When Exactly Is the Rapture?

[ForeverSaved]

The consequence is loss of rewards (not receiving the blessing of Rev. 1.3) denying the rapture according to readiness at first rapture. Or worse.

 

[exodus19]

Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.40-41, Rev. 3.10, 7.9 and 12.5 disagree with you you.


Your issue is not with me but God. There are many false prophets and antichrists.

that 's correct and there here now all over just as antichrist is, but your confirmation is coming from messiah, b/c the word of God is in His mouth, which is that I AM, rev 19:13.

same as 666 witll come as with the other correlations of numerology.
that's precisely how and what Revelation is alal about confirmation.
messiah, the virgins, the Queen, Who the God is, New Jerusalem, the star, angels and the 7 horned beast, and number 8 and the 4 square city with all 12 tribes the pearly whites, the women, the 3 woes and the heavens and who is there.

this is all done at white throne judgement.

now since i left 4 monts ago you all have improved somewhat in you understanding shall we get off first and go to second then we'll call in the clean up guy to hit us home.
lol

hey america,___________________waking no foul balls here, just hit after hit

try batting 1000 ,

do you want to ?

sounds like a winning team!

exodus `19:11 and then who could that reference?

try numbers and names and the Truth is free,

so what name in the world implies free?

you guess right !____francis and you have him on board

so yes the word is free, and will be coming at lightening speed.

so make sure you have all in tact.

God is Great ________joyous, an harmonious 2005- 3005.

what was the last odd number of the last millineum.

you guessed againg 19/11/99 or 111999
and who would that belong to?

guessed right again , messiah's birthday and when is the next odd number.
1000 years or so,___go figure.

who smarted out God or you.

and you win again God.

a brilliant mystery that i too only came privey to in 1999.

He was holding me out,

He's quite a Troll isn't HE?

 

[lecoop]

Then look diligently again.
"ek ho thlipses ho megas" or "ek tees thlipseoos tees megalees"

Both literally say, "out of the tribulation the great"
Why the translators of the KJV left the definite article "the" out is anyones presumption.

Wow! Now you've done it! I have to start back with Gen 1:1, as my idea of this great crowd has crashed! Thanks for steering me right here. I found a neat website: http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B66C007.htm#V15
It shows five different Greek texts, as well as several others. And I see that you are correct. I had only looked at "the blue letter" bible, and it did not show the "the" in the word for word translation. How sad.

Now, however, I will have to meditate on this text until God tells me what He really meant. As I read this, John sees this crowd after the sealing, and before the 70th week starts.

Question: how do you define "tribulation?"
How do you define " great tribulation?"
How do you define "70th week?"
How do you define "Jacob's trouble?"

Do you have a "timeline" done, so I can see? (a picture worth 1000 words)

In reference to the great crowd then, there are some possibilities:

1. It is a preview to a time in the future, i.e. a time during the week of Jacob's trouble, and these poeple came out of the 70th week.
2. It is "real-time" and these people came out of great tribulation, which was happening before the week of Jacob's trouble even starts.
3. It is "real-time," and the week has already started.

At the moment, I would pick #2.


Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Jesus is not "naming" this here, but just stating what the conditions will be.

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Here Jesus may be calling this terrible time "the tribulation."


Mark 13:24
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Here Jesus seems to be specifying a certain tribulation; i.e. "Jacob's trouble." It seems natural that it must be 7 years, else why call it Jacob's trouble?
This fits with the book of Revelation, where we see several time frames of one half of seven years.

Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
This does not seem to say "the tribulation," but just a time of great tribulation, brought on by sin.


Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I think this is again, just saying that these people are coming out of a time of great stress - not related to any 7 year period at all.

Comments?

Coop

 

[Psalms34]

According to Rev. 3.10, only those Christians who keep the word of His patience will be raptured before the Tribulation.

"Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that [hour] which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev. 3.10).

Nooo I disagree. Christians are one body in Christ, we have received the right to be Children of God, have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and when God calls his Bride home (the Church) it will not be a partial rapture but a total rapture of all Christians. To be ready does not mean that one must hold a specific end time view but just to be saved in Christ now. Any one “left behind” will not be a Christian but will be able to become a Christian and those are the tribulation saints that will go through martyrdom of that time. You read too much into being prepared, if you go that rout than having a particular end-times view would be essential for salvation and that is not a correct position.

 

[lecoop]

lecoop said
I know that many believe that this is the rapture. It is not, and indeed cannot be. Where are these elect gathered from? From one end of heaven to the other......but post-trib believes say that the spirits of the saints are coming with Jesus to meet Him in the air. Therefore, why would the angels have to gather the elect from one end of heaven to the other? It is written that He comes with 10,000 of His saints. There is a problem then, with this being the rapture. It just does not fit.


