When Do the 2,520 Days of the Tribulation Take Place?

[Truth Files]

You must know MSOG theology because you are teaching that the "manchild" of Revelation 12 is something other than the Lord Himself .... there are no other theologies that teach this perversion

We will now drop the dialog .... no need to discuss further

 

[TishaBAv]

[FONT=FPAGAO+TimesNewRoman]Now then, to whom does this verse in 12.5 refer? If it is not applicable to the overcomers in the church it must have reference to the Lord Jesus. Yet can it mean the Lord Jesus here? It is highly [/FONT][FONT=FPAGAO+TimesNewRoman]improbable (though not absolutely impossible, since later on we will observe that the Lord Jesus is also included). Why is it not probable? Because as soon as the man child is born he is caught up to the throne of God. It thus indicates that the man child cannot be Christ since the Lord Jesus when on the earth lived for over 33 years, died, and was raised from the dead before He ascended. Hence we believe this man child signifies the overcomers in the church. He represents a part of the church, that part which overcomes. Nonetheless, the man child also [/FONT][FONT=FPAKHH+TimesNewRoman,Italic]includes [/FONT][FONT=FPAGAO+TimesNewRoman]the Lord Jesus since He is the first overcomer and all other overcomers are included in Him. [/FONT]

 

[TishaBAv]

“And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (v.5). Three times in the book of Revelation is this ruling with an iron rod mentioned. The first time is in 2.26,27: “And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron”—This most distinctly points to the overcomers in the church. The last time is in 19.15: “And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron”—This is in reference to the Lord Jesus.

 

[TishaBAv]

In chapter 12 the man child whom the woman delivers is subject to the same principle. This being a vision, it is symbolic in character. The word “delivered” here does not imply the idea of the child coming out and being separated from the woman, it instead implies that within the woman there is such a man child. In other words, a class of people is included in this woman. All the people of God are ordained to have a share in the eternal purpose and plan of God. Due to their failure in taking up responsibility, however, God chooses from among them a number of people. The people whom God has chosen from the many form the man child. The mother represents the whole, the man child represents the remnant. This man child is the “brethren” mentioned in verse 10. He is not one person but is a considerable number of people—a composite of many; though in comparison with the mother, this man child is only a minority. Nevertheless, in spite of their smallness in number as compared to the whole body, the plan and purpose of God is upon them.

 

[zeke37]

pre trib is a lie.

 

[Truth Files]

"In chapter 12 the man child whom the woman delivers is subject to the same principle. This being a vision, it is symbolic in character. The word “delivered” here does not imply the idea of the child coming out and being separated from the woman, it instead implies that within the woman there is such a man child. In other words, a class of people is included in this woman. All the people of God are ordained to have a share in the eternal purpose and plan of God. Due to their failure in taking up responsibility, however, God chooses from among them a number of people. The people whom God has chosen from the many form the man child. The mother represents the whole, the man child represents the remnant. This man child is the “brethren” mentioned in verse 10. He is not one person but is a considerable number of people—a composite of many; though in comparison with the mother, this man child is only a minority. Nevertheless, in spite of their smallness in number as compared to the whole body, the plan and purpose of God is upon them."

>You are obviously teaching MSOG theology ..... and you say you do not know what this off course aberrant theology is

>Yes you do .... and I bet that you know where you learned it .... you should be willing to tell the forum and why you believe the teachers of the "birthing" of the corporate "manchild" doctrine .... but for some reason you choose otherwise

>No need to respond .... I am now convinced of your affiliation as I first thought

 

[TishaBAv]

I don't know what MSOG is. And you don't want to define it. What I have said though is the truth which you were not able to overturn. Praise the Lord!

Obviously what you teach is aberrant since you are unable to overturn the evidence and points given. Why do you keep avoiding the points given?

The orign of the manchild is Revelation 12. Why do you reject God's word?

