when demonised born again believers get to HEAVEN, then what happens to their demons?

[Francis Drake]

Born again believers cannot be demon-possessed. The spirit of God resides within them and He doesn't share "His possession" with Satan's clan.

There's no scriptural basis for the notion that Christians cannot have demons.

I have cast thousands of demons out of people since the 1970s, and every last one from bible believing Christians.

 

[Francis Drake]

No one knows for sure. Demons cannot possess a Christian, but they can dwell on our physical bodies.

Of course demons can indwell Christians, that's why Jesus commanded us to cast them OUT, not off people. ​

 

[Francis Drake]

Hi WrappedUpinHisLove,

Yes, believers can be oppressed, but cannot be possessed by demons. They are the property of Jesus Christ, having been bought with a price.

This planet is bought and paid for by Jesus, but is still filled with demons.

Regardless of how someone may appear (i.e., "a very serious born again believer"), if a demon was cast out of someone like that legitimately, they were not saved.

Total nonsense.
I have been in the deliverance ministry for over 40 years, and have cast thousands demons out of people, and every one of them, bible believing Christians.

We have to stand on the Word of God and not our experiences when it comes to these things and beliefs. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 explicitly says believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit, were bought with a price, and are no longer "their own." They are the redeemed. Additionally, they have been declared righteous before God because of the blood of Jesus, having been sanctified, justified, and set apart by Him and for Him. These clear descriptions in the Word leave no room for believers to be possessed and controlled by demons. Oppressed? Yes. Possessed? Absolutely not!

None of the above scriptures negate demons indwelling believers.

The argument over possessed or oppressed is a foolish man made nonsense.
The scriptures call it "demonised", and Jesus commanded us to cast those demons OUT of people, not off them!
You are right that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, but so was the temple of Solomon. And as Ezekiel reveals, the religious leaders of Judah, whilst the Holy Spirit was still in residence, had erected many idols (with their associated demons) within that temple.
This disproves your theory that there would be no room for demons in a believer.

 

[Junia]

This planet is bought and paid for by Jesus, but is still filled with demons.

Total nonsense.
I have been in the deliverance ministry for over 40 years, and have cast thousands demons out of people, and every one of them, bible believing Christians.

None of the above scriptures negate demons indwelling believers.

The argument over possessed or oppressed is a foolish man made nonsense.
The scriptures call it "demonised", and Jesus commanded us to cast those demons OUT of people, not off them!
You are right that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, but so was the temple of Solomon. And as Ezekiel reveals, the religious leaders of Judah, whilst the Holy Spirit was still in residence, had erected many idols (with their associated demons) within that temple.
This disproves your theory that there would be no room for demons in a believer.

thank you!!! i am so glad someone is talking sense on this!! the only demonised people i have seen exorcised have been believers. i was one of them!

 

[Francis Drake]

thank you!!! i am so glad someone is talking sense on this!! the only demonised people i have seen exorcised have been believers. i was one of them!

In my 40 odd years of ministering deliverance to Christians, I am also one of those delivered, and delivered many times from demons hidden away in my life. Casting them out always changes things for the better. Its amazing how the mindset of Christians are subtly controlled by hidden demons.

In fact one of the most subtle "Doctrines of Demons" is the church based lie that Christians can't be demonised!
Purveyors of such lies need to repent and cast that demon out, otherwise they will never be free to obey Christ's great commission command to drive out demons!

 

[Kris Jordan]

There's no scriptural basis for the notion that Christians cannot have demons.

I have cast thousands of demons out of people since the 1970s, and every last one from bible believing Christians.

Hi Francis Drake,

Please describe (1) how you know a person was possessed by a demon prior and, (2) how you know an evil spirit came out of them.

 

[Francis Drake]

Hi Francis Drake,

Please describe
(1) how you know a person was possessed by a demon prior and,

I know from various sources how demons operate in people's lives, such as reading the gospels, from the gift of discernment, and from 40 years experience in doing what Jesus said.

(2) how you know an evil spirit came out of them.