The problem is easily rectified when we see that although His coming happens after the great tribulation, it does not mean it happens at the very end of the 70th week. The Day of the Lord also occurrs within the 70th week.
I am beginning to see what you are saying, but I am not sure I believe it. Jesus said "immediately after the tribulation of those days." This is also (in revelation) immediately after the 70th week has ended with the 7th vial. Therefore, it seems that in Jesus' mind, he is equating "the tribulation" with the week of Jacob's trouble. His statement also tells us that "the tribulation" is over, and the antichrist is still on the attack, and will be until Jesus cuts his off. Why do you say that the "day of the Lord" occurs within this week? Many of the old covenant passages seem to make the whole week as the day of the Lord, while others seem to make the 24 hour day that he returns as the "day of the Lord."


Then look diligently again.
"ek ho thlipses ho megas" or "ek tees thlipseoos tees megalees"

Both literally say, "out of the tribulation the great"
Why the translators of the KJV left the definite article "the" out is anyones presumption.
answered.


But the protection by the sealing is protection from the Day of the Lord which has come to cut short the great tribulation by anti-Christ from which the great multitude was seen coming (ek) out of. Notice also that the four angels are holding back the four winds. Did'nt Jesus say we would be gathered from the four winds?
I disagree. The protection was for the period of the 7 trumpets. In particular, the 5th trumpet. Shortly after the midpoint, John sees these folks in heaven, so either they died, or were raptured. Since they were sealed for their protection, I reject the first. I believe they were raptured. Hmm. There is a rapture near the midpoint! : -)) They were therefore not sealed to be protected from the day of the Lord (the day that he returns), as they are in heaven long before then.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you think this is us, yes, He does say this. If you put this verse with the Luke verse, then the angels are gathering from all over the planet to all over heaven. I cannot see why you relate this to Paul's rapture. The only thing in common is a trumpet!

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Either these are the souls of dead saints, or it is the church. This tells me that the saints will be coming with Him, either with their ressurection bodies (the church and a pre-trib rapture) or with the souls ready to get their bodies (a post trib rapture). In neither case would the angels have to be sent out to search the heavens and the earth to find the saints. Therefore, I belive this is refering to something other than the rapture, and to people other than the church.

Seeing that the Day of the Lord comes to cut short the great tribulation by anti-Christ, and also that it comes 'as a thief in the night', there is no way we can know how long the great tribulation will last. God's wrath is announced at the openning of the sixth seal and begins at the openning of the seventh seal with the trumpets, possibly the seven thunders, and the seven vials. The seven vials are called "the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete."
I am beginning to see what you mean by "tribulation by antichrist," since some of the tribulation is caused by the wrath if the devil, having been cast out of heaven, and using the antichrist to bring that wrath on the people. However, if you say that the Day of the Lord comes to cut short that tribulation, then you are saying that the "day of the Lord," is the 24 hour day that Jesus returns. Since Jesus said "immediately after," this seems to fit. However, he does not give days not hours after, so know one knows. Would this satisfy the "as a thief?" It may be a week or two, or it may be a day or two - no one knows. However, the time frame from the abomination was given several times so there should be no mystery as to the end of the week. Why would we not know how long it will last? It starts with the abomination, and will go for 42 months. During this 42 months, God will be pouring out His wrath with the vials, and the antichrist will be trying to kill all the Jews and Christians. Put literally, it will be one hell of a time to survive. Please notice who is announcing this time of God's wrath at the sixth seal. This is not coming from heaven, but from the kings of the earth. What do they know? many people believe that His wrath does not start until the vials. However, it would be hard to say that the 6th trumpet was not wrath, killing 1/3 of the earth's population!


This is only a problem with those who consider the great tribulation as being the same as the Day of the Lord or God's wrath. It is the sixth seal that initiates the Day of the Lord.
I believe it is the 7th seal that starts it, not the sixth. Comparing what happens with the 7th vial (it is finished) and the 7th trumpet, it seems to me that God uses the 7th as markers. We could say, that at the sixth seal, it was time for it, but it actually starts at the 7th.

Look at Isaiah 2:19:

"And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."








When do they do this?

"When he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."

Isaiah 13:9-13
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger."

Coop said
When did John see this group, in the timeline of the 70th week? Long before the week even starts. John probably saw this group very shortly after Stephen was martyred.








​

Uh, John was on the Island of Patmos and was being shown a vision and he was told by the Lord, "What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."


