When Exactly Is the Rapture?

[L0U]

Hey coop, I;m working on answers to you first questions but I'll deal with the following first.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Is something "taken out" here? Most definitely! Apostasia can be translated as a "departure."

The Latin Vulgate used "discessio" in Latin, which has a meaning of a "spacial departure". This word was translated as "departure" in sereral older bibles. Therefore, I conclude that "departure" or "taken out" fits these verses much better than a "falling away." I see the church growing by leaps and bounds, not falling away.

When Jerome translated the Vulgate he indeed did translate the Greek word 'apostasia' with the Latin word 'discessio'. But what I wish to clear up is what H Wayne House neglects to say.

1) Jerome also used 'discessio' in Acts 21:21
Not because it means a 'spatial departure', but for doctrinal departure.

2) Jerome did not use it in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 because he wanted to show a 'spatial departure'. For he was one of those who sounded a certain warning concerning the time of anti-Christ:

"Yet it behoves us to know that the enemy is wont to counterfeit this salutary advent of Christ with cunning fraud in order to deceive the faithful, and in the place of the Son of Man, Who is looked for as coming in the majesty of His Father, to prepare the Son of Perdition with prodigies and lying signs, that instead of Christ he may introduce Antichrist into the world; of whom the Lord Himself warned the Jews beforehand in the Gospels, "Because I am come in My Father's Name, and ye received Me not, another will come in his own name, and him ye will receive."
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So, we can see that even Jerome, like John (1 John 2:18) expected antiChrist to come before Christ.


How is it that John did not expect a secret coming of Christ before anti-Christ? Maybe it was so secret that he did'nt even know about it.

3) You need stop blindly accepting what your being told without further research into the subjects. As of those "older bibles":

2 Thessalonians 2:3 of the Wycliffe Bible:

"[That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition,..."
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Wycliff is not speaking of a 'spatial departure' from one place to another but from adherence to rebellion, as well as the other translators. They may well have translated the greek word 'apostasia' as 'departure' but the intent of meaning remained in tact. Proof of this can be seen in Wycliffs' other writings:

John Wycliffe 1320-1384-

“Wherefore, let us pray to God that He keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world.” (The Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wycliffe)
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The said thing is that the Word of God meaning is being interpreted the very same way that other writers meaning are interpreted. Indeed, "Truth is fallen in the streets."

"Apostasia" never had the meaning of a spacial departure, i.e. going from one place to another, until it was so used in the classical Greek first found in 'The Assumption of the Virgin' in the 5th century. It had always had the meaning of religious rebellion or political revolt in the Koine Greek in which both the Septuagint and New Testament were written. It was never used in the Septuagint (Greek transation of the Hebrew Old Teastament) as a term describing a 'spacial departure' nor was it used in the New Testament as such.

Thomas Ice and company have not a clue about what their teaching. Their simply reaching for straws in an attempt to save their dying idol, pre-tribulationism. Do not buy what these men are teaching; Wuest, English, Ice , Jones, any of them.
Why men will seek to change the Perfect Word of God by adding something that is simply not there, I have to hold suspect.


For an example of making foolishness of and corupting the Word of God, I quote here Bob Jones from Biblefood.com:

"In 2 Thess 2:3, Paul proves that they have not missed the Rapture, that the Rapture is still future. He says "Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day ( the "day" of the coming of the Lord Jesus, and our gathering together unto Him" in 2 Thess 2:1) shall not come, except there come a "falling away" first, and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
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Now, are we to re-write the Scripture to say:

"The day of Christ's coming and the rapture cannot come until the rapture comes first and that man of sin be revealed."
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Thats like saying, "He won't come to Jerusalem until He comes to Jerusalem first."??????????????????



Is this how we handle the Word of the One Who bought us with His Own blood?
Don't let the Word of God be maligned like this.

 

[ForeverSaved]

Suffice it to say simply, first rapture is before the Tribulation and at the end of the Tribulation (just before the bowls).