When a demon is cast out, it often comes with a reaction in the person, as sometimes happens when Jesus did it. That might be as simple as a burp, sneezing, coughing or great exhalations of wind or dry retching. The Greek word for 'spirit' is also 'wind' or 'breath', so such manifestations are not surprising.
Occasionally the person might convulse or have other muscular reactions, but mostly there is little more than exhalation as the spirit leaves.

The best witness that deliverance gives should of course be a greater spiritual freedom.

Although it has been a part of my walk for the last 40 odd years, I do not believe there should be such a thing as a deliverance "ministry".
Scripture makes it clear that casting demons out should be a natural part of every believer's life, therefore when people come for help, I am more interested in getting them to a place where they can do the deliverance for themselves, rather than depend on me.
Hopefully as they grow in the Lord, they will be able to address other areas in their lives which need liberating.

 

[Kris Jordan]

I know from various sources how demons operate in people's lives, such as reading the gospels, from the gift of discernment, and from 40 years experience in doing what Jesus said.

HI Francis Drake,

I should have been more clear in my first question. When I asked you to describe "how you know a person was possessed by a demon prior," I was referring to before you "cast it out of them." In other words, what definitive signs were they exhibiting that indicated they were literally possessed by a demonic spirit and not experiencing something else?

Your answer to my second question of "how do you know an evil spirit came out of them (a born-again believer)," when you said someone burps, sneezes, coughs, or exhales as a "sign" a demon was cast out, sounds nothing like what we see in biblical examples. No demon who is control of a person is going to exit by burping, coughing, or anything like it. See Mark 9.

Respectfully, this sounds very reminiscent of nonsensical "signs" some exhibit who claim to have been baptized by the Holy Spirit by barking like a dog or crawling around on the floor like an animal. None of this is Scriptural.

I don't know what things are going on inside people who you think are possessed by demons, but perhaps the problem lies in what you associate as a demon. Demons are evil, wicked powers of darkness who (can) inhabit unbelievers and control them fully. They may allow some actions by that person to be of their own accord, but make no mistake about it - demons are in control of those whom they possess. Things I'm hearing about in this thread as being "demons" are no such thing. They are not demonic spirits controlling a person. They may be OPPRESSING believers, but not possessing believers.

I'm sure you will disagree, but the truth is the truth.

Just out of curiosity, what do you base your belief upon that born-again believers in Jesus Christ CAN be demonically POSSESED?

 

[Cheryl6397]

Born again believers cannot be demon-possessed. The spirit of God resides within them and He doesn't share "His possession" with Satan's clan.

I am Gods possession. What an amazing thought. I mean, I know I am His daughter and that just overwhelms me. Thanks for reminding me

 

[renniks]

This question probably shows that i have too much time on my hands right now but am curious:

When a true born again Christian dies, their spirits go to Heaven (because the spirit man or woman is sealed in Christ and completely redeemed). But let us say that the Christian although they were fit for salvation still struggled with demonic oppression and had not been delivered when they died, where do their demons go?

i know this probably sounds silly but i dont have much of a theological training and am just curious? considering demon oppression can mean anything including sicknesses, night terrors, seeing demons, having a habit they can't shake off eg smoking, lying etc

please note that this os a theologival question not a personal one. when we get to heaven we will be in the joy of the Lord so doubt we will be worried about it. am just asking out of idle curiosity. i guess i need a new hobby or something lol

Demonic oppression is not possession. So they are gonna shed those suckers like scraping off leaches.

 

[Kris Jordan]

I am Gods possession. What an amazing thought. I mean, I know I am His daughter and that just overwhelms me. Thanks for reminding me

Hi Cheryl6397,

You are His beloved, His redeemed, His chosen one, having placed your faith in Jesus Christ for what He did on the cross for you! What a great comfort to know we have been purchased by the blood of Jesus and are HIS and HIS ALONE! He is a "jealous" God who does NOT share His redeemed children with demonic spirits nor Satan himself. We can be oppressed, but never possessed since we belong to Jesus through His shed blood.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Possession and possessing are different ideas. It is more true that someone possesses a demon than that they are possessed by one. The heart that has received the Spirit is clear of spirits, but they move elsewhere. When a contemporary deliverance minister drives off an unclean spirit, he commands it not to make noise or humiliate the person. Or else they scream... But with compassionate Christian culture, we made a different method to the examples from the Gospel. Jesus was plundering the Kingdom of Satan, now He has defeated it. We have the power of the blood.

