What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

[Daniel Marsh]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

 

[Jord Simcha]

The "who is my mother?" passage implies that she didn't do the will of God perfectly.

(Matthew 12:47-50)

 

[solid_core]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

Mary: "My spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour"
Luke 1:47

 

[Lost4words]

The "who is my mother?" passage implies that she didn't do the will of God perfectly.

(Matthew 12:47-50)

Totally wrong.

 

[WanderedHome]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

Why are you determined to prove someone is a sinner? Seems like an odd thing to inquire about.

 

[solid_core]

Why are you determined to prove someone is a sinner? Seems like an odd thing to inquire about.

Probably beause of people like you, eastern orthodox, catholics and similar, who are trying to make Mary to be somebody supernatural.

That leads to reactions like "is there something in the Bible that disproves that?".

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Totally wrong.

Why is the interpretation wrong? thanks, daniel

Matthew 12:47-50
J.B. Phillips New Testament
Jesus and his relations
46-50 While he was still talking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers happened to be standing outside wanting to speak to him. Somebody said to him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are outside wanting to speak to you.” But Jesus replied to the one who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”; then with a gesture of his hand towards his disciples he went on, “There are my mother and brothers! For whoever does the will of my Heavenly Father is brother and sister and mother to me.”

Mark 3:31-35
J.B. Phillips New Testament
The new relationships in the kingdom
31-32 Then his mother and his brothers arrived. They stood outside the house and sent a message asking him to come out to them. There was a crowd sitting round him when the message was brought telling him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 Jesus replied, “And who are really my mother and my brothers?”

34 And he looked round at the faces of those sitting in a circle about him.

35 “Look!” he said, “my mother and my brothers are here. Anyone who does the will of God is brother and sister and mother to me.”

Luke 8:19-21
J.B. Phillips New Testament
19-20 Then his mother and his brothers arrived to see him, but could not get near him because of the crowd. So a message was passed to him, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting to see you.”

21 To which he replied, “My mother and my brothers? That means those who listen to God’s message and obey it.”

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Why are you determined to prove someone is a sinner? Seems like an odd thing to inquire about.

I understand that Catholic Apologetics claims she was not a sinner.

Romans says, all have sinned. We know Jesus to be an exception.

I have been taught at church that Mary was in fact a sinner.

I am simply wanting to hear both sides as a intelligent discussion.

 

[WanderedHome]

The "who is my mother?" passage implies that she didn't do the will of God perfectly.

(Matthew 12:47-50)

This passage in context:

Matthew 12- "While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. 48 But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Also a relative statement in Luke 11:27-28, "As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Jesus' words were not meant to negate his mother or humiliate her in front of the crowds, for that would be breaking the Commandment to "honor your father and mother." He was not saying, "forget them, I am too big of a star now and have no time for my family." His point was that anyone who does the will of the Father is also considered His mother, brother, and sister and is considered blessed. Even Mary becomes our mother in the faith, so show your mother a little love!

More...
Matthew 19:29, "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life."

I Timothy 5:1-2, "Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, in all purity."

 

[WanderedHome]

I understand that Catholic Apologetics claims she was not a sinner.

Romans says, all have sinned. We know Jesus to be an exception.

I have been taught at church that Mary was in fact a sinner.

I am simply wanting to hear both sides as a intelligent discussion.

I cannot really answer for the Roman Catholics... the Orthodox do not accept the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos (Mary) as that was dogmatized by the Catholics after the Great Schism. However, we still hold her in very high regard... like second to Jesus Christ Himself. While she lived a very holy life in purity, since God had placed a hedge of protection around her from birth, she was born a normal human being in need of the Savior, just like all of us.

 

[WanderedHome]

Probably beause of people like you, eastern orthodox, catholics and similar, who are trying to make Mary to be somebody supernatural.

That leads to reactions like "is there something in the Bible that disproves that?".

With all due respect, you are misinformed by your Protestant pastors... but I can't blame them, they were probably misinformed too. The problem goes way back. The early Reformers, like Luther and Calvin, still kept their Catholic/Orthodox respect for Mary, but as denominations began splintering, they lost connection to those who came before them... But even Catholics do not see her as any kind of goddess or 4th person of the Trinity.

 

[Andrewn]

However, we still hold her in very high regard... like second to Jesus Christ Himself. While she lived a very holy life in purity, since God had placed a hedge of protection around her from birth, she was born a normal human being in need of the Savior, just like all of us.