First rapture is according to readiness to be received, and the rapture at the end of the Tribulation is for the completion of the general resurrection.

You have seen the key verses for this already.

 

[L0U]

I know that many believe that this is the rapture. It is not, and indeed cannot be. Where are these elect gathered from? From one end of heaven to the other......but post-trib believes say that the spirits of the saints are coming with Jesus to meet Him in the air. Therefore, why would the angels have to gather the elect from one end of heaven to the other? It is written that He comes with 10,000 of His saints. There is a problem then, with this being the rapture. It just does not fit.

The problem is easily rectified when we see that although His coming happens after the great tribulation, it does not mean it happens at the very end of the 70th week. The Day of the Lord also occurrs within the 70th week.

I have looked diligently for the "the" but alas, it is not there. This great crowd came out of great tribulation, but not "the great tribulation;...

Then look diligently again.
"ek ho thlipses ho megas" or "ek tees thlipseoos tees megalees"

Both literally say, "out of the tribulation the great"
Why the translators of the KJV left the definite article "the" out is anyones presumption.

Next, it is the place in the Revelation that John sees this great crowd, Notice, it is just after he sees and hears the angel telling the four angels not to hurt the earth until the 144,000 are sealed. Now, just guessing, and not thinking about it first, wouldn't it make good sense to seal people for their protection, before the earth is hurt? Therefore, with diligently study, we find that the 70th week has not even started yet, when John sees this huge crowd. It is the raptured church.

But the protection by the sealing is protection from the Day of the Lord which has come to cut short the great tribulation by anti-Christ from which the great multitude was seen coming (ek) out of. Notice also that the four angels are holding back the four winds. Did'nt Jesus say we would be gathered from the four winds?

The great tribulation" and "the wrath of God" are two separate phrases, with two separate meanings. Do you mean by "the great tribulation" the whole 70th week, or just the last half? When does the "wrath of God" start and when does it finish?

Seeing that the Day of the Lord comes to cut short the great tribulation by anti-Christ, and also that it comes 'as a thief in the night', there is no way we can know how long the great tribulation will last. God's wrath is announced at the openning of the sixth seal and begins at the openning of the seventh seal with the trumpets, possibly the seven thunders, and the seven vials. The seven vials are called "the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete."

You have mistakenly aligned Mat 24:29 with the sixth seal, which is am impossibility in time. The sixth seal is broken before the 70th week even starts, and Mat 24:29 is talking about after the 70th week has finished, so you have missed by about 7 years.

This is only a problem with those who consider the great tribulation as being the same as the Day of the Lord or God's wrath. It is the sixth seal that initiates the Day of the Lord.
Look at Isaiah 2:19:

"And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."

When do they do this?

"When he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."

Isaiah 13:9-13
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger."

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When did John see this group, in the timeline of the 70th week? Long before the week even starts. John probably saw this group very shortly after Stephen was martyred.

Uh, John was on the Island of Patmos and was being shown a vision and he was told by the Lord, "What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

Btw, would millions of people disappearing be a great shaking? Suppose the president, the vise president, some of the cabinet, and maybe half of the population of the US disappeared suddenly. Would this be a great shaking? Yes, the rapture will shake the world like the flood, only all those people died. Here they will just walk around in a daze. The great earthquake may be the physical sign of the rapture.

That may very well be.

 

[L0U]

Grace, I see that you listed 1 Thess 5:4-6 as a proof text that the rapture could happen at any moment and Coop agreed with you.
What I want both of you to see is what Paul said would come as a thief, "the Day of the Lord".

Two questions:

1)Do you believe that the rapture occurrs at the Day of the Lord?

2)If so, then how do you justify the belief that the church will be raptured before the revealing of the man of sin which Paul said comes before the Day of the Lord?

 

[GraceInHim]

Grace, I see that you listed 1 Thess 5:4-6 as a proof text that the rapture could happen at any moment and Coop agreed with you.
What I want both of you to see is what Paul said would come as a thief, "the Day of the Lord".