When a spirit comes out, after perhaps only moving places, it comes out in a breath or in spittle... to be kind to the one being delivered. This is not like forceful exorcism. If the spirit is driven out the subject is injured by the spirit and needs to be healed of this experience in itself. So like people falling down and shaking and quaking... it is kind but not a literal sign from scripture, but bears Christian marks and fruit fitting for the Kingdom of God.

 

[Francis Drake]

HI Francis Drake,

I should have been more clear in my first question. When I asked you to describe "how you know a person was possessed by a demon prior," I was referring to before you "cast it out of them." In other words, what definitive signs were they exhibiting that indicated they were literally possessed by a demonic spirit and not experiencing something else?

I already answered this, but discernment is the prime tool in deliverance.

Your answer to my second question of "how do you know an evil spirit came out of them (a born-again believer)," when you said someone burps, sneezes, coughs, or exhales as a "sign" a demon was cast out, sounds nothing like what we see in biblical examples.

You can also add yawning as a common manifestation when an evil spirit departs.

No demon who is control of a person is going to exit by burping, coughing, or anything like it. See Mark 9.

You are just arguing from ignorance, not knowledge. But Mark9 is just one example among many and such violent reactions are very infrequent.
And FYI, in my first experience of being set free, the man simply laid hands on me to pray, and I ended up across the other side of the room.
According to my wife, I flew across the room like I'd just been slugged by John Wayne in a bar fight, although I felt and knew nothing when I came too a few moments later.

Respectfully, this sounds very reminiscent of nonsensical "signs" some exhibit who claim to have been baptized by the Holy Spirit by barking like a dog or crawling around on the floor like an animal. None of this is Scriptural.

Do you seriously think it helps your case, quoting silly stuff about other people elsewhere that's got nothing to do with me?
Its called a straw man argument, congratulations, you win every time, (in your own head).

I don't know what things are going on inside people who you think are possessed by demons, but perhaps the problem lies in what you associate as a demon. Demons are evil, wicked powers of darkness who (can) inhabit unbelievers and control them fully. They may allow some actions by that person to be of their own accord, but make no mistake about it - demons are in control of those whom they possess.

You really know nothing at all do you. The amount of control a demon has over a person is hugely variable, from hardly anything, to almost but not quite total control. remember, the man with the Legion of demons, he still had sufficient freewill to approach Jesus for help.

Things I'm hearing about in this thread as being "demons" are no such thing. They are not demonic spirits controlling a person. They may be OPPRESSING believers, but not possessing believers.

This nonsense about Oppressed or possessed, is not found in scripture. The word is simply "demonised". An scripture always shows demons being cast OUT of people, proving they were inside them.

I'm sure you will disagree, but the truth is the truth.

Except you've not presented the truth, just your opinion.

Just out of curiosity, what do you base your belief upon that born-again believers in Jesus Christ CAN be demonically POSSESED?

When it comes to casting demons out, scripture makes no differentiation whatsoever as to whether the victim was a believer or not. Therefore it is up to you to demonstrate they were unbelievers!

But here's the commandment of Jesus.
Mark16v15And He said to them, “Having gone into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation. 16The one having believed and having been baptized will be saved, but the one having disbelieved will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those having believed: In My name they will cast out demons...….........

Being that you are such an expert on the subject, please tell me how many times you have cast demons out?

 

[Francis Drake]

In one of my very early experiences of the deliverance ministry about 40 years ago, a lady visitor at church asked for prayer.
I was on the prayer ministry rota that day with a friend and we sat with this lady and asked her how we could help. She was struggling with various issues of unbelief etc. and I then suggested we wait on the Lord for a 'Word of knowledge' before we prayed.

Very quickly, I received the rhema words, 'Spirit of Mormon'. I gave this word to the lady, and she became quite indignant, declaring that she had never had anything to do with Mormonism. I apologised and we moved forward onto other things.

