When Do the 2,520 Days of the Tribulation Take Place?

[TishaBAv]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]Of course, whether taken or left, all the men and women spoken of here in 24.40-41 are saved—so that the ones left cannot be viewed as being unsaved, nor those taken, because of the following reasons: [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](1) “Watch therefore” (v.42). The word “therefore” connects with the preceding verses 40 and 41. Since you are saved and have life, you are expected to watch. Those who lack the Lord’s life cannot watch. The determining factor in the first rapture is not a being saved or unsaved but is a case of one’s works after regeneration. To say that all the regenerated will be raptured together is a serious mistake. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](2) “Your Lord cometh” (v.42). The unsaved do not have the relationship of servant and master with the Lord. Man may misuse this word, but the Lord never will. The unsaved person may consider himself to be a servant of the Lord, but the Lord will not carelessly use such a term as “your Lord” here. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](3) “The thief was coming” (v.43). If a thief comes to steal apples, he will take the ripe ones and leave the unripened ones behind. Thus it is not a difference in kind but one of degree. He steals the best ones first.[/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](4) The five foolish in the parable of the virgins told of in chapter 25 are not false virgins. They are real, except that they are not wise as are the five wise virgins. The wise ones spare no effort to carry oil in the vessels whereas the foolish are too lazy to make such a provision. Nevertheless, both the wise and the foolish are virgins, and they all go forth to meet the bridegroom. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](5) Judging from typology, those who are left can be the saved as well as those who are taken. Both Enoch (who was raptured) and Noah (who entered the ark) were saved. Yet both Abraham (the intercessor) and Lot (who passed through tribulation) were saved too. But Elijah (the taken) and Elisha (the left) were saved. The disciples whom the Lord in His ascension left behind were all saved ones. Both Philip (the one taken away) and the eunuch (the one left behind) were saved. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]We conclude, therefore, that the “taken” and the “left” in verses 40 and 41 are all saved. [/FONT]

Those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28)-once-saved-always-saved! Amen.

 

[Truth Files]

"so, as you can see, those taken in Mat24, are taken in the flood...not raptured by the Lord. right?"

>Correct .... those "taken" will be taken [killed] in the judgments during the tribulation period

.... there is no connection with these verses of scripture and Lord's pre-tribulation "harpazo" to immortalize His church .... and those who teach that the "taken" and "left" separation is the "'rapture" are wrong

>Those "left" will be the mortal survivors of the tribulation [Matthew 24:29-31 of Israel; 25:31-46 of the nations]

>This is not a resurrection, but a gathering of those left on the earth of whom some will enter and populate [reproduce in] the Lord's coming millennial kingdom .... as mortals [Isaiah 11; Ezekiel 36:10-11]

>The believing elect of Israel and the believing sheep of the nations will enter .... the goats will not

>These are resurrected humans:
The pre-tribulation church [those on thrones] and those who become believers during the tribulation period [those beheaded] are seen here: Revelation 20:4

>The "partial rapture" concept is not supported by scripture .... this idea has been suggested by a mixture of Calvinistic predestination theology and Universalism

 

[TishaBAv]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]Universalists would say everyone is raptured at the same time rather than a first rapture according to readiness. And Calvinists reject partial rapture since since the latter is according to readiness, whereas Calvinism teaches irresistible grace. True predestination is God predestinates by foreknowing our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]Matt 24.31 This verse is the fulfillment of Matthew 23.39: “Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”—After the Great Tribulation, the Lord will “gather together His elect”: the “elect” or “chosen” are the Jews who are scattered among the nations. “From the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”—This does not denote rapture, for here it is the idea of [/FONT][FONT=LEBEBP+TimesNewRoman,Italic]erchomai[/FONT][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman], not [/FONT][FONT=LEBEBP+TimesNewRoman,Italic]parousia[/FONT][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]. Here is a gathering together (see Deut. 30.3-5). After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jews were either killed or captured. They were scattered to the nations. Now, the Lord begins to call them back (see Is. 43.5-7). They shall return from the east, the west, the north, and the south. Some shall even come from the land of Sinim (Is. 49.9-13). Now Sinim means China, and in Hunan province there is a large number of Jews, who, incidentally, take the family name of Tsan. See also Isaiah 49.22-26, 51.11, 56.8, 60.4, 62.10-12, 27.13; Ezekiel 34.13, 37.21, 28.25. “From the four winds”—Wind is moving all the time: the Jews have no settled place in which to live but wander all over the world. [/FONT][/FONT]