 

[TishaBAv]

In the Old Testament record there is only one woman who had an encounter with the serpent, and she is Eve of Genesis 3. Now in the New Testament there is also one woman who had a skirmish with the serpent, and she is this woman of Revelation 12. This shows the unity of the Bible.

Here God purposely mentions that the great dragon is the old serpent, thus distinguishing it as the one, same and only old serpent. Likewise, this woman will also be the same woman as in the Garden.

Moreover, as there are sun, moon and stars mentioned in Genesis 1, so there are sun, moon and stars spoken of here. As there is the serpent in Genesis 3, so the serpent is present here. As the seed of the woman is mentioned in Genesis 3, so the seed of the woman is also shown here.

And as travail in birth is predicted in Genesis 3, so travail in birth is presented here. By studying these two passages of the Scriptures together we may conclude that this woman is none other than the woman who has been foreordained in the eternal purpose of God and who will experience such things as these at the last days.

Hence we may say that the woman mentioned in Genesis 2 reveals the eternal will of God; the woman seen in Ephesians 5 unveils the position and future of the church; the woman spoken of in Revelation 12 discloses that which will happen at the last days; and there is yet a woman who will declare what is going to be in eternity.

When this woman appears in the vision now before us, the Bible describes her as “arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars”—And these descriptions have their dispensational meanings:

(1) This woman is arrayed with the sun—the sun points to the Lord Jesus. Since the woman is arrayed with the sun, this indicates that the sun shines at its brightest hour upon the woman. In this dispensation God is manifesting himself through her. This is her relationship with Christ and with the dispensation of grace.

(2) This woman has the moon under her feet—the word “under” does not imply “tread upon”; in the Greek the word simply means a lying under her feet. The light of the moon is not self-producing but is reflective. Things in the dispensation of law only reflect the things in the dispensation of grace, for the law is but a shadow. The holy temple, the ark, the incense and the shewbread, the sacrifices which the priests offer, and even the blood of the bullocks and lambs—all these are types. The moon being under the woman’s feet shows how the things of the law are subjected to her, that is to say, they belong to her. So that this description tells of the woman’s relationship with the dispensation of law.

(3) This woman wears upon her head a crown of twelve stars—the distinguished personages who figured during the dispensation of the patriarchs may be counted from Abraham up to the birth of the twelve tribes of Israel. Wearing such a crown of twelve stars shows the relationship between this woman and the dispensation of the patriarchs.

From the above observations we can understand that this woman is related not only to the dispensation of grace but also to the dispensations of law and of the patriarchs, although here her relationship with the dispensation of grace is most intimate.

And hence representationally this woman includes in herself the people found in the dispensations of the patriarchs and of law as well as in the dispensation of grace.

 

[zeke37]

the manchild is Christ. Acts2 makes that clear, doesn' it?

I think Rev12, up to the war, is a depiction of literal star's, the ecliptic,
pointing to a specific time, possibly above Jerusalem on a certain date.

could this mark the beginning of the trib, is my question?

 

[Truth Files]

The Man Child is in fact Jesus Christ for sure

What mark Z?

And do you mean the fallen ones [starts] that Satan draws

If so, these are the same that fall noted in Revelation 6:13

..... and this one is Satan himself [Revelation 9:1]

 

[zeke37]

mark, as in, begin, the trib.

a specific date.




i agree that the fallen one in Rev 9:1 is Satan.

 

[TishaBAv]

As soon as the man child is born, he is caught up to the throne, whereas the Lord Jesus is taken up to heaven only after He has lived over thirty years, died, and been raised from the dead.

 

[TishaBAv]

12.6 “And the woman fled”—This is the same flight as is depicted in Matthew 24.6-20 and Luke 21.20-24. In 12.1 the woman is seen in heaven, but in 12.6 she is in the wilderness.

After the man child is born she loses her heavenly position. She is none else but the Jerusalem on earth. A wilderness is a place both barren and uninhabited. God nourishes her as He did the children of Israel in the days of the Exodus.