About half an hour later, she suddenly gasped and put her hand to her mouth. She then apologised profusely and started to relate the following story.
When she was a child, her mother was talking to her about her ancestors. As part of that she described the fact that her great, great, great etc. grandfather, had in 1847 gone out to Salt Lake Utah with Brigham Young on his great wagon train of Mormon pioneers.

The demonic 'spirit of Mormon' which had come on her ancestor, had travelled down her family line for over 130 years, and across the Atlantic, ending up in the lady sitting across from us in the UK.
Needless to say, we cast it out and set her free from its interference in her spiritual life.

It is obscure things like this which show the need for the gift of discernment when ministering to people.

 

[Francis Drake]

Another odd deliverance experience.

In the home group which I jointly ran, there was a married couple who were struggling with an elderly sick mother.

This lady was quite a strong believer, but seemed to have a list of chronic ailments as long as her arm. It meant that on meeting nights, frequently it was only the man who came, his wife attending to her mother in hospital.
The old lady was in constant pain, and really just wanted to go home to be with the Lord. Her life was at an end, and she knew it, but she just lingered on, and on.

One night, the man came alone again and made the usual request that we pray the Lord takes his mother in law soon, for her and their sakes.

On this occasion, I asked that before we prayed as per usual, that we wait on the lord for a word of knowledge. Very shortly, I had an open picture, a very strange one. I saw a human heart, but it was surrounded and gripped by a very dark, evil entity. This entity had no form, just a black, almost jelly like substance, but it was giving the lady's heart a regular squeeze, pumping the blood around.
In basic terms, it was obvious that a demon was around her heart, keeping her alive and in constant pain, a living death!

I described to the group what I could see, and then in agreement, I commanded the evil spirit to let go of her heart and flee. That was all.

About 10 minutes later, the phone rang, and it was the lady asking for her husband to collect her from the hospital. She then said that her mother had died. I asked how long ago, 10 minutes was her answer!

As soon as I commanded the demon to go, the lady died from heart failure. And she went home where she had desperately wanted to be.

 

[Kris Jordan]

I already answered this, but discernment is the prime tool in deliverance.


You can also add yawning as a common manifestation when an evil spirit departs.


You are just arguing from ignorance, not knowledge. But Mark9 is just one example among many and such violent reactions are very infrequent.

And FYI, in my first experience of being set free, the man simply laid hands on me to pray, and I ended up across the other side of the room.

According to my wife, I flew across the room like I'd just been slugged by John Wayne in a bar fight, although I felt and knew nothing when I came too a few moments later.


Do you seriously think it helps your case, quoting silly stuff about other people elsewhere that's got nothing to do with me?

Its called a straw man argument, congratulations, you win every time, (in your own head).


You really know nothing at all do you. The amount of control a demon has over a person is hugely variable, from hardly anything, to almost but not quite total control. remember, the man with the Legion of demons, he still had sufficient freewill to approach Jesus for help.


This nonsense about Oppressed or possessed, is not found in scripture. The word is simply "demonised". An scripture always shows demons being cast OUT of people, proving they were inside them.


Except you've not presented the truth, just your opinion.


When it comes to casting demons out, scripture makes no differentiation whatsoever as to whether the victim was a believer or not. Therefore it is up to you to demonstrate they were unbelievers!


But here's the commandment of Jesus.

Mark16v15And He said to them, “Having gone into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation. 16The one having believed and having been baptized will be saved, but the one having disbelieved will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those having believed: In My name they will cast out demons...….........


Being that you are such an expert on the subject, please tell me how many times you have cast demons out?

Hi Francis Drake,


A believer does not need to "cast demons out" to know what the Word of God teaches about the topic of demon possession. Furthermore, we are to verify everything - including our experiences - according to God's Word and what He says about the subject. We should never use our experiences as a foundation for determining the truth if God's Word teaches to the contrary.

First, I am not questioning or disputing the things you have witnessed over the past several decades. I believe you have seen the things you are describing. What I am debating are the conclusions you have drawn about them, and the things you are purporting to others as being “biblical,” based upon your eye-witness accounts and assumptions rather than on the truths and principles taught in God’s Word.

Next, I am not arguing against believers casting out demons from unbelievers. That is stated in Scripture, as you noted in Mark 16:17.