That may very well be.
Sorry, but I did not word this well. What I was noting was the time in the visions that John sees this great crowd. It is right after the sealing, and before the seventh seal. Im my mind, before the official beginning of the 70th week, or Jacob's trouble..

 

[lecoop]

Nooo I disagree. Christians are one body in Christ, we have received the right to be Children of God, have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and when God calls his Bride home (the Church) it will not be a partial rapture but a total rapture of all Christians. To be ready does not mean that one must hold a specific end time view but just to be saved in Christ now. Any one “left behind” will not be a Christian but will be able to become a Christian and those are the tribulation saints that will go through martyrdom of that time. You read too much into being prepared, if you go that rout than having a particular end-times view would be essential for salvation and that is not a correct position.

Good post. I agree!

Coop

 

[L0U]

Coop,

I'll be back tonight if I have the time.

Happy New Year and God bless.

 

[lecoop]

Coop,

I'll be back tonight if I have the time.

Happy New Year and God bless.

Great Lou! Have a wonderful evening! I will be looking forward to it.

Coop

 

[mindlight]

According to Rev. 3.10, only those Christians who keep the word of His patience will be raptured before the Tribulation.

"Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that [hour] which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev. 3.10).

When do we see the rapture? Before the trumpets start in Revelation 8.

"...stood before the throne" (Rev. 7.9).

This is a vision of the raptured ones from which they first commence to enter into 3rd heaven before the trumpets of the Tribulation.

When are the Christians who are "left" (Matt. 24.40-41) to be raptured?

"...at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible..." (1 Cor. 15.52).

Do you see the picture of trumpets from the first rapture to the rapture at the 7th trumpet?

Lord may others see this truth also and stop arguing with each other. There ought to be noone here who will argue with this truth, so before posting please humble yourselves by the grace of God before.

I am post trib - pre mil for biblical reasons.

Regarding your posting:

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

But I don't see how Revelation 3 v 10 clearly says rapture. It says they will be spared the (hour of temptation that will come upon all the world) but why does that necessarily have to imply removal from this world. God is able to protect his own in this life as much as in the next. There is another message here also on how those misled by satan will come to worship before thy feet. How can they do that if the faithful church has been raptured off?

Too many Tsion Ben Judah's round here - this fictional character from the left behind series might actually be mistaken. The end of days is a mysterious thing and God will reveal its precise truthes in his own time. On the matter of the rapture it seems to me the Bible is not clear and thus there should be a degree of humility about this

 

[lecoop]

Let's take a closer look at the text in 2 Thes 2

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Paul says in verse 6, "now you know." Why would they know now? Obviously, because Paul had just told them. What was it that Paul said they know? They would know what (or who) it was that was doing the restraining. Paul then goes on to explain this restraining more fully. Paul says that "he who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." Then, after the restrainer is removed, the beast will be revealed. Are we in agreement here? WE could like this to a champaign bottle, that has been shaken vigorously. It would blow, except for the cork, that is restraining it! Once the cork is removed, the champaign reacts vigorously to being freed, and is soon in every part of the room! The cork then, is the restrainer.

So we know these facts:
1. There is a restrainer that is restraining the revealing of the antichrist.
2. Paul has just identified this restrainer, for he says "now you know."
3. When the restrainer is removed or "taken out of the way," then and only then can the antichrist be removed.
4. There will be a time that this restrainer will then, be removed.
5. There will be a time when the beast will be revealed, after the restrainer is gone.

If we move backwards from verse 6 to look for what is to be removed, i.e. the "restrainer," there is really only one thing that we can find that seems to fit this discription.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

Let's look closely at this verse. First we get the idea that one could be deceived. Next, Paul tells us that "that day" - which refers back to "the day of Christ" from the previous verse - cannot come unless the apostasia comes first, that the man of sin is revealed. From our pevious 5 points above, we know that this revealing cannot happen until the restrainer is removed. Therefore, whatever Paul meant by the word "apostasia," must be the restrainer, for Paul says that after this apostasia, then the man of sin is revealed. So what is there about this apostasia that can be a restrainer, and then the restraining is gone "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin can be removed?
We know from our study above that he or it is a restrainer, that is he is hindering the revealing of the man of sin, and we know that he is "taken out of the way." We know that after he is taken out of the way, then the man of sin is revealed. So what did Paul mean by this word, "apostasia?"

This would has been translated either of two ways by the main "experts" in translating Greek into English. One is what the KJV has written as "the falling away." The other is "departure," or "catching away." In verse 7 above, Paul says that this restrainer will restrain until such time as he is "taken out of the way." With this phrase in mind, which of these two translations more closely fits the idea of something that is restraining being "taken out of the way?"

