What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

[Jord Simcha]

Read the Magnificat in Luke 1:46-55 and then tell me whether you think John received the greater blessing. Even John leaped in the womb of Elizabeth at the sound of Mary's voice.
If Mary accepting the bearing of Christ in her womb is not proof enough of her commitment to follow Christ and God's work, I don't know what is.
What about all the Apostles who followed Christ? Did they have to wait until Pentecost too? The thief on the cross who was with Christ that same day in Paradise?

My view is (I'm not saying it's infallible) that the apostles weren't born again until pentecost, so yes they weren't greater than John the Baptist until after that moment.

Who got a greater blessing? I really can't say nor do I really care tbh. Maybe we'll find out in heaven.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

Mary was born of the seed of man and therefore was subject to original sin. Beyond that Mary refers to Jesus as her savior. Those who have not sinned have no need for a savior.

 

[WanderedHome]

My view is (I'm not saying it's infallible) that the apostles weren't born again until pentecost, so yes they weren't greater than John the Baptist until after that moment.

Who got a greater blessing? I really can't say nor do I really care tbh. Maybe we'll find out in heaven.

It is really a hard topic- I don't perfectly understand everything myself, but thanks for being a good sport!

You actually brought up a good question- which I don't really have an answer to, but I posed it on the Ancient Way Forum. Title, "Born Again..." Feel free to drop by and see if any other EO's have anything to say about it. Of course, keeping in mind forum guidlines. You are welcome to ask questions, just don't argue.

 

[WanderedHome]

In the Orthodox view, Jesus came to save us from sin, yes- that is the general understanding- but it wasn't just our own personal sins we've committed that He saves us from, but also to save us from the consequences of sin (which is death). He saves us from other's sins against us- AND- this is important- to NOT ONLY restore us to the grace we had as humans in the pre-fall state, but to eternally make us into the image of God. ALL of this is part of salvation. It is not simply just a legal transaction, but is the journey of repentance and being re-made in His image. God is infinite, so our growth in Him will never end.

@Redwingfan9 This is a comment I made about a page back. This answers your statement. This is actually what the Orthodox call Theosis. Or as the Reformed would call, "progressive sanctification."

 

[Blade]

OT They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

"among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

We are all born into sin. This is a fallen world. Only ONE IS sinless.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

Is that not enough?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Was the Virgin Mary sinless _or_ in need of the Savior?

The Virgin Mary was sinless _AND_ in need of the Savior.

Most of us sin and are saved from our sins. Mary was saved from sinning. She needed a savior just like all of the rest of us, but that saving was applied differently. When understood this way there is no dilemma, as if it had to be either one way or the other. Mary can need a savior, have a savior, and have been protected from ever sinning.

 

[archer75]

Probably beause of people like you, eastern orthodox, catholics and similar, who are trying to make Mary to be somebody supernatural.

That leads to reactions like "is there something in the Bible that disproves that?".

We do not consider Mary, the Mother of God, to be in any way "supernatural." She was more "natural" than we are, in that she was completely obedient to the will of God.

 

[Cis.jd]

Probably beause of people like you, eastern orthodox, catholics and similar.
.

ah. you mean the people whose church didn't come to existence until around the 1400's?

 

[April_Rose]

The Virgin Mary was sinless _AND_ in need of the Savior.

Most of us sin and are saved from our sins. Mary was saved from sinning. She needed a savior just like all of the rest of us, but that saving was applied differently. When understood this way there is no dilemma, as if it had to be either one way or the other. Mary can need a savior, have a savior, and have been protected from ever sinning.

I'm sorry but this is just unbiblical. If Mary was sinless then she could have just as easily been the one that God put on the cross. Jesus was and is the only sinless person that ever existed period!

 

[thecolorsblend]

Mary: "My spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour"
Luke 1:47

Afaik, literally nobody denies that Our Lady gave birth to her own Savior. The text you quote establishes nothing of relevance to this thread.

 

[fewme]

The "who is my mother?" passage implies that she didn't do the will of God perfectly.

(Matthew 12:47-50)

That's a stretch, really. Jesus then call family to all those He was called to save.

 

[solid_core]

Afaik, literally nobody denies that Our Lady gave birth to her own Savior. The text you quote establishes nothing of relevance to this thread.

What is your definition of saving, then? Please elaborate how it fits into sinlessness.

 

[prodromos]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

That may simply be an example of synecdoche, just like in Matthew 3:4-6

Now John wore a garment of camel’s hair, and a leather girdle around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.​

Genesis 5:21-24 seems to imply that Enoch did not sin, which would further support "all" being synecdoche.

When Enoch had lived sixty-five years, he became the father of Methu′selah. Enoch walked with God after the birth of Methu′selah three hundred years, and had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.​

 

[Dave L]

John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb.
“for he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink, and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.” Luke 1:15 (NCPB)

All believers in OT times and before were born-again. Possibly Mary was born again in the same sense John was and overcame Adam's sin residing in her. As born-again people do every day.

 

[prodromos]

I'm sorry but this is just biblical. If Mary was sinless then she could have just as easily been the one that God put on the cross. Jesus was and is the only sinless person that ever existed period!

No, it wasn't just being sinless that allowed Jesus to save us, it was His being both God and man, because only by being both could Jesus destroy death. Everyone needs salvation from death and corruption, whether they have sinned or not. 1 Corinthians 20-26

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.​

 

[Andrewn]

@WanderedHome @chevyontheriver @archer75 @Cis.jd @thecolorsblend @prodromos

Where does the doctrine that St Mary was sinless come from? Did the Nicene / pre-Nicene Fathers claim this? I don't think so.

But I will accept their opinion if you have references.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

One should be enough to show she was a sinner. What texts show she was not?

 

[Neostarwcc]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

Yup, that text. And Jesus said one time that his parents and siblings were not his family but those who do the will of God are. You would think that if his mother was sinless he would have included her as part of his family that "does the will of God."

His mother was a sinner like the rest of us. She might have committed less sins than most humans

When Paul said No one, he meant no human born of a sin nature. Christ was born from the Holy Spirit so he had no sin nature so he didn't count.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

In the Orthodox view, Jesus came to save us from sin, yes- that is the general understanding- but it wasn't just our own personal sins we've committed that He saves us from, but also to save us from the consequences of sin (which is death). He saves us from other's sins against us- AND- this is important- to NOT ONLY restore us to the grace we had as humans in the pre-fall state, but to eternally make us into the image of God. ALL of this is part of salvation. It is not simply just a legal transaction, but is the journey of repentance and being re-made in His image. God is infinite, so our growth in Him will never end.

II Peter 1