The gathering spoken of here is not the rapture of the church, because (1) [FONT=LEBEBP+TimesNewRoman,Italic]parousia [/FONT][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]has already passed, and rapture is within the scope of [/FONT][FONT=LEBEBP+TimesNewRoman,Italic]parousia[/FONT][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]; (2) this is a gathering together, and hence it has no connection with [/FONT][FONT=LEBEBP+TimesNewRoman,Italic]parousia[/FONT][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]; (3) if it were indeed [/FONT][FONT=LEBEBP+TimesNewRoman,Italic]parousia [/FONT][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]it would be totally foreign to the meaning of the preceding passage; (4) by it pointing to the Jews it agrees with Matthew 23.37; (5) at the trump of God, the Lord would come to the air; and (6) the context proves to be concerning the Jews. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]vv.40-41 “One is taken, and one is left”—Why do we have these two verses? We know that all who belonged to Noah entered the ark and were therefore saved from the impending flood. According to strict typology, then, is not this to be interpreted that all the saints will be raptured together? Let us see that the Lord purposely adds the words of these two verses here lest we greatly misunderstand. Although it is true that as the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming of the Son of man, there is nevertheless this one exception which our Lord tries to explain here. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]There are three different views on the men or women mentioned in verses 40 and 41: (1) they all refer to the Jews at that time; (2) the ones taken point to the regenerated, while the ones left point to the unsaved (or vic versa); or (3) both the taken and the left are Christians. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]Let us first examine closely interpretations (1) and (3): According to (1) we must assume that the ones taken are the Jews who will be punished while the ones left will be those Jews who will enjoy the blessing of the kingdom on earth. But according to (3), we need to postulate just the opposite—that the taken are the saved who will enjoy the blessing of glory while the left are the saved who will go through the Great Tribulation on earth. Before we can settle on view (1) or view (3), we should investigate the words “taken” and “left” as to their meaning. If “taken” means good, then view (3) is more applicable since the rapture of Christians is a blessed thing. On the other hand, if “taken” means bad, then view (1) is more likely because these Jews will not be left on earth to enjoy the blessing of the kingdom. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]The word “taken” is [/FONT][FONT=LEBEBP+TimesNewRoman,Italic]paralambano [/FONT][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]in Greek. Besides being translated “to receive” as its basic meaning, it can also denote the idea of “to take to (or with) oneself”—In the New Testament this word is used 52 times, most of which instances convey a good meaning. John 14.3 (“and will receive you unto myself&#8221 is the only instance wherein our Lord speaks directly on rapture. Three times He took Peter, John and James along with Him (see Mark 5.35-43, Matt. 17.1 and 26.37). There, “paralambano” on all three occasions connotes a good idea. In John 1.11 (“they that were his own received him not&#8221, the meaning will be good if people receive the Lord. The word “received” in Colossians 2.6, “received” in 1 Thessalonians 4.1, “received” in 2.13, “receiving” in Hebrews 12.28, “take” and “took” in Matthew 2.13-14, “took” in Acts 15.39, “took” in 16.33, and “took” in 23.18—all are [/FONT][FONT=LEBEBP+TimesNewRoman,Italic]paralambano [/FONT][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]and all suggest something good. Even in the Old Testament, the equivalent Hebrew word for “took” [/FONT][FONT=LEBEBP+TimesNewRoman,Italic](laqach) [/FONT][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]in Genesis 5.24 refers to rapture; and the same Hebrew word for “fetched” ([/FONT][FONT=LEBEBP+TimesNewRoman,Italic]laqach[/FONT][FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]) in 1 Samuel 10.23 means something good. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]Though the word “left” has also its favorable implication such as in Genesis 32.8, Numbers 26.65 and Isaiah 24.6, yet it can be used in both the good and the bad sense. The question is decided by the identity of the one who leaves them behind. If they are left behind by the devil, nothing is better. But if they are left behind by the Lord, can anything be worse? It is woe to those who are taken by the devil, but blessed are those who are taken by the Lord. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]However, the meaning of a word is not in itself decisive enough for making a judgment. We have to consider its context. According to Matthew 24.19, those who are left behind because they cannot flee are in bad trouble. Then, too, verses 42 and 43 tell us that the Lord shall come as a thief; what He steals away must therefore be the best. Even in the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25, the virgins who are taken inside are the wise, while the virgins who are left outside are the foolish. