What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

[coffee4u]

Okay. Do you not agree then, as a non-Catholic, it would behoove you to read what the Catholic Church actually teaches of any certain belief in the Catechism of the Catholic Church before commenting on it? I mean, surely you wouldn't want to put any incorrect posts of what the Church actually teaches, right?

Also, please take note how the Catechism is labeled as "the Catechism of the Catholic Church," not the The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church. You can also read the Catechism online. Just be sure you get the official version. The Vatican has an online version I go to often.





Have a Blessed Day!

It would probably be useful, but wasn't needed for the original post I made to this thread.
While I certainly don't know all of the RC doctrine I know that I disagree with the premise of this thread, that Mary -or any other person (except Jesus seeing as he was also God) being without sin. Whether or not Roman is added to it, it is the same church.

 

[Fidelibus]

It would probably be useful, but wasn't needed for the original post I made to this thread.

That is certainly your choice.

While I certainly don't know all of the RC doctrine I know that I disagree with the premise of this thread, that Mary -or any other person (except Jesus seeing as he was also God) being without sin.

Again, if this is your belief, I must refer back to Rom. 3:11 where it says that "no one" seeks for God. So, if you believe that "all" in Rom 3:23 is an absolute, then you must believe that "no one" in Rom 3:11 must also be an absolute. So, every believer who says Rom 3:23 means everyone, without exception, (excluding Jesus) has sinned, cannot be seeking God in his or her life because Rom 3:11, according to their methodology of interpreting Scripture, says that absolutely "no one" is seeking God.

Whether or not Roman is added to it, it is the same church.

From Catholicanswers.com:

"It is not possible to give an exact year when the Catholic Church began to be called the “Roman Catholic Church,” but it is possible to approximate it. The term originates as an insult created by Anglicans who wished to refer to themselves as Catholic. They thus coined the term “Roman Catholic” to distinguish those in union with Rome from themselves and to create a sense in which they could refer to themselves as Catholics (by attempting to deprive actual Catholics to the right to the term).
Different variants of the “Roman” insult appeared at different times. The earliest form was the noun “Romanist” (one belonging to the Catholic Church), which appeared in England about 1515-1525. The next to develop was the adjective “Romish” (similar to something done or believed in the Catholic Church), which appeared around 1525-1535. Next came the noun “Roman Catholic” (one belonging to the Catholic Church), which was coined around 1595-1605. Shortly thereafter came the verb “to Romanize” (to make someone a Catholic or to become a Catholic), which appeared around 1600-10. Between 1665 and 1675 we got the noun “Romanism” (the system of Catholic beliefs and practices), and finally we got a latecomer term about 1815-1825, the noun “Roman Catholicism,” a synonym for the earlier “Romanism.”
A similar complex of insults arose around “pope.” About 1515-25 the Anglicans coined the term “papist” and later its derivative “papism.” A quick follow-up, in 1520-1530, was the adjective “popish.” Next came “popery” (1525-1535), then “papistry” (1540-1550), with its later derivatives, “papistical” and “papistic.” (Source: Random House Webster’s College Dictionary, 1995 ed.)

This complex of insults is revealing as it shows the depths of animosity English Protestants had toward the Church. No other religious body (perhaps no other group at all, even national or racial) has such a complex of insults against it woven into the English language as does the Catholic Church. Even today many Protestants who have no idea what the origin of the term is cannot bring themselves to say “Catholic” without qualifying it or replacing it with an insult."

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[coffee4u]

That is certainly your choice.



Again, if this is your belief, I must refer back to Rom. 3:11 where it says that "no one" seeks for God. So, if you believe that "all" in Rom 3:23 is an absolute, then you must believe that "no one" in Rom 3:11 must also be an absolute. So, every believer who says Rom 3:23 means everyone, without exception, (excluding Jesus) has sinned, cannot be seeking God in his or her life because Rom 3:11, according to their methodology of interpreting Scripture, says that absolutely "no one" is seeking God.