Two questions:

1)Do you believe that the rapture occurrs at the Day of the Lord?

2)If so, then how do you justify the belief that the church will be raptured before the revealing of the man of sin which Paul said comes before the Day of the Lord?

yes, why? because God would never judge the wicked with the good... if so, then why send Jesus in the first place?? why would Jesus talk about the 10 virgins.. 5 who were ready and 5 who were not.... goes on and on...

I have stepped out of blind faith and follow his words only..

peace

 

[L0U]

I have stepped out of blind faith and follow his words only..

Good. Then according to HIS WORD that the Day of the Lord comes after the revealing of the man of sin, it stands to reason that if the rapture occurrs at the Day of the Lord then the rapture must also come after the revealing of the man of sin.


1) Apostacy
2) Revealing of the man of sin
3) Christs' coming and our being gathered together unto Him at the Day of the Lord.

Do you see this?

 

[ForeverSaved]

Paul did speak on the first rapture as did loving John, Matthew, or Luke about the first rapture according to readiness: Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36. Matt. 24.40-41.

 

[ForeverSaved]

Paul makes a very vital point about the first rapture in which he says with the hope of the church is the hope of seeing Christ, not the Antichrist first.

 

[GraceInHim]

[/size]

Good. Then according to HIS WORD that the Day of the Lord comes after the revealing of the man of sin, it stands to reason that if the rapture occurrs at the Day of the Lord then the rapture must also come after the revealing of the man of sin.


1) Apostacy
2) Revealing of the man of sin
3) Christs' coming and our being gathered together unto Him at the Day of the Lord.

Do you see this?

no, first we are catched away... tribulation follows... martyrs killed for not taking the mark... then his return with all redeemed to New Jerusalem

 

[L0U]

no, first we are catched away... tribulation follows... martyrs killed for not taking the mark... then his return with all redeemed to New Jerusalem

But according to HIS WORD the Day of the Lord does not come until AFTER the revealing of the man of sin and great tribulation.

 

[GraceInHim]

[/size]

But according to HIS WORD the Day of the Lord does not come until AFTER the revealing of the man of sin and great tribulation.

his word? then what about all the parables concerning those who were not chosen or ready? was that just all for nothing?

Noah was told and he warned others and was laughed at..

Sodom was redeemed even if there were 10... and the Angel said he would not strike until they left...

on the day of tribulation, you do not think we will know the times, warnings and all?

why would we also not be redeemed (catched away) before great tribulation?

 

[GraceInHim]

1Thess. 4:15-17
From Latin "RAPTUS," "RAPIETUR," meaning "to snatch away," "to remove with force."
The sudden and miraculous removal from the earth of true Christians, (departed and alive), by the Lord Jesus Christ.
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[ForeverSaved]

Paul spoke about his hope to be in the first resurrection (which includes the first rapture), which he was humbly not certain of that he would be, which does not include everyone in the general resurrection during the span of parousia of Christ.

Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation. Paul writes this.

Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half year's period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.

By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.

Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage re-lates to pre-tribulation rapture while the second relates to post-tribulation rapture.

 

[L0U]

Grace,

Noah and Lot were spared God's wrath. Not persecution from man. The Day of the Lord is God's wrath, not great tribulation by man. The Day of the Lord is that time when God will "judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth." The Day of the Lord's wrath is the only wrath that we are promised deliverance from.

 

[ForeverSaved]

Paul disclosed something here about the first rapture,

Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured ) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

 

[albertmc]

You are assuming a pretrib interpretation of Revelation to prove a pretrib interpretation of I Thessolonians. There are other interpretations. I will end our discussion at this point as we must now just agree to disagree. I would ask you to read the book "A Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger as it will explain what Amillennialist actually believe which is not what many pretrib people think we believe. It will answer your questions. Also there is a site another member of this forum pointed out:

http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/eschatology.html

Suffice to say you assume Revelation is written as a linear chronlology which is not the usual pattern in Jewish apocalyptic literature - the style in which it is writen. The book recapitulates itself in multiple places and the parallels in Chapters 12 and 20 are more than coincidence.