I am also not arguing against demon-possession itself. People can absolutely be demonically possessed. That is a biblical fact. I am, however, vehemently opposing the claim you are making that born-again believers can be possessed by demons. That is unbiblical.

When Paul writes to believers about the topic of demonic powers and influences in believer’s lives, he states in Ephesians 6:12, "we wrestle against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." This is absolutely true. We do “wrestle against” these powers. However, nowhere in the New Testament are believers told to be careful or they might become possessed by demons OR to use the armor of God as a protective defense against becoming possessed. Instead, Paul instructs believers on how to squelch their fiery darts. There is a huge difference between being attacked by ungodly forces and being possessed by them.

This biblical, yet symbolic armor includes:

• The Belt of Truth: Knowing the basic doctrines of the faith according to the Word of God and standing upon them in faith to fight against the lies of the enemy (or others).

• The Breastplate of Righteousness: Knowing who we are as believers in Christ, based upon God’s Word and what He says about us. Therefore, we are saints clothed in His righteousness and filled with the Holy Spirit. We are the redeemed. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We are His workmanship and His purchased possession. We stand on these truths when Satan lies and tells us otherwise.

• The Preparation of the Gospel of Peace: Having a prepared foundation in the truth of the gospel, so we know what it teaches and what it has provided to us. We stand in these truths and walk in the peace they give us, even when attacked by the evil one.

• The Shield of Faith: Standing firm in our faith of who we are and what God says about us so we can walk in those truths and use them to defend and distinguish the fiery darts of the enemy who tries to convince us otherwise.

• The Helmet of Salvation: Knowing and affirming we are saved, knowing and declaring we have been born again as evidenced by the indwelling Holy Spirit. We use these truths of Scripture to war against the lies of the enemy who tells us otherwise.

• The Sword of the Spirit: Taking the truths, doctrines, principles, precepts, and teachings of God’s Word and believing them over anyone or anything else. We also use them to defend against Satan’s lies, attacks, deceptions, and false doctrines.

• Prayer: The fervent, effectual prayer of the righteous accomplishes much against Satan’s strategies against us.

Next, show me in the New Testament where a demon actually possessed a born-again believer. Then show me how the early church dealt with this dilemma biblically. To be clear, I am not speaking of someone who is “wrestling against” demonic forces, as described in Ephesians 6. I am speaking of possession – demonic possession -- where a demonic spirit has entered a believer to possess them.

Finally, Paul states some very important facts about us as believers in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20. First, he says that believer’s bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. That is important to note. He also says they are not their own but were bought with a price through the blood of Jesus. Finally, he says our bodies and our spirit are God’s. This does not paint any hint of a picture that born-again, redeemed, purchased possessions of God - the Church - can be possessed by a demonic spirit.

Therefore, we must stand on God’s Word and not the word of others, their claims, or experiences.

 

[Francis Drake]

A believer does not need to "cast demons out" to know what the Word of God teaches about the topic of demon possession. Furthermore, we are to verify everything - including our experiences - according to God's Word and what He says about the subject. We should never use our experiences as a foundation for determining the truth if God's Word teaches to the contrary.

Despite accusing me, you have done none of the above, otherwise you wouldn't be making such claims.

First, I am not questioning or disputing the things you have witnessed over the past several decades. I believe you have seen the things you are describing. What I am debating are the conclusions you have drawn about them, and the things you are purporting to others as being “biblical,” based upon your eye-witness accounts and assumptions rather than on the truths and principles taught in God’s Word.

I started moving in deliverance precisely because of what I read in scripture.
I read the scriptures.
I believed what I read.
I started obeying what I read.
The eye witness results proved what I read was still true for today in the Body of Christ.

Next, I am not arguing against believers casting out demons from unbelievers. That is stated in Scripture, as you noted in Mark 16:17.

Mark 16 says nothing about casting demons out of unbelievers!

I am also not arguing against demon-possession itself. People can absolutely be demonically possessed. That is a biblical fact. I am, however, vehemently opposing the claim you are making that born-again believers can be possessed by demons. That is unbiblical.

