What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

[StillGods]

Matthew 49:6 And behold Mary, the mother of Jesus, who never sinned.

 

[thecolorsblend]

What is your definition of saving, then? Please elaborate how it fits into sinlessness.

As a special grace, Our Lady was conceived without the stain of original sin. The redemption the faithful experience through Christ was also experienced by Our Lady. The difference, however, is that it was applied to her early. Our Lord's sacrifice is four-dimensional in nature, applying to all the faithful, past, present and future. He remains her savior because He's the only savior there is.

Hence, pointing out that she needed a savior (which nobody denies) proves nothing relevant either way in relation to her sinlessness.

 

[Andrewn]

@concretecamper @Fidelibus @chilehed @thecolorsblend

Anybody can answer the challenge I posted in #37?!!

 

[April_Rose]

Matthew 49:6 And behold Mary, the mother of Jesus, who never sinned.

That's my favorite verse out of the book of non-existent Bible quotes. XD

Hence, pointing out that she needed a savior (which nobody denies) proves nothing relevant either way in relation to her sinlessness.

In what way? That's like saying that you still need a band-aid even if you're not hurt.

 

[StillGods]

She went ahead of the perfect timing of God, and did not listen to Jesus, presuming to know better than God.

John 2:1-5
On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” Jesus said to her, 'Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.' His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.

 

[concretecamper]

@concretecamper @Fidelibus @chilehed @thecolorsblend

Anybody can answer the challenge I posted in #37?!!

First, if you do any research, you will find a host of Church Fathers that look at Mary as sinless.

Second, the same Church that told you that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are inspired text is the same Church that tells you Mary was /is sinless. The same Church that has defined the Trinity in ways that far exceed what the bible has to say (and most protestants accept) is the same Church that says Mary is/was sinless

Third, if you limit your knowledge of the Christian faith to what you think the bible is saying, you are distancing yourself from the treasure which is His Church. The bible doesnt claim to hold the sum total of the Christian faith. The bible isnt the foundation of truth for a Christian. St. Paul tells us it is the Church.

So, your challenge is somewhat pointless, even though you can look for yourself and find many Early Church fathers that believed Mary was sinless.

 

[concretecamper]

In what way? That's like saying that you still need a band-aid even if you're not hurt.

no, it is like saying I'm gonna save you from skinning your knee so you dont need the bandaid

 

[chilehed]

@concretecamper @Fidelibus @chilehed @thecolorsblend

Anybody can answer the challenge I posted in #37?!!

Off-topic. I won't participate in a hijacking of the thread.

 

[thecolorsblend]

@WanderedHome @chevyontheriver @archer75 @Cis.jd @thecolorsblend @prodromos

Where does the doctrine that St Mary was sinless come from? Did the Nicene / pre-Nicene Fathers claim this? I don't think so.

But I will accept their opinion if you have references.

"The report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, 'The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.' And many said, 'She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain'"
- Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]

The above is a bit elliptical. With the acknowledgement that Sacred Scripture regards the pains of child birth to be a consequence of sin, it is informative that Our Lady was believed to have given birth to Our Lord without the customary birth pains.

Belief in her sinlessness would become more specific in subsequent texts, however.

"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?"
- Ephraim The Syrian, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]

It seems logical to believe this belief in Our Lady's sinlessness predates Ephraim's writings.

"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin"
- Ambrose Of Milan, Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]

Again, this is far more specific about Our Lady being preserved free from the stain of sin.

@concretecamper @Fidelibus @chilehed @thecolorsblend

Anybody can answer the challenge I posted in #37?!!

Hope this helps.

 

[thecolorsblend]

In what way? That's like saying that you still need a band-aid even if you're not hurt.

Her salvation is from Christ. She is not free of sin under her own abilities. She is "saved" from sin by the same Savior as everybody else. However, the method of being "saved" is unique in all of history. Jude 1:24-25 outright states that God possesses the ability to prevent people from sinning and can use it. So in Our Lady's case, the salvation that comes from Our Lord was applied to her at her conception. Her salvation is the same source as for you and me. But she received/receives it in a different way. The point which many Protestants have trouble wrapping their heads around seems to be that Our Lord's sacrifice is eternal, affecting the past, the present and the future. It's four-dimensional. For that reason, Our Lady could be preemptively "saved" from sin when she was conceived because Our Lord's sacrifice is not bound to a single moment in time.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

She went ahead of the perfect timing of God, and did not listen to Jesus, presuming to know better than God.