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]Of course, whether taken or left, all the men and women spoken of here in 24.40-41 are saved—so that the ones left cannot be viewed as being unsaved because of the following reasons: [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](1) “Watch therefore” (v.42). The word “therefore” connects with the preceding verses 40 and 41. Since you are saved and have life, you are expected to watch. Those who lack the Lord’s life cannot watch. The determining factor in rapture is not a being saved or unsaved but is a case of one’s works after regeneration. To say that all the regenerated will be raptured together is a serious mistake. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](2) “Your Lord cometh” (v.42). The unsaved do not have the relationship of servant and master with the Lord. Man may misuse this word, but the Lord never will. The unsaved person may consider himself to be a servant of the Lord, but the Lord will not carelessly use such a term as “your Lord” here. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](3) “The thief was coming” (v.43). If a thief comes to steal apples, he will take the ripe ones and leave the unripened ones behind. Thus it is not a difference in kind but one of degree as He comes to steal the best first.[/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](4) The five foolish in the parable of the virgins told of in chapter 25 are not false virgins. They are real, except that they are not wise as are the five wise virgins. The wise ones spare no effort to carry oil in the vessels whereas the foolish are too lazy to make such a provision. Nevertheless, both the wise and the foolish are virgins, and they all go forth to meet the bridegroom. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](5) Judging from typology, those who are left can be the saved as well as those who are taken. Both Enoch (who was raptured) and Noah (who entered the ark) were saved. Yet both Abraham (the intercessor) and Lot (who passed through tribulation) were saved too. But Elijah (the taken) and Elisha (the left) were saved. The disciples whom the Lord in His ascension left behind were all saved ones. Both Philip (the one taken away) and the eunuch (the one left behind) were saved. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]We conclude, therefore, that the “taken” and the “left” in verses 40 and 41 are all saved. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]v.42 Joining verses 40 and 41 with verse 42, one may readily see that the real issue lies in “watch” or “not watch”; otherwise the Lord cannot employ the word “therefore” nor can He exhort us to be watchful. If the condition for early rapture is regeneration and not watchfulness and proper works after regeneration, then there would be no reason for the Lord to enjoin us to watch. For in this verse He merely charges us to be watchful, with nothing being said about repentance, faith, or regeneration. Thus, both the taken and the left mentioned in verses 40-42 are saved ones. Surely our Lord will not advise the unregenerated to watch. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]What is the significance of the word “watch”? Some people have suggested that this matter of watching concerns only the Jews, while we Christians need only to wait. Yet we know that the Jews will themselves have to pass through “Jacob’s trouble”: there is no way for them to escape the wrath of God. And hence they cannot avoid the Great Tribulation simply because they are watchful. But with the church, watchfulness is most useful. The meaning of watching is not to be careless. How prone Christians are to be overly self-confident. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]Watchfulness is the very opposite of carelessness. He who sleeps must be so confident in himself that he reckons nothing is going to happen, whereas the watchful person puts no trust in his flesh at all. The self-confident one is prone to fall, for to boast that “I am different from yesterday” opens the way to failure. Only the person who deeply senses his own inadequacy will be watchful. To watch is to be careful, guarding daily against the possibility of a fall. Whoever considers himself as unable to fall will not be vigilant. A person who is saved can fall though he can't fall all the way into unsalation because those who are born-again "shall never perish" (John 10.28). God keeps His own when we are not strong enough to keep ourselves saved. Only God can.[/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]We need to see from all this that if all believers were to be raptured together, what would be the need for our Lord to warn us to watch? Moreover, if we knew the time of His coming, we again would have no need to watch. But since the Lord has not told us the hour, let us ever be watchful and on guard. (It should be noted spiritual Christians can know the day though just not the hour according to the Tetrads and the exact 2,520 day period from Feast of Trumpets to Tisha B'Av.)[/FONT]

