Coop said:
Nice post - just your viewpoint. Suppose you present your view to a new believer? What is your starting point?
Coop
Happy to oblige Coop! First, I just want to say thanks for the civil dialog. This is blessed fun. None of us should pretend we have it all figured out. I used to believe in the pre-trib rapture and even taught it for years. I relied mostly on books I read and I havent seen anything new in this thread from that perspective. A wise old missionary gently challenged me on the matter and then I stumbled my way out of pre-trib to post doing independent study.
Please lets focus our attention on the most important point in the midst of all this discussion. Jesus is coming again! Nothing in the realm of our belief can alter that dominant fact. That is the focus of all the primary texts related to this subject. Rapture and resurrection are merely wonderful side effects of this glorious event. What one believes about the timing of the rapture has no bearing on who qualifies to go or when. What we believe about Christ is the deciding criteria. His grace and mercy are the only things giving any of us the worthiness to receive His rewards. I suppose that puts me at odds with those who believe in a first rapture for worthy saints only. I dont believe in elitism in the Body of Christ. There is Jesus exalted and then there is us. The kingdom of God is not multi-tiered like the world.
Here's where I start when breaking the subject to a new believer or anyone else:
Matthew 24: 27-31 and Mark 13: 24-27 are some of the few primary passages dealing with this issue. Verse 31 in Matthew and verses 26 and 27 in Mark are even more focalized on this point. Again, Marks passage more fully implies rapture and resurrection. I call these primary scriptures because they are pointedly descriptive of our subject. Matthew 31 mentions a trumpet call heralding this event. Matthew 24:29 establishes the context of this event as it relates to tribulation. This is a spectacular event and not hidden.
I cannot use the Olivet discourse as a "starting point," becuase I do not believe this is even speaking of the church. And my logic will not (can not) place the rapture here anyway, for then it destroys the picture of the end, i.e., the sheep and goat judgement, and the beginning of the 1000 year reign. With the rapture separating the sheep and goats, there is then no need for this judgement. With the rapture changing all beleivers into ressurection bodies, I can find no one to enter the kingdom. Last, it doesn't seem to fit the rapture that the angels would even be involved, much less have to search the utmost heaven for the elect, since they are to return with Jesus to get their bodies. It seems much more logical to me that this is referring to Jews. After all, God did promise to bring them all back.
1 Thess. 4: 13 thru 1 Thess. 5: 11 is another primary passage with 4:16-18 being the focal point. The trumpet call is mentioned again here and also the voice of the archangel as heralding this event. The word meet found in verse 17 is an interesting study in itself. The Greek word apantesis is used only three times in scripture. The other two instances perhaps offer some insight to this passage. It implies a delegation going outside of a city to meet someone of importance and then returning to the point where they left.
You are adding the the meaning of the word meet, which is simply to meet. There is no meaning whatsoever in this greek word as to what happens after the meeting takes place. You cannot get " and then returning to the point where they left" from this Greek word. It is just wishful thinking. (IMHO looking at every Greek/English lexicon I can find)
The entire second chapter of 2 Thessalonians is an important text. It opens with two things being mentioned. The first is the coming of Jesus and the second is our being gathered to him. Verse three tells us that these two things happen on the same day and it cannot happen until two things occur. One is the rebellion and the other is the antichrist being revealed. This is consistent with Matthew 24: 12 where the love of most Christians grow cold and verse 15 where the antichrist is revealed. These two events along with much deception and persecution are consistently found as preludes to Christ coming again.
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I do not read this as you are apparently reading it. Some people had apparently told these folks (either verbally or by a letter) that the "day of Christ" had already happened, and they had missed it (hense missed the rapture). Paul is straightening their thinking out. Paul says that the day of Christ ( I am guessing the 24 hour day that Christ returns) cannot happen until the man of sin is revealed. Does Paul know that the day of Christ will be about 1260 days after this? I would guess so. So what happens on the same day? This text is just not conclusive. Yes, Paul's subject here is the "Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to meet Him." (Wemouth) But these two things are different than the "day of Christ" as Paul says that certain things must happen between this coming of the Lord and the day of Christ. The beast must come between these two events. This seems to speak to me of "two comings." One to meet the saints, and one on the day of christ. Not only that, but if you start at verse 6, and read this backwards, you will find what it is that is "taken out" so that the beast can be revealed. Paul said, "now you know," meaning that he had just told them! What was "taken out?" The departure in verse 3.
1 Corinthians 15: 52 is another primary text. We find the trumpet again and resurrection and rapture. It should be noted that Paul calls this the last trumpet.