In Galatians 4.21-31 we have a contrast: one is the heavenly Jerusalem, the other is the earthly Jerusalem; one represents the Christians, the other, the Jews; one is typified by Israel, the other, by Ishmael. The essential thought in all this is to prove that we Christians are free in the same way as Isaac was free.

 

[TishaBAv]

Verse 5 “And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne”—In order to know the relationship between this man child and the woman, please read Galatians—”But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother” (4.26). Read also the last clause in the next verse: “For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” (v.27).

The Jerusalem above is the New Jerusalem, which is the woman whom God has prepared to have in eternity to come. She is none other than Eve in creation, the body of Christ in the dispensation of grace, this woman whom we see at the close of the dispensation of grace, and the New Jerusalem God will have in the eternity to come.

A having many children does not suggest that the mother is separated from the children; rather does it mean that the one is divided into many, yet the many are combined into one. By adding up these many children you have the mother. It is not a case of a mother with five children making six, but a case of the five children making up the one mother. Each child is a part of the mother, who imparts a little of herself to each child. They seem as though they are begotten of her, yet actually they are but her own self. Thus the mother is not one who stands alongside her children but is the sum total of many children that are in view. This is a very special principle.

The manchild overcomers are one of the 7 churches since only one was an overcomer church (Rev. 2 & 3), e.g. 5 wise virgins or the one who used his talents or the faithful servant who kept the word of His patience, was watchful and prayerful, keeping the conduct of Matt. 5-7.

 

[zeke37]

pre trib is a lie.

the manchild is Christ.

and there are 2 churches that are not chastized by Christ.
2 of 7 candlesticks (candlesticks=churches Rev1). smyrna and philadelphia.
they also share the same doctrine the others do not have.

Rev11 proves that they are here against the beast.

aswell, Rev12's final verse proves that Christians are here against Satan in the time, times, half a time.


and what is also proof, is that the rapture happens when the dead are raised back here again...
how can any of you see that as pre trib, I dont know.

 

[TishaBAv]

As soon as the man child is born, he is caught up to the throne, whereas the Lord Jesus is taken up to heaven only after He has lived over thirty years, died, and been raised from the dead.

The first rapture is according to readiness. In Matt. 24.40-42 you will be first raptured if you are watchful. In Luke 21.36 if you are prayerful you will be raptured before the Tribulation. In Rev. 3.10 if you keep the word of His patience you will escape the Tribulation.

What happens to the rest of Christians who are alive when the Tribulation starts? Since they did not overcometh, they were not watchful, prayerful and did not keep the word of His patience, they will pass through the Tribulation and be raptured at the last trumpet instead.

 

[TishaBAv]

Revelation 3.10 "The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world"—This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the posttrib onlyism school of interpretation as well as those of the pretrib onlyisim. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, first rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation.

The posttrib onylist school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to a first rapture, for it speaks of keeping—that God will "keep" them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23). Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the "keeping" in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word "keep" in this verse there is the word ek which means "out of" (as in the word ekklesia which means "the called out ones"). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation.

And (2) "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial" (3.10a)—As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial. In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.

 

[zeke37]

As soon as the man child is born, he is caught up to the throne, whereas the Lord Jesus is taken up to heaven only after He has lived over thirty years, died, and been raised from the dead.

only Christ has done that...
it is Christ.
Rev12:1-6 covers 1000s of years in a few verses...
Satan being cast out, marks the final time, times,half a time.

The first rapture is according to readiness.

no such thing. fantasy.

however, whoever is gathered to Christ, will certainly have to be ready...obviously.
but that gathering happens after the tribulation of those days.
there is no such thing as a pre trib or mid trib rapture.

In Matt. 24.40-42 you will be first raptured if you are watchful.