And I already answered that point back in my first reply to you. The natural man, dead in his sins, does not seek God.
Not until God calls him and he hears and responds

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

But he may close himself off and harden his heart instead.
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

From Catholicanswers.com:

"It is not possible to give an exact year when the Catholic Church began to be called the “Roman Catholic Church,” but it is possible to approximate it. The term originates as an insult created by Anglicans who wished to refer to themselves as Catholic. They thus coined the term “Roman Catholic” to distinguish those in union with Rome from themselves and to create a sense in which they could refer to themselves as Catholics (by attempting to deprive actual Catholics to the right to the term).
Different variants of the “Roman” insult appeared at different times. The earliest form was the noun “Romanist” (one belonging to the Catholic Church), which appeared in England about 1515-1525. The next to develop was the adjective “Romish” (similar to something done or believed in the Catholic Church), which appeared around 1525-1535. Next came the noun “Roman Catholic” (one belonging to the Catholic Church), which was coined around 1595-1605. Shortly thereafter came the verb “to Romanize” (to make someone a Catholic or to become a Catholic), which appeared around 1600-10. Between 1665 and 1675 we got the noun “Romanism” (the system of Catholic beliefs and practices), and finally we got a latecomer term about 1815-1825, the noun “Roman Catholicism,” a synonym for the earlier “Romanism.”
A similar complex of insults arose around “pope.” About 1515-25 the Anglicans coined the term “papist” and later its derivative “papism.” A quick follow-up, in 1520-1530, was the adjective “popish.” Next came “popery” (1525-1535), then “papistry” (1540-1550), with its later derivatives, “papistical” and “papistic.” (Source: Random House Webster’s College Dictionary, 1995 ed.)

This complex of insults is revealing as it shows the depths of animosity English Protestants had toward the Church. No other religious body (perhaps no other group at all, even national or racial) has such a complex of insults against it woven into the English language as does the Catholic Church. Even today many Protestants who have no idea what the origin of the term is cannot bring themselves to say “Catholic” without qualifying it or replacing it with an insult."

Have a Blessed Day!

So I take it from this that you don't like to be called a 'Roman catholic'
I didn't mean it as an insult, it's just a label. As is the names of protestant denominations.
I care about doctrine not labels.

 

[Fidelibus]

And I already answered that point back in my first reply to you. The natural man, dead in his sins, does not seek God.

Not until God calls him and he hears and responds

No dis-respect coffee4u, but these words of yours are not found in Romans 3:11. What you answered with is your fallible, personal interpretation and/or opinion of what "you" believe this passage to mean..... which could be wrong....Correct?

Hebrews 11:6- And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
But he may close himself off and harden his heart instead.

Faith is a precious gift but it is a gift that can be lost or rejected. The Catechism of the Catholic Church # 162 warns: Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith." To live, grow, and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must get the Lord to increase our faith; it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

It is not God's desire that any should perish; He has made the invitation for us to come to salvation. He has sent His Son as our Bridegroom, and He has given us all we need through the Sacraments to be dressed in the wedding garment of divine grace to enter into an intimate relationship with Christ the Bridegroom. God invites everyone, but He also asks us to make a radical choice "we must be willing to give up everything for the sake of the kingdom. The choice to come is ours: This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3).

So I take it from this that you don't like to be called a 'Roman catholic'

No... it really doesn't bother me. I just posted the history of the term to show you it's origin and the meaning behind it.

I didn't mean it as an insult, it's just a label.

No offense taken. The official name of our church is “Catholic Church”. But the Church has 23 different rites. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines a rite as “The diverse liturgical traditions in which the one catholic and apostolic faith has come to be expressed and celebrated in various cultures and lands.” As part of this one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Catholic Church there are twenty-three individual rites which are equally valid with different liturgical traditions with different forms of liturgy, often based on cultural and language differences, but all in union with the Bishop of Rome.

Those of us in the West, are mostly members of the Latin or Roman Rite, which is named the Roman Catholic Church. There are others rites with unique names within the Catholic Church: the Maronite Catholic Church , the Greek Catholic Church, the Melkite Catholic Church, etc. Roman Catholic Church is not the name of the whole Church, only the name of the Roman rite of the Catholic Church. So the official name of our universal Church is “Catholic Church”. Roman Catholic Church is the Roman rite within the larger Catholic Church. But all the various liturgical rites are one and in union with Rome.