Let's take the first idea first: the "falling away." By this we mean "a religious defection or abandonment of the Christian faith." Let's suppose then, that while the church was strong, and no one had departed the faith, that the church (and the HS in each believer) was the restrainer. It is easy to see how a strong church could restrain evil. So then, if the church grew weak, due to mass departure of most of the members, would this or could this be what Paul called "taken out of the way?" At first glance, this would seem to be the case. To answer this, let's take a closer look at this word, "taken."

It is the Greek word, ginomai. We can easily find that this word could be translated as "to cause to be" or "to come into being," "become," "happen," or just "am." However, none of these seem to fit "taken." Let's see how this word is used in other verses in the bible, and mabe we can see why Paul chose this word.

Mar 9:50Salt [is] good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Here we have the two words, "have lost," that are translated from ginomai. In other words, the saltiness has disappeared.

Jhn 12:29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard [it], said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

Here we have the words, "that it thundered" from this Greek word ginomai. What was it that thundered? It was the voice of God.

Act 16:27And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Here we have ginomai as an awakening.

Luk 24:31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Here we have the word "vanished" translated from ginomai.

Act 15:25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
This time, "being assembled" has come from our Greek word.

Luk 9:29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering.

Here we have ginomai translated as "altered." Can we see a pattern here? The saltiness of the salt disappeared. The voice of God thundered. There was an awakening. There was a vanishing. There was an assembling, and finally, there was altering. I am beginning to see why Paul used this Greek word! We find in 1 Thes. that paul said, "The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. God's shout sounds like thundering! Also in 1 Thes. we read that we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed! Changed is altered. When Jesus shouts, the dead in christ will rise: hense an awakening! Those that are alive will vanish, seemingly into thin air! At that same moment we are alter or changed from corruptable to incorruptable! And then we meet the Lord in the air! Hallelujah! It will be a great assembling, as an uncountable number of saints meet the Lord in the air!

Therefore, it seems that Paul picked this very word, or the HS picked it for him, to point back to the previous verses and show the real meaning. It seems that apostesia would better be translated as a great departure, rather than a great falling away, as that would be much closer to the "taken."

I must confess, I was not smart enough to get this on my own. In church this morning, as I was pondering this portion of scripture, the HS quickened this word, "taken" to me, with the idea of which translation of apostasia would better fit this word. So I looked this Greek word up in Google, and found this website: http://www.schneblin.com/studies/pdfs/who_is_the_he_that_hinders.pdf
Coop

 

[DeirdreB]

Hello,

As a very new (hours old) member of CF, I have a deep love of eschatology and want to jump into the disussion. As I read your post, I thought (respectfully) what is your point? Are you suggesting that the restrainer was known to the church of Thessolonian (which I agree). Or do you suggest like the pre-tribbers do that the restrainer is the Holy Spirt (of which I am not convinced). By the way, I beleive that the restrainer is Michael. I can see you took a lot of effort to provide empirical evidence and I respectfully wait for your reply.

 

[L0U]

Or do you suggest like the pre-tribbers do that the restrainer is the Holy Spirt (of which I am not convinced).

1) The Holy Spirit in and through the Church is the greatest force against evil in the world. On this I am certain we all agree. However, niether the Holy Spirit or the Church was the 'let' of which Paul wrote. He had just wrote telling the Thessalonians that the day of Christ's coming and our gathering together unto Him could not take place until after the man of sin would be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). He would not then countradict himself by teaching that the church is the 'let' which must be taken out of the way before the man of sin is revealed. This would be the exact opposite of what he had just wrote.

2) The restrainer, whoever or whatever he is will not be removed before the 70th week but around mid-point, "and THEN shall that wicked be revealed ('apokalupto'- to take the cover off)". Most pre-tribbers place the revealing of the man of sin at the mid-point of the 70th week. If this 'revealing' occurred at the beginning of the 70th week there is no foreseeable way the Jews would recieve him knowing ('apokalupto') that he is their supreme enemy. There is then no Biblical mandate for placing a gap of three and a half years between the 'falling away' and the 'revealing of the man of sin'.

3) For some strange reason some 'teachers' would have us believe that it will be 'unbelievers' who will fall away from a belief that they never had in the first place.

The apostacy can be better understood by the Word's of our Lord:

"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men."

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

"And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love ('agape') of many shall wax cold."
​

By the way, I beleive that the restrainer is Michael.

That's a very good possibility.

