lord Jesus will deliver us from the wrath to come, we must be raptured before the Great Tribulation. Also, 1 Thessalonians 5.9 “For God appointed us not unto wrath” - Once again this “wrath” has reference to the Great Tribulation. Let me say, though, that such an interpretation of “wrath” here as being the Great Tribulation is incorrect. How do we know that this wrath must necessarily be the wrath in the Great Tribulation? And even if it were granted that it is, such an interpretation of this word “wrath” would still be unreasonable because the Great Tribulation, on the one hand, is God’s punishment and wrath coming upon the unbelievers, and on the other hand is Satan’s attack and wrath descending on the believers. When Satan assaults the believers, the latter enter into the experience of the Great Tribulation but do not come under the wrath of God.

That is of coarse unless those wonderful Plymouth Brethren 'divine' otherwise. Right?

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

You may attempt to "destroy my thought", but His Word is more sure than anything so that it abides forever.

His Word I have given you destroyed your thought. Let it go.

 

[GraceInHim]

Pre-trib Rapture (Catching Away)... Peter spoke about the Devil sowing so much confusion in so many in this that those who do not believe this, will not be ready for it...

Jesus spoke about this and Paul so much...

Go to Genesis 6.. God is merciful and loving.. that he told Noah to build the Ark, now that Noah and his family was saved.. they were in the Ark above all who went through the Tribulation and when it was finished, the Ark came to land... just as the we will leave and come back with Christ.

Just as the NT catching away the rightous before an act of his wrath.

Genesis ch 19 - God discusses this with Abraham before he goes to Sodom and Abraham intercedes for the rightous (Lot & his family), once again catching away before his wrath...

Verse 22 of Genesis 19 - The Angel said he cannot destroy until you are out

Rapture scriptures - Luke ch 21vs28, 21:36 Titus 2:13 Hebrews 9:29

Jesus said this generation will see this, and when we do, we must watch and look for it...look for what? Jesus said - lift up heads because your redemption is near...

Rebudding of the Fig Tree, is Israel's re-birth - which happened in 1948...and the most important piece of land Mt. Zion in 1967 --- this happening was never before - talking about over 2500 years ago, was Israel ever a Country--> if anyone says this is not Israel, then they do not know Jeremiah entire chapter 24, clearly establishes the rebirth of Israel as the fig tree. Read this and you will see the truth.

God would never judge the Rightous with the wicked.. not ever.

 

[L0U]

Yes, the tribulation the great of the past 20 centuries has been going on...

Are you saying that the sixth seal has already been opened?

 

[L0U]

Genesis ch 19 - God discusses this with Abraham before he goes to Sodom and Abraham intercedes for the rightous (Lot & his family), once again catching away before his wrath...

Verse 22 of Genesis 19 - The Angel said he cannot destroy until you are out

Ok. But the great tribulation is not God's wrath.

If you don't believe me then hear the fifth seal martyrs:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

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[ForeverSaved]

Are you saying that the sixth seal has already been opened?

Of course. Though it has not all been completed. Though I am not Pentecostal, Perry Stone said some good things here,

See program #267 I think it is,
http://www.perrystone.org/video.cfm

 

[GraceInHim]

[/b]


Ok. But the great tribulation is not God's wrath.



If you don't believe me then hear the fifth seal martyrs:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."



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I read Prophecies from the OT and some NT... OT does not lie... Israel will be re-gathered and when they do.. from all corners of the earth.. we will be that generation... very simple... this never happened until 1948-1967..

I will be back on tomorrow.. I have tons of vs to show this is at hand.. the past year ought to say something.. and ny vision came one year ago.. which brought me to Christ in God Almighty... what has happened since a year ago has not happpened for decades... the earth is grumbling... look at the earthquake website... too much is going on and the birth pains are coming closer and closer... I will see you tomorrow.. nite nite and God Bless all.

 

[L0U]

I read Prophecies from the OT and some NT... OT does not lie... Israel will be re-gathered and when they do.. from all corners of the earth.. we will be that generation... very simple... this never happened until 1948-1967..

I have no problem with that Grace. But that has nothing to do with difference between the great tribulation and the Day of the Lord.

 

[L0U]

Of course[the sixth seal has been openned].

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

So I guess you must just be spiritualizing this?

Especially when Jesus said that this would come AFTER the abomination of desolation and AFTER the great tribulation.

 

[ForeverSaved]

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" So I guess you must just be spiritualizing this? Especially when Jesus said that this would come AFTER the abomination of desolation and AFTER the great tribulation.

In the video I led you to, no spiritualizing. You're just unable to see what is going on right now.

Jesus did not say this would come after the abomination of desolation or after the Great Tribulation. JOel 3.16-17 and 2.30-31 describe what will happen before the great and terrible day of the Lord in advance of the Tribulation. Matt. 24.29-30 explains what comes to pass after.