Yes, I agree, but does Paul mean the last trumpet ever to be heard on planet earth? Of course not. He means the last trumpet of a series. Now, did he mean the series of 7 trumpets of Revelation? I doubt that seriously, because Rev was written many years after Paul wrote this, and the trumpet in Rev seems to be for a different purpose.
There are no other primary texts readily coming to mind. I have no notes or some book to refer to, so I might be overlooking one. All the primary texts offering a glimpse into the rapture are consistently pointing to the same scenario with the same ear-marks. We find Christ returning at the conclusion of great calamity. There is a trumpet heralding His return along with resurrection and rapture. I simply disagree.
Lets look at a few secondary texts that are supportive of the primary passages.
Most folks overlook a passage in 1 Cor. 15: 22-24. It gives a plain sequence of Christ coming and resurrecting those who belong to Him and then the end will come. There is an interesting tie in to the last trumpet here. Rev. 11: 15 reveals the seventh and last trumpet prophesied. This trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of the world fall to Jesus. When does that happen? At his return. This Corinthian text also alludes to the same taking of dominion by Christ.
I disagree again. The seventh trumpet is at the exact midpoint of the seventieth week; indeed it is the marker for the midpoint. The "return" happens "immediately (a day, aweek?) after the tribulation (70th week) has ended with the 7th vial. So this trumpet is not at His return.
Hebrews 9:28 says He came once and will appear a second time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. There is no mention of a third time. That is one reason why His coming again is often called The Second Coming.
This is a good point. However, it seems that His "second coming" is in two phases.
Daniel 12: 1&2 is a cool passage and one of the first real clues appearing in scripture dealing with our subject. This is a strong secondary text and borders on being a primary one. We find the terrible time of tribulation that Jesus prophesies in Matthew 24:21. We find Gods people delivered and the resurrection of the dead.
I agree with the "cool!" Daniel was such an awesome man! Yes, I agree that Michael will stand up. We see that very near the midpoint in Revelation, the devil and his bunch are cast out of heaven. This is obviously where Michael stands up. However, who is this ressurection about? Obviously the Old Testament saints. The last verse also goes along with this: that Daniel will "stand in his lot," at the end. Where do we see this in Revelation? I hope you can find it! : >)))
John 17:15 is Jesus praying for the Father not to take His disciples out of the world, but to protect them.
This of course could mean the 2000 years leading up to the final week. God could have chosen to rapture us the moment that each person believed. In this case, the rapture would be an exception to this verse.
You know something Coop, I cant for the life of me remember how I used to open up my teachings on pre-trib rapture. Thats why I throw down the challenge for someone to bring forth the Biblical starting point. As a pastor, I strongly believe in supporting any teaching I do with solid scripture backing. The above primary texts are all good for initiating my current take on it. Once I locked in on this perspective I have never found an inconsistency in any other texts that would lead me to believe otherwise.
I know know where I start teaching on Revelation, since God gave me revvelation, I will show exactly what He showed me, in the same order! That way, I can't go wrong. As for the rapture, It is my belief that God meant for it to be a secret, so much so that people have searched the scriptures for centures, and still cannot pinpoint it! I don't even try, except to show that John sees the chruch in heaven twice in Revelation. Two years ago, the HS pointed me to these books, and for two years, I could read nothing else. I read and read, and meditated: I bugged God about little things, like "God, why would you even bother to tell us that John wept? That seems like such a funny thing to include in this book." I bugged God about this for two weeks, and finally he answered. I determined to enter this study with a blank plate, as much as possible. I only wanted to know what God said, not what someone else said. In the end, I wrote a book on the Olivet discourse, and one on Revelation. I am seeking a publisher now. I found it much easier to write the books than write a book query!
Pre-trib rapture can be supported only by peripheral texts. One must start with the idea first because there is no place revealed in the Word that would initiate this concept. Every scripture given for pre-trib positions can easily have alternative interpretations. Sadly, the primary texts on the subject are then relegated to the periphery in a vain attempt to make them say something other than what they plainly reveal.
We find the rapture clearly given by Paul, and only Paul, because God gave him this revelation. However, God just did not see fit to tell us when! I personally think the rapture happens at the time of the great earthquake that immediately preceeds the start of the 70th week. I am convinced that it is not where God calls John to heaven!
Hal Lindsey was telling us in 1973 that Jesus could be coming back at any second. 1948 and Israels rebirth was a major factor in that notion. 1988 was seen as a target year for the rapture because forty years would measure a biblical generation. We need to stay focused on Jesus and do what we can every day while seeking His kingdom. Harder times are coming and we better toughen up. Standing firm to the end is a recurring exhortation found in many of the texts I mentioned above.