Geneva Study Bible of 1599 states:

"But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but (q) Michael your prince.
(q) For this angel was appointed for the defence of the Church under Christ, who is the head of it.)
==============================
Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
Commentary Critical and Explanatory
on the Whole Bible
"none . . . but Michael--To him alone of the angels the office of protecting Israel, in concert with the angelic speaker, was delegated; all the world powers were against Israel."
==============================
The Complete Jewish Bible
"nevertheless, I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. There is no one standing with me against them except Mikha'el your prince."
==============================
Hebrew Names Version
"But I will tell you that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none who holds with me against these, but Mikha'el your prince."
==============================
​

In Daniel 12:1, it is only 'after' Michael 'stands up' (lit. 'stands still') that "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time..."

Jesus spoke of this timeframe:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

​

Of Michael himself it is said;

"Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince."
​

In 2 Thessalonians 2:6 we read:

"And now ye know what withholdeth ('katecho'- to hold down or restrain) that he might be revealed in his time."
​

Michael is presently 'standing' for the children of thy people'. It is only after Michael (who is presently standing) 'stands up' that there will be 'a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.'
The very first time the word for 'stand up' is used in Scripture it denotes 'stationing oneself at a distance to observe':

Exodus 2:4

"And his sister stood at a distance, to know what would be done to him."
​

The second and third times it is used speaks of Moses standing in the presence of Pharaoh in Exodus 8:20 and 9:13.


The fourth time is when Moses told the people to 'stand still', and see the salvation of the Lord, which he will shew to you to day.'

In the whole of Scriptures there is no other meaning for the words here in Daniel 12:1.
This is the meaning that is brought out in the Midrash.
This is undoubtedly speaking of the 'time of Jacobs trouble' when Michael will "stand up" (station himself, stand still, cease and desist in his defense of Israel) and cast Satan to the earth who will have but a short time in his attempt to destroy 'the woman and the rest of her offspring.'

Of Danial 12:1 in the Midrash (the Hebrew interpretive of the Old Testament) it is written of Michael:

"The Holy One, blessed be His name, said to Michael, 'You are silent. You do not defend My children."
​

​

 

[L0U]

Question: how do you define "tribulation?"
How do you define " great tribulation?"
How do you define "70th week?"
How do you define "Jacob's trouble?"

"tribulation"- affliction

"great tribulation"- great affliction

"70th week"- "the beginning of sorrows","great tribulation", "the Day of the Lord".

"Jacob's trouble"- "great tribulation"
===================================

Do you have a "timeline" done, so I can see? (a picture worth 1000 words)

Only that which has already been done.



"The Beginning of Sorrows":a personal warning to His own. Matthew 24:4-8

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

First seal-
"And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."
(The rise to power of anti-Christ who shall come and "he shall cause DECEIT to prosper under his hand and by PEACE destroy many.")
---------------------------------------------

Jesus-
"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:..For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:"

Second seal-
"And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."
---------------------------------------------

Jesus-
"and there shall be famines,.."

Third seal-
"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."
---------------------------------------------

Jesus-
".. and pestilences.."

Fourth seal-
" And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

These first four seals Jesus called "the beginning of sorrows."
------------------------------------------
(Possible restainer {Michael} ceases his restraint- Daniel 12:1)
Great Tribulation- Matthew 24:9-28

Jesus- "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake."
(note: Christians along with the two witnesses [who come before the Day of the Lord] will be treated in the same way. It may be at this time around the time of the fourth and fifth seals that the "peace and safety" prophecy of 1 Thessalonians 5:3 finds fulfillment. Consider also Matthew 24:37-42, Revelation 11:10)

Fifth seal-
" And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
-----------------------------------------------
Jesus-
" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:.."

Sixth seal-
"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Jesus-
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

sixth seal-
"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Jesus-
" And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Revelation 7:
"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree...... After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation (see 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10) to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb" And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

[L0U]

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I think this is again, just saying that these people are coming out of a time of great stress - not related to any 7 year period at all.

New King James- "who come out of the great tribulation"

American Standard- "These are they that come of the great tribulation"

Living Bible- "These are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation"

Revised Standard- "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation"

Simple English- "They are the ones who came through the great trouble"

New American Standard- "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation"

New Jerusalem with Apocrypha-"These are the people who have been through the great trial"

New American with Apocrypha- "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress"

Holman Christian Standard- "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation"

Good News- "These are the people who have come safely through the terrible persecution"

Young's Literal- "These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation"

Darby Translation- "These are they who come out of the great tribulation"

Latin Vulgate- "et dixit mihi hii sunt qui veniunt de tribulatione magna"

Weymouth Bible- "They are those," he said, "who have just passed through the great distress"

Literal- "|3778| These |1526| are |3588| those |2064| coming |1537| out of |3588| the |2347| affliction |3173| great,"

Amplified Bible- "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation (persecution),"

etc.
etc.
etc.