This part points to the front end of the Tribulation, and Rev. 11.19 is pointing to the back end of the Tribulation. This agrees with Matthew 24.

It helps to see that Rev. 6 to 11 are the major points of end-times, while 12 to 19 give the details of those major points.

 

[exodus19]

In the video I led you to, no spiritualizing. You're just unable to see what is going on right now.

Jesus did not say this would come after the abomination of desolation or after the Great Tribulation. JOel 3.16-17 and 2.30-31 describe what will happen before the great and terrible day of the Lord in advance of the Tribulation. Matt. 24.29-30 explains what comes to pass after.

This part points to the front end of the Tribulation, and Rev. 11.19 is pointing to the back end of the Tribulation. This agrees with Matthew 24.

It helps to see that Rev. 6 to 11 are the major points of end-times, while 12 to 19 give the details of those major points.

looks like you boys have been busy since i left this site months ago. Someone here has been doing a good job of rehashing my posts and coming up with some relatively close expressions of the time frame for splitting apart of the Book of Revelation.
wow! we might actually get somewhere here!!!!

Somehere back there in the history of christian forums you probably can find this division, written. on one of my posts. But you won't be able to get it completely right without me. Besides like i said before this intermet stuff will never be able to completely put it all in perspective, just as prophecy says.

what is this 'video I led you to'?

keep coming there guys, stay the course and we'll soon be landing.
the mystery is unflolding.

peace, my friends

and to all canuks too

 

[ForeverSaved]

But you won't be able to get it completely right without me.

Let this pride die on the cross.

 

[exodus19]

bin there done that,
and back again to reclaim those who portend to be saved.

 

[ForeverSaved]

Rapture is before the Tribulation and before the bowls near the end of the Tribulation. The Tribulation is 7 years, just like all the other weeks are each 7 years. There are 7 trumpets to the Tribulation, and 7 bowls in the 7th trumpet. The 7th seal opens up the 7 trumpets. The 7 seals are these past 20 centuries up to the end of the 7th bowl. 1/7th of the church that is alive at the first rapture is raptured at the first rapture, and at the 7th trumpet is the final rapture.

 

[GaryVance]

Attention pre-tribbers! You can debate this till Jesus comes back and I am sure you will because we are not leaving this planet (short of dying) till He returns. You can hope and pray for "rapture" to spare you tribulation. I have some news for you. Your arguments, prayers and hopes will not cancel the Word of God nor will they cancel the prayer of Jesus (John 17:15) when He prayed for His disciples to not be taken out of this world, but to be protected from the evil one.

That has always been His way. He keeps His people through hard times. He keeps them even while His wrath is poured out. Consider the instance of Israelites dwelling in the midst of Egyptians while God sent judgment. He has a way of keeping His children and accurately delivering punishment to their godless neighbors.

I am amazed at how deep you guys go into a debate without a clear point of entry. There is no scripture given that launches the premise for a pre-trib rapture. A student of the Bible will never independently discover this idea by simpy reading the Bible because it isn't there to be found. One must start with the idea of a pre-trib rapture and then the quest for supportive scripture is underway and you are off to the races. Would any of you please return to the starting point of this debate and produce one single scripture that plainly states that God has prophesied or promised the rapture before the tribulation?

Please for just a few moments go back to square one and pretend you are presenting this doctrine to a new believer. Where is your Biblical starting point?

 

[GaryVance]

Attention pre-tribbers! Please reflect for a moment back to the inception of this idea in your own life. When did you first learn of this idea? Who brought it to you? Did you first hear about it in a sermon? Was it someone on tv? Did you read about it in a book? Or did you independtly discover it through your study of God's Word? I have yet to meet one Christian who independtly came to this conclusion. It always starts outside of the Bible and then works its way into the scriptures. That is exactly the opposite from how God would lead us to discover His truth. I contend that we must be able to independtly arrive at this conclusion by Bible study alone or it is a suspect conclusion at best and heresy at worst.

Never never never start with an idea and then try to find verses to prove it. Let the Bible give the idea and then search the scriptures to see if it is substantiated by further study. Utilize the primary texts and work your way to the secondary texts.

There are few primary texts dealing with the rapture. I am talking about the texts that actually describe it and offer context. Please start there.

 

[lecoop]

Coop,
I believe that you are simply repeating what you have been taught concerning this.
John Darby (1800's) was the first in church history to teach that not only Matthew 24 but all of Matthew was for the Jews.








To this it was responded by one of his peers:

Benjamin W. Newton (1805-1898):




"The Secret Rapture was bad enough, but John Darby's equally novel idea that the book of Matthew is on 'Jewish' ground instead of 'Church' ground was even worse" (Prophetic Developments, p. 29).




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The reasons why this assumption came under harsh criticism are Biblically substantial.





1) Matthew 24 was a PRIVATE discourse between the Lord and those would become foundational to His Church.(Matthew 24:3)

The church was for the most part a mystery at this point in time. Beside, the other argument is just as valid: that God was speaking to Jews about the end of their age - since that is what they ask Him.