 

[zeke37]

The man child is born in an instant

Christ was born a long time ago. what is you point?
Rev12 is a parenthetical chapter...an insert.

Nobody is "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven yet these past two thousand years.

ummmm.... seriously?
Christ is at the Throne...
He's God...
sits at the power of God...
right hand....


everyone that has died, is in heaven....waiting...concious.
a discussion for another time, as I just went thru that with another poster.
i'll try to give you a link to the thread.



no one has done what Christ did...including even David.
that is why ONLY Christ is at the throne of God.
No one else will/could ever do that.

In an instant there will be 144,000 standing on mount zion in 3rd heaven.

rather, in an instant, there will be 144,000
standing on the literal earthly Mt Zion,
who were just gathered by Christ, from the earth, at His 2nd Coming.

ya.

There are no believers in 3rd heaven,

all dead believers are in heaven.

for we are raptured during the final seven together.

we are raised here together.
the dead are raised here at the same time as the gathering to Christ.
pre trib is a farce.

"Travailing in birth" occurs these 2000 years, but "pained to be delivered" (Rev. 12.2) occurs in an instant. Being delivered refers to being raptured.

no it does not...
it means labour pains, then birth.
Israel birthed the manchild, who was caught up to God.

Only Christ can fit that description.

Satan tries to devour the overcomers just as they are about to be raptured at the first rapture as soon as we are born: "as soon as it was born" (Rev. 12.4).

Satan wars with (and spiritually overcome many) right up till Christ's 2nd Coming,
which is after the tribulation of those days.

there is no pre trib rapture.
it is a lie meant to deceive.

one 2nd Coming. not two.

again, you fail to even make one valid point to remotely sway any studied post tribber.
especially one that has heard it all before.


satan comes first to deceive you, if it is possible.
the pre trib rapture stand, teaches that Christ comes first, and that is a lie.

i therefore conclude that pre tribbers are set up to fall for Satan's flood of lies,
including his claim of being the true Christ.

and I dont want that to happen.

many will be gnashing their teeth

 

[Truth Files]

"Rev12 is a parenthetical chapter...an insert."

>Correct

>Chapter 12 has historical reach backs [inserts] for overview

>A number of Revelation's chapters have the same

>Chapter 12 also has future events that are still pending the coming 70th week decreed for Israel

>The MSOG corporate "manchild" perversion is one of the most aberrant and disgusting interpretations .... this is total blasphemy against the Lord by replacing Him with the movement's membership

>They teach their members that they will become immortal "super christians" and enter the tribulation period .... there leaders are all designers of cults and claim that they are last day apostles

>I would suggest a study of this gross perversion by accessing much that has been written about it

>Here are some key words to search: William Branham; Paul Cain: David Eells; Peter Wagner; Mike Bickel; Rodney Brown; Todd Bentely; Toronto Blessings; Brownsville Revival; Lakeland Revival] .... all of these are spreaders of the heresy

 

[zeke37]

Revelation 3.10 "The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world"—This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the posttrib onlyism school of interpretation as well as those of the pretrib onlyisim. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation.

you forgot Smyrna. two candlesticks....Philly and Smyrna.

Furthermore, first rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation.

how can being raptured early, before the trib, = patience.
that is the opposite of patience.

The posttrib onylist school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to a first rapture, for it speaks of keeping—that God will "keep" them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23). Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the "keeping" in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word "keep" in this verse there is the word ek which means "out of" (as in the word ekklesia which means "the called out ones"). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation.

still dont have to leave the planet.
and that is but one view.
Lot and Noah were kept safe through their tribulation.

either way, we can be kept out of temptation, by not being tempted.
if you know Satan cones first (before any rapture) to deceive you,
then you'll have patience and wait for the True Lord, not denying Him.

And (2) "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial" (3.10a)—As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial. In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.