 

[exodus19]

LISTEN UP GUYS,


the 7 seals are of God , 7 represents God, therefore from Him they come and come only,

therefore as you all know or dhould by now as it says in the rev 5:5 that the lion of Judah has the the seven seals with him and he shall loose them which implies both speak them and freely give them for all to understand.

now as i've said before they are here with me and they will be opened according to prophecy at the white throne judgement as it is written.

i've said this before so all your speculating is just that, guessing what the coloured horses mean and what all the datails are will just be that until the mystery of 19:11 is revealled coming out of the the heavens at the blowing of the 7th trump, again number 7, which i would tell you now but unless you get out of the troll mode of thinking

nothing will come to fruition, will it?

so might as well put on you thinking caps and start with understanding that you have to cooperate with the messiah in order to see the events unfold as prophesied.

right see Isaiah 11:11.

now i may just be the consultant, here but we can only proceed togther, can you not see that/

you are all welcome guests, this is after all a grass roots production.

now i have over 30 domain names, locked in to assist in planning and preparation , this was all done years ago as were the seals set up 5-7 years ago.

so just see me as one like you,

after al you are not far from me and allready though the giant art business that i mass marketed throughout the usa you all know of me, and what i did.

so God has done His handy work and can be see everywhere through art. oddly enough you read " thou art" everyehere, kinda of coincidental but true.

art thou, thou art, art is my middle name too, just crazy stuff.

anyway get busy reread this post.

peace

 

[L0U]

LISTEN UP GUYS

Maybe if you spoke clearly we could actually 'LISTEN UP' to what you are saying.
Or are you purposely confusing?
What are you talking about?

 

[exodus19]

thanks for the question,

read again

rev 5:5 seals are loosed only at the time of judgement

is that so hard to understand

also there in the midst of all the angels is the lamb

are you having a hard time reading lou?

do you read that any other way?

how many verses in the OT directly point to the 2 coming?

Most of the prophecies do speak of the 2cd advent and not the first

but try 11;11 and when he appears the 2 cd time

even jesus added a 3rd time in his discourse.

and the sword is in his mouth, who has the two edged sword as written in heb 4:10

read along and try to read with the prophets, try not to look at the words, read as if the words were from your Father, right there in front of you.

stop dissecting just listen , open you heart, mind a little, stop blocking.

you are told to block out trolls so you do in fear of being trapped and succumbing to being a party pooper.

They would say the same to jesus," what are you talking about" and you would have to back then , just by the way you speak to me here you would be one like nicodemus, asking questions like how does a 40 year old re-enter the womb <<<<<dah?

sorry, you asked for it, even a 14 year old can read and understand me.


unless he's blocking, get it blocking like not willing to hear.

the whole set up of revelation is done in order,

yes no one knows the time or day that messiah comes, but when that day comes it is that day, especially for that person who sees and hears and the blind are made to see and deaf hear.

anyway, there is a set up here, it's not a fly by in the sky and rapture nonsense and suddenly you're squeezing out you bedroom window and flying. lol

but in actallity no one , ( weel most) really knows even for sure even though there's abig event about to happen and the messiah is psread far and wide on tv screens across the world, most don't believe, b/c they still want to have sin life and dangle in sexcapades and life on the slide thinking their ok ,

remember lou it's just a remnant, it aint' the whole world.

can't you guys get the picture?

no b/c you like sin and don't want to stop it and as scripture says most of you will say " it;s not time yet", who said that?

isaiah or jeremiah,

are you ready lou,

what?

to be sober

have you not listened to Jesus/

comes quickly doesn't it?

like a thief in the night right under your nose.


can you understand or are you still blocking in disbelief, that messiah would appear on the largest christian internet chat room in the world.

cool eh?

and how can you stop it lest i be booted, but there are many more computors aren't there and friends.

it's prophecy lou

get it!

God is too cool and start getting right with Him and you be right by me too.

peace

 

[lecoop]

1) The Holy Spirit in and through the Church is the greatest force against evil in the world. On this I am certain we all agree. However, niether the Holy Spirit or the Church was the 'let' of which Paul wrote. He had just wrote telling the Thessalonians that the day of Christ's coming and our gathering together unto Him could not take place until after the man of sin would be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). He would not then countradict himself by teaching that the church is the 'let' which must be taken out of the way before the man of sin is revealed. This would be the exact opposite of what he had just wrote.
...

Lou, I just don't think you are reading what Paul said, the way He meant for it to be read. Verse 3 is a tricky passage, because it seems in the Greek that Paul did not finish the sentence as we would want it to be finished. He left out what I would say was the critical part. however, knowing nothing about Greek, I must trust those that do.