2) It is christians who are afflicted and killed for Christs' Namesake, not Jews. (vs. 9)I can agree with you here.

3) It is the christian 'agape' (not the love which is of the world) that will grow cold. Do a study on the 'agape' and you will see that it is never connected with anyone but Christ and His church. (vs. 12) If you say so.

4) The elect are the elect of Jesus when He comes, wether Jew or Gentile. They are the elect of Christ.
Both the Jews and the Christians are called the elect. So which is Jesus speaking about? Or is He speaking about both? Jesus speaks about time here, and what He says is chronological. He starts with the time they were living in, and goes forward in time. We have seen nation rise against nation, and we have seen famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes. This is where we are living right now. However, Jesus did not cover the events of the first 3 1/2 years of the 70th week, but jumped right into the middle, with the abomination of Desolation. By the way, this week is called "jacob's trouble" for a reason: it is all about the Jews. He goes on to say "For then shall be great tribulation," and on to "immediately after the tribulation of those days." Where is the church during this 70th week? In heaven. Jesus does not even hint of His coming for his church. What happens after tribulation? He comes back and sends his angels out. What do they do? They gather the tares (parable of the tares) which Jesus does not mention, and they gather the elect.

I know that many believe that this is the rapture. It is not, and indeed cannot be. Where are these elect gathered from? From one end of heaven to the other......but post-trib believes say that the spirits of the saints are coming with Jesus to meet Him in the air. Therefore, why would the angels have to gather the elect from one end of heaven to the other? It is written that He comes with 10,000 of His saints. There is a problem then, with this being the rapture. It just does not fit. The next problem is this: if the rapture takes place at this moment when Jesus returns, then all the righteous people receive their ressurrection bodys, and will become judges during the 1000 year reign. All the unrighteous will be cast into hell. Where then, will be the flesh and blood people that will enter into the kingdom? The next problem is the sheep and goat judgement: where are the sheep? They have all been raptured! Therefore, I maintain that for the most part, the Olivet discourse is speaking about the 70th week, and the time leading up to it, from the perspective of the Jews. My beliefs here are from my own study.


If you are sure that this discourse is about the church, or the rapture, can you show something more?
Anyway, study these things a bit more! : -))

Coop

Is there any other Name under heaven by which a Jew must be saved? But that would be another gospel.

Anyway, study these things a bit more.

This would not post, so I have added this sentence.

 

[albertmc]

Whether you believe the rapture is at the Second Coming as I do or seven years prior as others do, can we least agree that if you find yourself floating in the air surrounded by believing Christians and Jesus is there, it's probably the rapture. At that point we'll let Christ choose which direction to travel next.

 

[lecoop]

Lou said

Very well, but if I am taken 'out of this world' I must have of nessecity been in this world. If I am taken "out of the hour of trial" I must have of nessecity been in the hour of trial. Just like the great multitude of Revelation 7 who are seen coming "out of" ('ek') the great tribulation.

I have looked diligently for the "the" but alas, it is not there. This great crowd came out of great tribulation, but not "the great tribulation;" not out from the final 1260 days of the 70th week. Why do I believe this? In the first place, if the word "great" was not in the text, I believe almost all people would believe that this great crowd would be the raptured church. However, we do find the word great there. It is my belief that any time people are being killed for their testimony, it is great tribulation, at least for them! Today there are several places in the world where people are dying only because they will not submit to Allah, and it will continually get worse. Next, it is the place in the Revelation that John sees this great crowd, Notice, it is just after he sees and hears the angel telling the four angels not to hurt the earth until the 144,000 are sealed. Now, just guessing, and not thinking about it first, wouldn't it make good sense to seal people for their protection, before the earth is hurt? Therefore, with diligently study, we find that the 70th week has not even started yet, when John sees this huge crowd. It is the raptured church.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Foreversaved said,

There is no justification for apostia meaning rapture.

The justification for translating any verse into one of several meanings, is the context.

Notice what Paul says here:

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Therefore, all we need to do is look back and see what Paul said that would be "witholding" or hindering the antichrist from being revealed. Before we look back though, let's get a clearer picture of what we will be looking for.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

Therefore, we know that whatever is keeping or witholding the antichrist from being revealed is going to be "taken out of the way," and then, the revealing will happen. Now let's look back before verse 6, since Paul said that now we know. Why would he say that? Because he just told people about something or someone being "taken out..."

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Nope, nothing taken out here. Let's go back further.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Nope, nothing taken out here either! This is just a discription of the antichrist.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Is something "taken out" here? Most definitely! Apostasia can be translated as a "departure."

The Latin Vulgate used "discessio" in Latin, which has a meaning of a "spacial departure". This word was translated as "departure" in sereral older bibles. Therefore, I conclude that "departure" or "taken out" fits these verses much better than a "falling away." I see the church growing by leaps and bounds, not falling away.

Coop