Paul disclosed something here about the first rapture,

Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured ) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

 

[L0U]

Matthew Henry on 2 Thessalonians 2:

"Text: - Ver. 1-4 If errors arise among Christians, we should set them right; and good men will be careful to suppress errors which rise from mistaking their words and actions. We have a cunning adversary, who watches to do mischief, and will promote errors, even by the words of Scripture. Whatever uncertainty we are in, or whatever mistakes may arise about the time of Christ's coming, that coming itself is certain. This has been the faith and hope of all Christians, in all ages of the church; it was the faith and hope of the Old Testament saints. All belivers shall be gathered together to Christ, to be with him, and to be happy in his presence for ever. We should firmly believe the second coming of Christ; but there was danger lest the Thessalonians, being mistaken as to the time, should question the truth or certainty of the thing itself. False doctrines are like the winds that toss the water to and fro; and they unsettle the minds of men, which are as unstable as water. It is enough for us to know that our Lord will come, and will gather all his saints unto him. A reason why they should not expect the coming of Christ, as at hand, is given. There would be a general falling away first, such as would occasion the rise of antichrist, that man of sin. "

 

[ForeverSaved]

You are assuming a pretrib interpretation of Revelation to prove a pretrib interpretation of I Thessolonians. There are other interpretations. I will end our discussion at this point as we must now just agree to disagree. I would ask you to read the book "A Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger as it will explain what Amillennialist actually believe which is not what many pretrib people think we believe. It will answer your questions. Also there is a site another member of this forum pointed out:

http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/eschatology.html

Suffice to say you assume Revelation is written as a linear chronlology which is not the usual pattern in Jewish apocalyptic literature - the style in which it is writen. The book recapitulates itself in multiple places and the parallels in Chapters 12 and 20 are more than coincidence.

I am not assuming, a pretrib interpretation since pretrib says the whole church is raptured before the Tribulation.

Rev. 3.10 and Luke 21.36 clearly indicate to us there is a first rapture before the first trumpet according to readiness and a rapture near the end of the Tribulation at 7th trumpet for the general resurrection.

We know all teachings on historicalism are false because of what Rev. 20.3 says there would be no waring nations. Therefore Rev. 20.3 has not happened yet, and all historicalisms say it is happening now or already happened.

What you teach is false.

 

[ForeverSaved]

Matthew Henry on 2 Thessalonians 2:

"Text: - Ver. 1-4 If errors arise among Christians, we should set them right; and good men will be careful to suppress errors which rise from mistaking their words and actions. We have a cunning adversary, who watches to do mischief, and will promote errors, even by the words of Scripture. Whatever uncertainty we are in, or whatever mistakes may arise about the time of Christ's coming, that coming itself is certain. This has been the faith and hope of all Christians, in all ages of the church; it was the faith and hope of the Old Testament saints. All belivers shall be gathered together to Christ, to be with him, and to be happy in his presence for ever. We should firmly believe the second coming of Christ; but there was danger lest the Thessalonians, being mistaken as to the time, should question the truth or certainty of the thing itself. False doctrines are like the winds that toss the water to and fro; and they unsettle the minds of men, which are as unstable as water. It is enough for us to know that our Lord will come, and will gather all his saints unto him. A reason why they should not expect the coming of Christ, as at hand, is given. There would be a general falling away first, such as would occasion the rise of antichrist, that man of sin. "

Be careful of Henry, he was a calvinist with that pride of believing he was premade for salvation. As a consequence of the roboticism and passivity displayed in this belief, he would shut his mind down by saying "it is enough for us to know our Lord will come". If God give us the blessing of Rev. 1.3 and God shows us how He will come, then it is just not enough to know He is coming, but how He will come so that we may not be deceived. Amen.

The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation if we keep His patient Word (Rev. 3.10). Some Christians don't want to keep His patient Word. There is consequences for this too.

 

[L0U]

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."