[/QUOTE]
ballony. the hour of temptation.
Satan's temptation....\

he's trying to woo the bride of Christ.
beguile
seduce
deceive

play Christ
get you to worship him as God.


Christians are not gone in this time...
it is THEIR test.

Satan's already got the rest right?
the test is for US!


there is no pre trib rapture.

Problems with posttrib onlyism:

A. Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared.

hahahaha.
that would be the exact reason for the watching and waiting and being prepared...
lol

Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half year's period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.

first off, the time is shortedned for the elect's sake.
second, we might not know the exact timing of the beginning of the time...it might not be world news...

B. Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

wait through the hour of temptation...
the antiChrist, pretending to be Jesus returned to get you ready for the rapture.

how are we kept through that time?

by being prepared,
seeing past his lies,
not worship him,
keeping your crown,
being patient

C. The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) -

that happpens post trib.

and all but the 144,000 (whether literal or spiritual number) are deceived and overcome by Satan's lies.

most all Christians will be deceived, think he is Jesus, and worship him accordingly.

for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

Titus was written to folks a long time ago.(and us)
if they did/do those positive things written of,
then they would be in the resurrection.
that's what it means...blessed hope...
there is no pre trib meaning, or promise of escaping tribulation mentioned in the scripture.

the blessed hope is certainly not any pre trib rapture.
they, back then, were not waiting for a pre trib rapture.

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
​

D. The postrib onlyist view do not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, “Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.

at a time when you do not expect him, if you are not on watch.
gotta be a watchman, for both the enemy and the Master.

pre trib crowd will not be on watch,
because they will not even know they are in the trib at all....
they will think that Satan is Christ, come to rapture ready them.

note when that warning in Rev16 is given!
it is clearly after we are told about the beast.
right before He returns at the 7th vial.

E. A posttrib onlyist views the twelve disciples as being purely Christians in direct contrast with the view of the first school which considers these twelve as being merely Jews. As a matter of fact, however, these twelve disciples are Christians as well as representatives of the Jewish remnant. For example, in Matthew 10.5-6 and 23.3 we see that all have a Jewish background, a fact which is thus inapplicable to Christians.

huh?
you just said these first Christians were Jews...and many more were too.
many after them were aswell...
How is that unapplicable?

F. There is a failure in this posttrib onlyist view to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord.

that is because the gathering to Christ is at the appearing of the Lord.
they are not on two different dates.

There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord, "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives. So does the prophecy which is given in Revelation: “Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen” (1.7). In taking the historical view, the posttribber onlyist line of interpretation regards that part of Revelation up to chapter 17 as having already been fulfilled, with only the part from chapter 17 onward waiting to be fulfilled.

I, as a posttribber, do not hold to that.
some here do, but most here do not.

Christ comes, from heaven, WITH that dead Saints,
because that is where they are up till then, like all dead.

They come from heaven with Christ, to meet and be gathered together with the Saints on earth (bride of Christ).

the resurrection.

(This is exactly opposite to the futuristic view taken by the first school of interpretation which deems only chapters 1-3 as having already been fulfilled, with the rest remaining to be so). If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!

I, and most post tribbers here, do not fall into that catagory.

 

[zeke37]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]Of course, whether taken or left, all the men and women spoken of here in 24.40-41 are saved—so that the ones left cannot be viewed as being unsaved, nor those taken, because of the following reasons: [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](1) “Watch therefore” (v.42). The word “therefore” connects with the preceding verses 40 and 41. Since you are saved and have life, you are expected to watch. Those who lack the Lord’s life cannot watch. The determining factor in the first rapture is not a being saved or unsaved but is a case of one’s works after regeneration. To say that all the regenerated will be raptured together is a serious mistake. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](2) “Your Lord cometh” (v.42). The unsaved do not have the relationship of servant and master with the Lord. Man may misuse this word, but the Lord never will. The unsaved person may consider himself to be a servant of the Lord, but the Lord will not carelessly use such a term as “your Lord” here. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](3) “The thief was coming” (v.43). If a thief comes to steal apples, he will take the ripe ones and leave the unripened ones behind. Thus it is not a difference in kind but one of degree. He steals the best ones first.[/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](4) The five foolish in the parable of the virgins told of in chapter 25 are not false virgins. They are real, except that they are not wise as are the five wise virgins. The wise ones spare no effort to carry oil in the vessels whereas the foolish are too lazy to make such a provision. Nevertheless, both the wise and the foolish are virgins, and they all go forth to meet the bridegroom. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman](5) Judging from typology, those who are left can be the saved as well as those who are taken. Both Enoch (who was raptured) and Noah (who entered the ark) were saved. Yet both Abraham (the intercessor) and Lot (who passed through tribulation) were saved too. But Elijah (the taken) and Elisha (the left) were saved. The disciples whom the Lord in His ascension left behind were all saved ones. Both Philip (the one taken away) and the eunuch (the one left behind) were saved. [/FONT]