The teaching of who is left and who is taken, is misunderstood by most all pretribbers.
you have just demonstrated that.

the ones taken, in the flood, were the wicked...
they were taken in the flood.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
​

so, the occupations they have, working in the field, grinding at the mill,
are analogies for working for the Lord.

as you can plainly see, the ones taken were taken in the flood...
not raptured by the Lord...but the opposite.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
​

the enemy is coming FIRST, so we must be on guard.
if you think you are not here in the trib, you wont be watching for the enemy.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
​

we must remain working for the Lord until He comes.Pre trib teaches against this.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
​

Pre tribbers believe they will not be here in that time(trib).
since this is not the case, they(you) wont even see the time when it is here.
they (you) will never believe it is the trib, as long as they(you) are here on earth...

and that is a shame.


so, as you can see, those taken in Mat24, are taken in the flood...not raptured by the Lord.
right?

In Luke 21.36 if you are prayerful you will be raptured before the Tribulation.

huh?
escape by following the instructions on what to do in that time.
not literally leaving the planet.

the trib is going to come as a snare to all of us.
but we can escape that snare by being patient and waiting for the true Messiah to come...
which is after the trib of those days.

In Rev. 3.10 if you keep the word of His patience you will escape the Tribulation.

patience and early departure do not go hand in hand.
let us examine the scripture and see if it holds to pre trib or not.

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
​

if we are here in the trib, then we could either keep His Word or not...
and we could also either deny Him or not.

hard to have that choice if we are not here in that time.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
​

so, first, for this to be pre trib, God must first make those of the synagogue of Satan, worship before your feet.
It seems to me this is more in the time of the trib...false Christ and his ministers.

10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
​

so, keeping patience does not mean leaving early...infact the opposite.

11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
​

what would there be to fight for, if we are raptured early.
how could we loose our crown then?
but if we are here in the trib, and there is a delusion so great that most all are fooled, well....

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
​

overcometh....hard to do that if you are raptured away early.

13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
​

What happens to the rest of Christians who are alive when the Tribulation starts?

all of us will be here. there is no pre trib rapture.
the elect Christians will be sealed by God and be safe through the trib.
the rest, well....they gotta go through it a little differently...
we will see what happens on the other side.

Since they did not overcometh, they were not watchful, prayerful and did not keep the word of His patience, they will pass through the Tribulation and be raptured at the last trumpet instead.

that describes all but the 144,000.

we all go through the trib...all of us.
even the 144,000.


I was a pre tribber...thankfully not any longer.
what a con job.

just so you know, u have not made even one point that would sway any studied post tribber.

 

[TishaBAv]

The man child is born in an instant. Nobody is "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven yet these past two thousand years. In an instant there will be 144,000 standing on mount zion in 3rd heaven. There are no believers in 3rd heaven, for we are raptured during the final seven together. "Travailing in birth" occurs these 2000 years, but "pained to be delivered" (Rev. 12.2) occurs in an instant. Being delivered refers to being raptured. Satan tries to devour the overcomers just as they are about to be raptured at the first rapture as soon as we are born: "as soon as it was born" (Rev. 12.4).

 

[TishaBAv]

Problems with posttrib onlyism:

A. Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half year's period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.

B. Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

C. The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

D. The postrib onlyist view do not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, “Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.

E. A posttrib onlyist views the twelve disciples as being purely Christians in direct contrast with the view of the first school which considers these twelve as being merely Jews. As a matter of fact, however, these twelve disciples are Christians as well as representatives of the Jewish remnant. For example, in Matthew 10.5-6 and 23.3 we see that all have a Jewish background, a fact which is thus inapplicable to Christians.

F. There is a failure in this posttrib onlyist view to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord, "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives. So does the prophecy which is given in Revelation: “Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen” (1.7). In taking the historical view, the posttribber onlyist line of interpretation regards that part of Revelation up to chapter 17 as having already been fulfilled, with only the part from chapter 17 onward waiting to be fulfilled. (This is exactly opposite to the futuristic view taken by the first school of interpretation which deems only chapters 1-3 as having already been fulfilled, with the rest remaining to be so). If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!