King James Version
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Notice what the KJV put in brakets: they have no Greek words to back them.

Darby's English Translation
2:3 Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

Darby does the same thing.

Douay Rheims
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Young's Literal Translation
2:3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

These two seem to be accurate to the Greek. However, they make little sense! Therefore, let's take a close look at the KJV.


2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beg you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him,

By this verse, we know that Paul is writing about Jesus coming and the gathering, or rapture. There can be little doubt of this.

2 that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.

Now it gets a little more complicated. It seems that a letter or perhaps a sermon or something like it had been circulated, scaring these people into thinking that they had missed the rapture, and they were into the "day of the Lord!" For this discussion, let's suppose that by "Day of the Lord," Paul meant the 70th week, or Jacob's trouble. These folks had been told that they were already into the "Day of the Lord." Why were they disturbed about this? Because they remembered Pauls previous teachings that the rapture would be before the day of the Lord. This is a guess, but an inteligent one. They were shaken in mind or troubled. Now, why would they be troubled in mind, if they believed that the rapture or the "gathering" would be after the Day of the Lord?" That would make no sense. Somehow this news had gotten to Paul, so he is going to set the record straight. Let's see how he sets this record straight.

3 Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;



"Because it will not be..." What is it that will not be? This seems to be referring to the "day of the Lord" in the previous verse. Paul is saying that the "Day of the Lord" cannot come yet. Something must happen first. Then Paul says that the apostasia must happen and the man of sin must be revealed before the day of the Lord can come. Now we have more trouble. Do we have to re-address what Paul means by the day of the Lord? Perhaps he means only the last 1260 days of the week; the time after the abomination. Or perhaps the "revealing" is not just what we expect, and he will only be revealed to those that will be watching who gets a 7 years peace treaty signed with Israel, and in instrumental in getting the new temple built. I chose this latter idea.

In any case, Paul does not say that "the gathering together" will be after the revealing. It is the "Day of the Lord" that will be after the revealing. Now, if some think that the "Day of the Lord" is the same thing as the ingathering, they will think this is saying something different. One of the keys here is noticing that these people were shaken in mind, as if they believed they had missed the rapture!



as I read it
Coop

 

[lecoop]

"tribulation"- affliction

"great tribulation"- great affliction

Very funny! : -)))

"70th week"- "the beginning of sorrows","great tribulation", "the Day of the Lord".

"Jacob's trouble"- "great tribulation"
===================================



Only that which has already been done.
Are you saying then, that all of the above is past: history?


"The Beginning of Sorrows":a personal warning to His own. Matthew 24:4-8

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
This is happening now.

First seal-
"And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."
(The rise to power of anti-Christ who shall come and "he shall cause DECEIT to prosper under his hand and by PEACE destroy many.")

There is nothing in the discription of this horse and rider that would point to the antichist - indeed, it seems to point to something else. I know that people want to find the antichist here - but I believe they are in error for several reasons.

---------------------------------------------

Jesus-
"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:..For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:"

This is history: we have seen it all happen and it is happening now.

Second seal-
"And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."
---------------------------------------------

Jesus-
"and there shall be famines,.."

This is history: we have seen it all happen and it is happening now.

Third seal-
"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."
---------------------------------------------

Jesus-
".. and pestilences.."

This is history: we have seen it all happen and it is happening now.


Fourth seal-
" And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

These first four seals Jesus called "the beginning of sorrows."

This is history: we have seen it all happen and it is happening now.

There is a key here that most people read right over.
2nd seal = sword
3rd seal = famine or hunger
4th seal = death

Now look at what John writes:
And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death
Who is the "them?" John gives us the answer: the red horse and rider (sword), the black horse and rider (hunger), and the pale horse and rider (death). Hmm. Guess who is missing? The white horse and rider is not a part of this bunch, and is one part of "them." Why is this? Because all of this is evil, and the white horse is not evil.

Now, when do these riders ride? Let's back up and see.

Rev 4
3and he [that was] sitting like in appearance to a stone [of] jasper and a sardius, and a rainbow round the throne like in appearance to an emerald. 4And round the throne twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed with white garments; and on their heads golden crowns.


5And out of the throne go forth lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and seven lamps of fire, burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; 6and before the throne, as a glass sea, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, four living creatures, full of eyes, before and behind;

There is a person missing in this scene: It is Jesus. Think about when. When could John have seen into heaven, and not seen the Lamb or the Son there? (Remember, in a revelation, God can show history or present or future events, and they will all seem like the present to the viewer.)