[FONT=LEAPHH+TimesNewRoman]We conclude, therefore, that the “taken” and the “left” in verses 40 and 41 are all saved. [/FONT]

Those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28)-once-saved-always-saved! Amen.

were the ones taken, in Noah's day flood (Mat24:38-41), saved ?
or was it death for them?

as in the days of Noah, the ones taken in the end times, are taken in the end times flood
(that comes from the dragons mouth)

it is not a good thing to be taken.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (working)
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (working)
​

they will be carrying on, won't even know they are in the hour of temptation.

who was getting married to who, during the days of Noah,
and what can we learn from that.


ps. those taken by Satan's lies (2Cor11/2Thes2/Rev13), that are Christians, but deceived,
will be saved in the Lord's day (1Cor5).

they, most, need refinement.

 

[zeke37]

what book are you getting this from?

 

[TishaBAv]

As soon as the man child is born, he is caught up to the throne, whereas the Lord Jesus is taken up to heaven only after He has lived over thirty years, died, and been raised from the dead. "The dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne" (Rev. 12.4,5). Jesus has no mother. Jesus is God-2nd Person of the Trinity.

When Jesus was born Satan wasn't trying to kill Jesus as soon as he was born. It wasn't until about 2 years old. Should this man child be Christ, the dragon will then be Herod, yet 12.9 states explicitly that the dragon is Satan himself. This man child is not personal but corporate in character (12.10-11). "Brethren...their testimony...love not their lives unto death...." The woman represents Jerusalem, while the Lord Jesus is born in Bethlehem. Because all this is a vision, the word “travail” cannot be interpreted literally.

Who, then, is this man child? He must be the overcomers: for example, (1) some Christians in the church in Smyrna, since “Be thou faithful unto death” (2.10) coincides with the last clause in 12.11—“they loved not their life even unto death”; (2) some Christians in the church in Thyatira, for “he shall rule them with a rod of iron” (2.26,27) agrees with “a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (12.5); (3) some Christians in the church in Philadelphia, because they are kept out of “the hour of trial” (3.10) just as the man child is “caught up unto God” (12.5); and (4) some Christians in the church in Laodicea, since they will “sit” on the “throne” (3.21) just as the man child “is to rule all the nations” (12.5).

Accordingly, those represented by the man child are not the whole church but are the overcomers within the church. In our discussion of chapter 7 we listed eight points of similarity between the great multitude spoken of there and the man child mentioned here. For the man child represents a portion of that countless number. (Please note that chapter 7 deals with the general topic of rapture, whereas chapter 12 gives the details of some part of those raptured.)

The multitude mentioned in 7.9-17 and the people represented by the man child in 12.1-11 have many points in common:

(1) According to 7.10 the multitude are saved by the Lamb, and according to 12.11 those included in the man child overcome because of the blood of the Lamb.

(2) Those mentioned in 7.9 stand before the throne; the man child spoken of in 12.5 is raptured to the throne.

(3) Salvation is attributed to God and to the Lamb in 7.10, and in 12.10 salvation is said to come from God and His Christ.

(4) We read in 7.1-8 that the twelve tribes are sealed, and we read in 12.1 that the woman has upon her head a crown of twelve stars. (The crown of twelve stars does not refer to the twelve apostles, for Joseph dreamed of twelve stars and those clearly pointed to the twelve tribes.)