Again, its nothing to do with being "possessed". The word is "demonization", go check it out.
And there's not one single scripture stating that demonization cannot happen to believers.

Next, show me in the New Testament where a demon actually possessed a born-again believer. Then show me how the early church dealt with this dilemma biblically. To be clear, I am not speaking of someone who is “wrestling against” demonic forces, as described in Ephesians 6. I am speaking of possession – demonic possession -- where a demonic spirit has entered a believer to possess them.

No, that's not my job to prove.
My position is that in the multitude of deliverances in the gospels, there is no evidence that the people were unbelievers.
You are the one claiming they were all unbelievers, therefore it is down to you to demonstrate it from scripture.
So far, you have shown absolutely nothing, zilch, zero, from scripture that shows a believer cannot have a demon. You have merely leapt to a conclusion based on what you've been taught!
And please stop using "possessed" as it's not what scripture states.

But for your information, nobody in their right mind should do deliverance on unbelievers.
Here's what Jesus said on the subject.
Luke11v24When the unclean spirit is gone out from the man, it passes through waterless places, seeking rest and not finding any. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house, from where I came out.’ 25And having come, it finds it swept and put in order. 26Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having entered, they dwell there; and the last of that man becomes worse than the first.”
The above clearly indicates that Jesus never did deliverance on unbelievers!

If I cast demons out of unbelievers, having no defences, it leaves them in great danger of an even worse attack from demons.

You might suggest that we convert them first, but according to you, once converted, all demons have to flee, and if that's true, then deliverance has no place in scripture at all, and Jesus was talking nonsense.

 

[Kris Jordan]

So far, you have shown absolutely nothing, zilch, zero, from scripture that shows a believer cannot have a demon. You have merely leapt to a conclusion based on what you've been taught!

Interesting response. I gave you several biblical facts on the topic, but you chose to disregard them because they contradict or conflict with your "experiences."

"The above [Luke 11] clearly indicates that Jesus never did deliverance on unbelievers!"

This claim is bizarre and heretical. If your claim were true and biblical, it would mean the demoniac at the tombs was saved before Jesus cast his legion of demons out.

The reference in Luke 11 is the picture of a person delivered from a demon, but not yet filled with the Holy Spirit. Them being "swept and put in order" references the man's house (person, being) being now clean (demon-free) and put in order (no longer in chaotic disarray from the demonic spirit). If he were not to get saved after being delivered and set-free, he could potentially become possessed by even more demons than before, and be in a worse position spiritually.

If I cast demons out of unbelievers, having no defenses, it leaves them in great danger of an even worse attack from demons. You might suggest that we convert them first, but according to you, once converted, all demons have to flee, and if that's true, then deliverance has no place in scripture at all, and Jesus was talking nonsense!

See my previous answer above. However, I will add that, in light of my answer above, Jesus' promise to the father at the end of Mark 9:25 was an "extra" blessing to both of them - in addition to having this demon cast out - because Jesus guaranteed it would never return to possess this young man again, saved or not.

There is a place for deliverance of the unsaved who are possessed by a demonic spirit. It requires their demon or demons to be cast out. This is biblically sound.

There is a place for deliverance of the saved who are oppressed by satanic forces. It requires them to surrender to the Holy Spirit and follow the instructions from the Word, including what Paul taught in Ephesians 6 for withstanding the attacks of the enemy.

Believers cannot be possessed by demonic spirits. 1 John 4:4 clearly states of believers:

• "You are of God, little children, and have overcome them (spirits which are not of God described in verses 1-3), because He who is IN you (the Holy Spirit) is greater than he (Satan and his demons) who is IN the world.

These ungodly spirits of Satan are in the world, not in believers, for they belong to Jesus.

Case closed.

 

[Junia]

Hi Cheryl6397,

You are His beloved, His redeemed, His chosen one, having placed your faith in Jesus Christ for what He did on the cross for you! What a great comfort to know we have been purchased by the blood of Jesus and are HIS and HIS ALONE! He is a "jealous" God who does NOT share His redeemed children with demonic spirits nor Satan himself. We can be oppressed, but never possessed since we belong to Jesus through His shed blood.

,me too. i was born again in 2006. so that means i amGods posession also! woo hoo!