Answer: John is seeing into the past, into a time when Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. Where is He? This must be while Jesus was on earth.

Revelation 5
1 And I saw on the right hand of him that sat upon the throne a book, written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who [is] worthy to open the book, and to break its seals?
3 And no one was able in the heaven, or upon the earth, or underneath the earth, to open the book, or to regard it. 4 And *I* wept much because no one had been found worthy to open the book nor to regard it.

Again, let us ask the question "when?" What time period could John have been seeing, where heaven could have conducted a thorough search, and no man be found? Since we can read ahead and we know that Jesus is untimately the one found, we can know that John is seeing into a time before Jesus rose from the dead. This goes perfectly with the previous discription, where Jesus was missing from the throne room. Therefore John is seeing into the past, at a time before Jesus rose from the dead. Can you see that? Now what happens next?

5 And one of the elders says to me, Do not weep. Behold, the lion which [is] of the tribe of Juda, the root of David, has overcome [so as] to open the book, and its seven seals.
6 And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God [which are] sent into all the earth:
7 and it came and took [it] out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when it took the book,...

Now we read that finally a man has been found! Someone comes to John and tells him to stop weeping! he tells John that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah has overcome. Then John sees a newcomer to the throne room: the missing personage! John sees Jesus as a "lamb as slain."

Now let's get back to our time question. We determined that John was seeing into the past (for Him at approximately 90 AD or so) and seeing a time before Jesus rose from the dead, and now John sees Jesus at the that He has risen. Can you see this? I bugged God about this passage of John crying for weeks, asking God why He bothered to put this in the bible. I thought, what possible good could it do for us to know that John was crying because no man was found. After a few weeks, God has mercy of me, and said only "it shows timing." After much study, I finally saw it! It does show timing. John saw into the past, to a time before Jesus rose from the dead, to a time after Jesus rose. In other words, He saw perhaps a period of a week or two or a month or two (who knows in a vision?) but this time frame was centered on the time that Jesus rose from the dead!

Now look at verse 7 above: What do we see? Jesus comes immediately to take the book out of the hand of the Father! Once more, when did this happen? As soon as Jesus rose from the dead. I suspect that it was just after Jesus told Mary Magdalene not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended. When we learn that this scroll is the lease document of planet earth, then we begin to see how important it was that someone be found worthy to break the seals, for this is the beginning of the end of Satan's control over planet earth. IOW, it was extremely important that the seals get broken as soon as possible. So we See Jesus, as soon as He arrives in heaven, taking the scroll. What does John see next? Some worship of the one worthy to open the seals! And this worship is fitting! Hallelujah! But after the worship, what does John see? remember, Jesus got the scroll into His hands as soon as possible after He arrived in heaven; perhaps minutes!

Revelation 6
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals,

The first thing Jesus does, as soon as the worship is over, is start breaking the seals! Why? The sooner the seals get broken, the sooner that God can regain possession of planet earth.

Now back to timing. When was the first seal broken? It seems very likely that it was within minutes of Jesus resurrection. I know, this is different than you all believe. However, this is just what God showed me, and I will not appologize for it! I spent months seeking God over just these short protions of scripture, determined to come to God with an open slate, and let Him fill it in.

Now, considering that the first seal was broken about 33 AD, what could this white horse represent? It is not difficult! God has used white from Genesis to maps, to represent righteousness. He is not going to change here for this white horse! Never forget, this vision is coming from the mind of the Father, and the purpose is to "reveal," not hide. Yes, if the antichist were to paint himself, of course he would try to make himself look like God, but this is not him, and this vision is coming from God, not him!

Who did Jesus leave on planet earth? he left 120 people in the upper roon. His infant church. The white horse represent the infant church, going forth to conquer the world. From 120 to billions? I think this church has done well.

After the church is sent out to take the gospel to the ends of the world, satan (always on the defense) tries what he can do to stop the church. So he sends out war, famime, pestelance, etc, to stop what God is doing. That is why we see seals 2,3, and 4 working together. They are satan's attemp to slow the Church of the Most High God. Of course satan fails.

It seems then, that written into this "lease agreement," are everything that must take place for earth to get back into the hands of Father God.

As I read it,
Coop

Added to post.

 

[lecoop]

thanks for the question,

read again

rev 5:5 seals are loosed only at the time of judgement

is that so hard to understand

also there in the midst of all the angels is the lamb

are you having a hard time reading lou?

do you read that any other way?

......................

peace

Where do you see "judgement" anywhere near Rev 5:5? It only states that Jesus was found worthy to take the book and break the seals. That happened about 2000 years ago. Was God judging the world then? I think not.

Coop