(5) We find in 7.11 that the angels burst out in praises, and we find in 12.10 that a great voice is heard in heaven.

(6) Since the people spoken of in 7.9 stand before the throne of God they must have resurrection bodies, and likewise the man child spoken of in 12.5 must have a resurrection body. The word "delivered" in verse 5 should be explained according to the rule of interpreting visions, not according to the rule of literal interpretation. From the explanation given in Acts 13.33-34, we can readily see that this is resurrection. Without a resurrection body no one can see God, for he will be reckoned as naked (2 Cor. 5.2,3; Ex. 20.26, 28.42). 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of resurrection as a sure fact; 2 Corinthians 5 speaks of the facts about resurrection. Today there is no Christian before the throne; this will be true later in the future. In Revelation 4.6 no one is shown standing on the glassy sea; only by the time of Revelation 15 will there be people standing on it (v.2 mg.). Acts 2.34 explicitly says that David has not ascended to heaven, and 1 Samuel 28.13-14 definitely states that Samuel came up out of the earth. Both indicate that they have not yet been clothed with a resurrection body. The Lord alone is one who descended out of heaven and yet is in heaven (John 3.13). Even Enoch and Elijah, who were taken to heaven, may presently be placed somewhere else, since they do not have a transformed body.

(7) In 7.15 we have the words "spread his tabernacle over them", in 12.12 we have the words "O heavens, and ye that dwell in them" which in Greek is "ye that tabernacle in them" (see also John 1.14 where "dwelt" in Greek is actually "tabernacled").

(8) Those mentioned in 7.9 are overcomers, for (a) the white garments are promised to those in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, (b) not to pass through the trial of the Great Tribulation to come is assured to those in Philadelphia who have kept the word of patience, and (c) the palm is always a symbol of victory. The man child spoken of in 12.5 is likewise an overcomer, since he will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Just as in a wheat harvest there are firstfruits and a later harvest. Likewise with Christians we do not all overcometh at the same time.

 

[TishaBAv]

As T. Austin Sparks once said, "there are advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere."

 

[zeke37]

again, which book are you getting this plagerism from?

 

[TishaBAv]

Jesus said when Israel becomes a nation ("when his branch is yet tender," Matt. 24.32b) and enters Jerusalem ("and putteth forth leaves," v.32c), you can know the season ("ye know that summer is nigh," v.32d) when He returns even the very day ("when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, right at the door," v.33). Don't let anyone lead you astray and tell you otherwise who will misuse certain verses to follow Satan in saying you can't know.

 

[zeke37]

Brother, u are the one misleading people, with this pre trib rapture falicy.
u must answer for that. Ez44/1Cor5

ps. all us post tribbers claim the Holy spirit, just like u do.
so saying the Holy spirit told you this or that about me or the doctrine i/we follow, just doesn't cut the mustard.

i, and most here, do not/will not believe you, with regards to the timing of the Lord's gathering,
because you see, that happens at the resurrection....not years earlier.
the last day.

and I did answer your post.
Christ is the manchild in question.

what the star signs represents might be up for debate, but the players are not.

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
Israel = a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven;
Satan = and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth
The Lord = a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Rev12 is not a linear / chronological continuation of Rev11. it is an insert.

 

[TishaBAv]

Before the Tribulation starts with the first trumpet (Rev. 8.7ff)-there are a total of 7 trumpets that make up the 7 year Tribulation-we see "before the throne" (7.9) in 3rd heaven the overcomers raptured. Rev. 12 to 19 give the details of the major points of the Tribulation in Rev. 7 to 11. Revelation 6 is the past 20 centuries concurrent with the church age in Rev. 2 & 3. Rev. 4 is the picture of the universe from heaven and Rev. 5 recounts the cross with the 1st Seal in Rev. 6 showing the cross with the imagery of a bow and arrow that looks like a cross giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross because the arrow has been shot. Praise the Lord!