John 2:1-5
On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” Jesus said to her, 'Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.' His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.

CORRECT! If there is any scripture describing a sinful act by Mary, this is the only one. She was privileged with divine information and assumed it could be used for a purpose not sanctioned by her Son. Though He did it anyway, it is clear He was not pleased. Be blessed.

 

[Albion]

But even Catholics do not see her as any kind of goddess or 4th person of the Trinity.

How do you see the well-publicized fact of over a million Roman Catholic clergy and laypersons signing a petition to the Vatican asking for Mary to be accorded the title and identify of co-redeemer (or redemptrix) of mankind?

 

[WanderedHome]

Heart to heart moment:

As an Orthodox Christian, I need to remember that the only person's sin I need to be concerned about is my own. If we are tempted to judge our brother, sister, or mother we should quickly shut our mouth and pray "Lord have mercy on me, sinner." When I stand before God on Judgment Day, He will only confront my own sin. He will not ask me about whether I believe Mary sinned or what I think about the sins of any other saints or anyone facing Hell. It would be unthinkable to even bring it up! St. Paul instructs us in Philippians to consider ourselves as the worst of sinners and everyone else as better than ourselves.

While both Catholic and Orthodox both highly esteem Mary for her willingness to allow herself to be used by God in this way, there is a difference between our understandings. The Orthodox never dogmatized a view on the Theotokos (Mary), but much of our belief comes from Tradition. The reason the Catholics defined this as dogma and introduced "Immaculate Conception" is because the problem created by Original Sin. The Eastern Orthodox do not accept O.S. as explained in the West, so it never created a problem for our understanding of the Theotokos.

Therefore, there is not a unanimous opinion in the Orthodox East on whether Mary sinned, which is why I have tried to avoid making any direct statements about that. I have only tried to challenge any absolute claims that she did sin.

What I am seeing rather is a huge misunderstanding from the Western Christians here on what exactly sin is, what does it mean to be saved, and what is needed for someone to be a savior. This is the more important issue. I have already provided explanations in previous pages of this thread, so if anyone wants to ask about that, I am willing to continue the discussion.

 

[concretecamper]

CORRECT! If there is any scripture describing a sinful act by Mary, this is the only one. She was privileged with divine information and assumed it could be used for a purpose not sanctioned by her Son. Though He did it anyway, it is clear He was not pleased. Be blessed.

Hmmm, who to beleive. Should I believe this interpretation or that of Fulton Sheen? No question, Fulton Sheen it is!!

"There is a striking parallel between His Father’s bidding Him to His public death and His mother’s bidding Him to His public life. Obedience triumphed in both cases; at Cana, the water was changed into wine; at Calvary, the wine was changed into blood. He was telling His mother that she was virtually pronouncing a sentence of death over Him. Few are the mothers who send their sons to battlefields; but here was one who was actually hastening the hour of her Son’s mortal conflict with the forces of evil. If He agreed to her request, He would be beginning His hour of death and glorification. To the Cross He would go with double commission, one from His Father in heaven, the other from His mother on earth."

 

[WanderedHome]

How do you see the well-publicized fact of over a million Roman Catholic clergy and laypersons signing a petition to the Vatican asking for Mary to be accorded the title and identify of co-redeemer (or redemptrix) of mankind?

I wasn't aware of that. I suppose if I tried to understand that from an Orthodox perspective, I might say that "co-redeemer" doesn't mean Redeemer in the fullest sense of the word, as Christ is Redeemer, but that our salvtion is a cooperation between God and Man. Mary cannot save us in that sense, but through accepting herself to be used as the means of the Incarnation, she is participating in the salvation of the human race... only by the grace of God, of course. Only Jesus' Body and Blood is enough to cover our sins. We participate in the salvation of others when we witness to them the truth of the Gospel and interceed (pray) for their salvation.