Here is the list of rites that are integral parts of the one, Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church:

Latin Church with Latin liturgical traditions
Eastern Catholic Churches with particular liturgical traditions:
Alexandrian liturgical tradition:
Coptic Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church
Eritrean Catholic Church
Antiochian liturgical tradition:
Maronite Church
Syrian Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
Armenian liturgical tradition:
Armenian Catholic Church
Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
Chaldean Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
Byzantine liturgical tradition:
Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church
Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
Byzantine Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro
Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
Melkite Greek Catholic Church
Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic
Russian Greek Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Slovak Greek Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

Off to Mass! Have a Blessed day!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

No dis-respect coffee4u, but these words of yours are not found in Romans 3:11. What you answered with is your fallible, personal interpretation and/or opinion of what "you" believe this passage to mean..... which could be wrong....Correct?



Faith is a precious gift but it is a gift that can be lost or rejected. The Catechism of the Catholic Church # 162 warns: Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith." To live, grow, and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must get the Lord to increase our faith; it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.



It is not God's desire that any should perish; He has made the invitation for us to come to salvation. He has sent His Son as our Bridegroom, and He has given us all we need through the Sacraments to be dressed in the wedding garment of divine grace to enter into an intimate relationship with Christ the Bridegroom. God invites everyone, but He also asks us to make a radical choice "we must be willing to give up everything for the sake of the kingdom. The choice to come is ours: This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3).



No... it really doesn't bother me. I just posted the history of the term to show you it's origin and the meaning behind it.



No offense taken. The official name of our church is “Catholic Church”. But the Church has 23 different rites. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines a rite as “The diverse liturgical traditions in which the one catholic and apostolic faith has come to be expressed and celebrated in various cultures and lands.” As part of this one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Catholic Church there are twenty-three individual rites which are equally valid with different liturgical traditions with different forms of liturgy, often based on cultural and language differences, but all in union with the Bishop of Rome.

Those of us in the West, are mostly members of the Latin or Roman Rite, which is named the Roman Catholic Church. There are others rites with unique names within the Catholic Church: the Maronite Catholic Church , the Greek Catholic Church, the Melkite Catholic Church, etc. Roman Catholic Church is not the name of the whole Church, only the name of the Roman rite of the Catholic Church. So the official name of our universal Church is “Catholic Church”. Roman Catholic Church is the Roman rite within the larger Catholic Church. But all the various liturgical rites are one and in union with Rome.

Here is the list of rites that are integral parts of the one, Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church:

Latin Church with Latin liturgical traditions
Eastern Catholic Churches with particular liturgical traditions:
Alexandrian liturgical tradition:
Coptic Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church
Eritrean Catholic Church
Antiochian liturgical tradition:
Maronite Church
Syrian Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
Armenian liturgical tradition:
Armenian Catholic Church
Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
Chaldean Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
Byzantine liturgical tradition:
Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church
Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
Byzantine Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro
Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
Melkite Greek Catholic Church
Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic
Russian Greek Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Slovak Greek Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

Off to Mass! Have a Blessed day!

Are those denominations? According to the source of 30,000 protestant denominations they would be part of the over 200 Catholic denominations. I am just having a little fun with you friend. I really need to iv coffee.

 

[Fidelibus]

Are those denominations?

Nope.... Rites.

According to the source of 30,000 protestant denominations they would be part of the over 200 Catholic denominations.

200 Catholic denominations in full communion with the Bishop of Rome? No. However, there are some churches which have indeed the 'chutzpah' to claim for themselves the name "Catholic", when they are "not" in full communion with the Pope. These "self proclaimed" Catholic churches gleefully profess that they're not subject to the Pope. They have said, "Thanks, but no thanks, we're fine on our own without a pope and it's perfectly acceptable to do that and still be Catholic!" (rolling eyes here)

The decent thing for these churches to do would be to change their name to: Episcopalian, Anglican, or some other Protestant Christian denomination which has its roots in Catholicism, and then divorced itself from the Root, the One Holy Catholic Church!

These so-called "Catholic" churches have taken all the hard teachings of Christ, re-conformed them to something more tolerable, something that conforms with their own personal views like....... "I like it when everyone gets to go to communion, even if you're not in communion with my church!" Or... "I don't like it when women can't be priests!" Or.... "God wouldn't do this or do that", Or say something along the lines of...."it's just coincidence that I don't like it when we have to do this or do that"

There is a saying from an American Protestant pastor and theologian that goes:.... "If your god never disagrees with you, you may be worshipping an idealized version of yourself."

I am just having a little fun with you friend.

Lol!.......

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

He who laughs last is Blessed.