Revelation 3.10 “The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the posttribber onlyist school of interpretation as well as those of the pretribber onlyists. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation. The second school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to pre-tribulation rapture, for it speaks of keeping - that God will “keep” them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23). Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the “keeping” in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word “keep” in this verse there is the word ek which means “out of" (as in the word ekklesia which means “the called out ones&#8221. Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation. And (2) “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial” (3.10a) - As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial, In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.

Luke 21.36 also proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem experienced a terrible destruction, and at the end she will experience a great tribulation. The record in Luke can be outlined as follows: 2 1.8-9 - the things before the end; 10-19 - believers will suffer; 20-28 - how Jerusalem will be destroyed (verse 28 seems to suggest that the saints will all pass through the Tribulation); 29-33 - a parable guaranteeing the certainty of these things to come; and 34-36 - Were it not for this passage, it might be inferred that the whole body of believers would surely be raptured after the Tribulation: yet verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34). If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of both the first and second schools of interpretation. The second school may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass" - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

Other proofs as follows:
(1) By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.

(2) The places to be raptured towards are also different. Whereas Revelation 7.15 mentions to “the throne of God” and Luke 21.36 mentions “to stand before the Son of man”, 1 Thessalonians 4.17 says that it is to “the air” – Such distinctions would thus indicate that the entire body of believers is not raptured all at one time.

(3) Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage relates to pre-tribulation rapture while the second relates to post-tribulation rapture.

As well, a Christian is free to exclude himself from the first rapture because he prefers to be fleshly, but not only will he be excluded from the first rapture, but he can count himself among the 5 unwise virgins so he will not return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years. He will lose this reward. He will be sent to outer darkness outside the light of reward of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. 1000 years is a very long time to lose this blessing. Only then after the 1000 years will he be allowed to enter the New City. God gives you this choice.

 

[dannybias46]

TishaBAv...I've read the book of Revelation at least 100 times. Have you? .....

I have written a book on Revelation and Matthew 24....Curious has to what Church u attend TishaBAv...You seem to run in circles on some of your responses...a lot of misrepresentation of the Scriptures in here...

 

[TishaBAv]

TishaBAv...I've read the book of Revelation at least 100 times. Have you? .....

I have written a book on Revelation and Matthew 24....Curious has to what Church u attend TishaBAv...You seem to run in circles on some of your responses...a lot of misrepresentation of the Scriptures in here...

danny, I have read the book of Revelation at least 100 times too.

You are asking for some denomination but the Bible says don't say I of Cephas or I o Apollos so your question is a false one.

Don't be like Satan with vague false accusations. I am glad you couldn't prove your allegations, and you refuse to deal with the points in this thread which shows your fruit and pointing to self. We shall know you by your fruit whom you belong to. Prove all things. Praise the Lord!

 

[Chaplain David]

Mod Hat On​

Please remember to use I statements, "I think, I believe, I understand" instead of personal you statements "you are, you think, you don't, etc". Please remember that topics are being debated here not posters. Characterizing a poster in derrogatory ways is flaming. I've read this thread and there's been flaming, name calling, put downs, and disparaging remarks about other's Christianity. Knock it off. Please follow the rules and post with the love of Christ, supporting whatever argument is being presented in kindness and with proof where necessary. Any questions, pm me. Thank you.

Mod Hat Off​

 

[TishaBAv]

But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21.36


​

The Lord distinctly promises that the church may escape the Great Tribulation

and "stand before the Son of man" —

This no doubt refers to rapture. Nevertheless, there is a condition involved.

Not for all who are simply born again, but for those born-again ones who watch and pray.

"That ye may prevail" —

If you watch and pray, you may prevail. Hence the promise is given to those who do these things.

Does everyone in the whole church watch and pray?

Let us pay attention to this for if you do not you will not be received at the first rapture and must pass through the hour of trial (Rev. 3.10) to be raptured at the 7th trumpet rapture and resurrection instead (the general rapture and resurrection at the start of the bowls).

 

[son_flower]

Rev 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

 

[TishaBAv]

Don't confuse tribulations which are always happening with the Tribulation of Daniel's final seven.

And don't confuse the aspect of the kingdom in terms of its outward appearance of conduct with the millennial kingdom reign when Jesus returns.

Pray on this. If you need more proof of this just ask.