 

[Fidelibus]

Why would you ask them such an insulting question when they are speaking the truth and just stating a fact?

First off, as I stated, I never meant for the question to be disrespectful or insulting. If I came off that way, I apologize immensely. I asked the question for reason of discussion, nothing more. It is a simple yes or no, and if they are as you said, "speaking the truth and just stating a fact," I don't see the problem of answering the question for further discussion. So if I understand correctly, you agree with ByTheSpirit that what it say's in Rom. 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory if God" and where BTS said "that ALL means all, not 99% otherwise that would be most have sinned"? If this is so, is it your belief when this passage say's "all" that "all" is an absolute? If so, and if you would like to discuss this further, would you be willing to answer the simple yes or no question I asked BTS regarding seeking God?

If you or BTS do decide to answer, I may not be able to get back to you for a couple of days. I am going camping and fishing, and may not have service, but will get back to you upon my return. Please belive me, I am not trying to be insulting. I ask with upmost intentions.


Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Albion]

Thanks for your reply, WH.

I wasn't aware of that. I suppose if I tried to understand that from an Orthodox perspective, I might say that "co-redeemer" doesn't mean Redeemer in the fullest sense of the word, as Christ is Redeemer, but that our salvtion is a cooperation between God and Man.

"Co" means "joint."

For example,
Definition of co-owner
: a person who owns something along with one or more others

(merriam-webster.com)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hmmm, who to beleive. Should I believe this interpretation or that of Fulton Sheen? No question, Fulton Sheen it is!!

"There is a striking parallel between His Father’s bidding Him to His public death and His mother’s bidding Him to His public life. Obedience triumphed in both cases; at Cana, the water was changed into wine; at Calvary, the wine was changed into blood. He was telling His mother that she was virtually pronouncing a sentence of death over Him. Few are the mothers who send their sons to battlefields; but here was one who was actually hastening the hour of her Son’s mortal conflict with the forces of evil. If He agreed to her request, He would be beginning His hour of death and glorification. To the Cross He would go with double commission, one from His Father in heaven, the other from His mother on earth."

Yikes! This is reading way too much into it. Be blessed.

 

[WanderedHome]

Hmmm, who to beleive. Should I believe this interpretation or that of Fulton Sheen? No question, Fulton Sheen it is!!

"There is a striking parallel between His Father’s bidding Him to His public death and His mother’s bidding Him to His public life. Obedience triumphed in both cases; at Cana, the water was changed into wine; at Calvary, the wine was changed into blood. He was telling His mother that she was virtually pronouncing a sentence of death over Him. Few are the mothers who send their sons to battlefields; but here was one who was actually hastening the hour of her Son’s mortal conflict with the forces of evil. If He agreed to her request, He would be beginning His hour of death and glorification. To the Cross He would go with double commission, one from His Father in heaven, the other from His mother on earth."

Yes. Good explanation! There is another tone of voice which is a possible understanding of this verse, "Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.'" It could have been more of a joking/sarcastic tone, like saying "Woman, take it easy on me, my time is coming soon enough! (wink, wink)"

 

[StillGods]

Hmmm, who to beleive. Should I believe this interpretation or that of Fulton Sheen? No question, Fulton Sheen it is!!

"There is a striking parallel between His Father’s bidding Him to His public death and His mother’s bidding Him to His public life. Obedience triumphed in both cases; at Cana, the water was changed into wine; at Calvary, the wine was changed into blood. He was telling His mother that she was virtually pronouncing a sentence of death over Him. Few are the mothers who send their sons to battlefields; but here was one who was actually hastening the hour of her Son’s mortal conflict with the forces of evil. If He agreed to her request, He would be beginning His hour of death and glorification. To the Cross He would go with double commission, one from His Father in heaven, the other from His mother on earth."

it wasnt his time.
she ignored that
in doing so went against God.
it was sin.

imagine if she had waited for Gods timing. we will never know, much like any act of disobedience on our part God uses it for His purposes but like us Mary ignored God, sad but true. perhaps she was an overbearing mother, sounds like its possible from these verses. If she was a mother then she sinned...no mother is perfect