Was the Virgin Mary sinless _or_ in need of the Savior?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

The only HUMAN exception - period. OF COURSE MARY WAS A SINNER!!! She was human. case closed.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The only HUMAN exception - period. OF COURSE MARY WAS A SINNER!!! She was human. case closed.

SInce she was found later in the company of the apostles, there's an excellent likelihood that She DID become a Born Again Christian after the Crucifixion.

 

[WanderedHome]

Was the Virgin Mary sinless _or_ in need of the Savior?

In the Orthodox view, Jesus came to save us from sin, yes- that is the general understanding- but it wasn't just our own personal sins we've committed that He saves us from, but also to save us from the consequences of sin (which is death). He saves us from other's sins against us- AND- this is important- to NOT ONLY restore us to the grace we had as humans in the pre-fall state, but to take us beyond by eternally making us into the image of the infinite God. ALL of this is part of salvation. It is not simply just a legal transaction, but is the journey of repentance and being re-made in His image. God is infinite, so our growth in Him will never end.... So the point is, even if someone didn't commit any personal sins, they still need a savior. I am not saying one way or the other whether Mary was sinless (the Orthodox Church has not made declaration about that), but even if she didn't sin, she still needed a savior just like all of us, because she was still going to die.

 

[Jord Simcha]

His point was that anyone who does the will of the Father is also considered His mother, brother, and sister and is considered blessed.

And my point was that in this instance she wasn't included in that group (that does the will of the Father)

Even Mary becomes our mother in the faith, so show your mother a little love!

smh, no

However, we still hold her in very high regard... like second to Jesus Christ Himself.

If anybody deserves that title or honour, 2nd best, then it is John the Baptist, based on Matthew 11:11.

 

[WanderedHome]

And my point was that in this instance she wasn't included in that group (that does the will of the Father)

So... Mary didn't do the will of the Father?? ... So, it wasn't God's will that the Second Person of the Trinity became man through the Virgin birth? What other evidence do you need that she did God's will?

If anybody deserves that title or honour, 2nd best, then it is John the Baptist, based on Matthew 11:11.

Yes, and even the least in the Kingdom of Heaven (New Covenant) is greater than John (greatest of the prophets/Old Covenant).
So, when did the New Covenant start? It began at the Incarnation when God became man... So who is greater? The herald who is announcing the coming King, or 'the one whose womb which held Him whom the universe could not contain?' (from a hymn in our church).

 

[Jord Simcha]

So... Mary didn't do the will of the Father?? ... So, it wasn't God's will that the Second Person of the Trinity became man through the Virgin birth? What other evidence do you need that she did God's will?

That's not all God required of her. Also of course to obey the commandments. And what I'm reading here is that the disciples might have done better in that regard than she did.

Yes, and even the least in the Kingdom of Heaven (New Covenant) is greater than John (greatest of the prophets/Old Covenant).
So, when did the New Covenant start? It began at the Incarnation when God became man... So who is greater? The herald who is announcing the coming King, or the one whose womb which held Him whom the universe could not contain?

I think John, because he in fact got the greatest compliment ever given in human history.

Mary might have been greater than him after pentecost, like the apostles and their followers, and yeah, any born again Christian today, but that's less of a personal achievement but God's work.

 

[WanderedHome]

The "who is my mother?" passage implies that she didn't do the will of God perfectly.

(Matthew 12:47-50)

oh, sorry, I forgot your original comment. But still, "who is my mother" does not imply anything about her sin. All it is saying is anyone who does the will of God (perfectly or imperfectly) is His mother.

 

[WanderedHome]

That's not all God required of her. Also of course to obey the commandments. And what I'm reading here is that the disciples might have done better in that regard than she did.

We seem to be replying at the same time... My previous reply still stands.

I think John, because he in fact got the greatest compliment ever given in human history.
Mary might have been greater than him after pentecost, like the apostles and their followers, and yeah, any born again Christian today, but that's less of a personal achievement but God's work.

Read the Magnificat in Luke 1:46-55 and then tell me whether you think John received the greater blessing. Even John leaped in the womb of Elizabeth at the sound of Mary's voice.
If Mary accepting the bearing of Christ in her womb is not proof enough of her commitment to follow Christ and God's work, I don't know what is.
What about all the Apostles who followed Christ? Did they have to wait until Pentecost too? The thief on the cross who was with Christ that same day in Paradise?