What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

[Daniel Marsh]

And my point was that in this instance she wasn't included in that group (that does the will of the Father)


smh, no


If anybody deserves that title or honour, 2nd best, then it is John the Baptist, based on Matthew 11:11.

Do you call her blessed?

 

[Jord Simcha]

Do you call her blessed?

I hardly ever mention her, but when I do, I just call her by her name. So no, not really.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

oh, sorry, I forgot your original comment. But still, "who is my mother" does not imply anything about her sin. All it is saying is anyone who does the will of God (perfectly or imperfectly) is His mother.

Some texts are not about Mary herself but demonstrates we can have mothers in the faith who are not our physical Mother.

Romans 16:13-15
Shake the hand of Rufus for me—that splendid Christian and greet his mother, who has been a mother to me too. Greetings to Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and their Christian group: also to Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and the Christians who are with them.

Galatians 4:22-27
It is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave and the other by the free woman. The child of the slave was born in the ordinary course of nature, but the child of the free woman was born in accordance with God’s promise. This can be regarded as an allegory. Here are the two agreements represented by the two women: the one from Mount Sinai bearing children into slavery, typified by Hagar (Mount Sinai being in Arabia, the land of the descendants of Ishmael, Hagar’s son), and corresponding to present-day Jerusalem—for the Jews are still, spiritually speaking, “slaves”. But the free woman typifies the heavenly Jerusalem, which is the mother of us all, and is spiritually “free”. It is written: ‘Rejoice, O barren, you who do not bear! Break forth and shout, you who do not travail! For the desolate has many more children than she who has a husband.’

1 Timothy 5:1-2
Don’t reprimand a senior member of your church, appeal to him as a father. Treat the young men as brothers, and the older women as mothers. Treat the younger women as sisters, and no more.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I mean ALL have sinned is really all you need right? ALL means all, not 99% otherwise that would be most have sinned. All is inclusive of everyone, including Mary

 

[Daniel Marsh]

My view is (I'm not saying it's infallible) that the apostles weren't born again until pentecost, so yes they weren't greater than John the Baptist until after that moment.

Who got a greater blessing? I really can't say nor do I really care tbh. Maybe we'll find out in heaven.

John 20:22-23
J.B. Phillips New Testament
22-23 And then he breathed upon them and said, “Receive holy spirit. If you forgive any men’s sins, they are forgiven, and if you hold them unforgiven, they are unforgiven.”

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1 - J.B. Phillips New Testament

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Is that not enough?

I am asking about commited sins of her own texts and the responses to those texts.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

ah. you mean the people whose church didn't come to existence until around the 1400's?

The Eastern Churches existed from the beginnings of Christianity and the the split you refer to was around 1050.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I'm sorry but this is just biblical. If Mary was sinless then she could have just as easily been the one that God put on the cross. Jesus was and is the only sinless person that ever existed period!

Mary was not God, nor the Messiah, thus your argument does not boil water.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

That may simply be an example of synecdoche, just like in Matthew 3:4-6

Now John wore a garment of camel’s hair, and a leather girdle around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.​

Genesis 5:21-24 seems to imply that Enoch did not sin, which would further support "all" being synecdoche.

When Enoch had lived sixty-five years, he became the father of Methu′selah. Enoch walked with God after the birth of Methu′selah three hundred years, and had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.​

syn·ec·do·che
/səˈnekdəkē/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a figure of speech in which a part is made to represent the whole or vice versa, as in Cleveland won by six runs (meaning “Cleveland's baseball team”).

 

[Daniel Marsh]

John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb.
“for he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink, and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.” Luke 1:15 (NCPB)

All believers in OT times and before were born-again. Possibly Mary was born again in the same sense John was and overcame Adam's sin residing in her. As born-again people do every day.

We know at least the Holy Spirit came upon Mary in Luke 1:35. In Acts, the same phrases of Holy Spirit upon means filled with the Spirit.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

@WanderedHome @chevyontheriver @archer75 @Cis.jd @thecolorsblend @prodromos

Where does the doctrine that St Mary was sinless come from? Did the Nicene / pre-Nicene Fathers claim this? I don't think so.

But I will accept their opinion if you have references.

And [the angel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.” (Luke 1:28-30)

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Yup, that text. And Jesus said one time that his parents and siblings were not his family but those who do the will of God are. You would think that if his mother was sinless he would have included her as part of his family that "does the will of God."

His mother was a sinner like the rest of us. She might have committed less sins than most humans

When Paul said No one, he meant no human born of a sin nature. Christ was born from the Holy Spirit so he had no sin nature so he didn't count.

In the text, Jesus was speaking spiritually and did not deny that Mary was his physical Mother.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I mean ALL have sinned is really all you need right? ALL means all, not 99% otherwise that would be most have sinned. All is inclusive of everyone, including Mary

I think it was Augustine who says, origianal sin was passed down from the male.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Time to make breakfast for everyone, bye for now

 

[concretecamper]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

there isnt an exception to "all" unless "all" doesnt mean what you think it means.

 

[Fidelibus]

I mean ALL have sinned is really all you need right? ALL means all, not 99% otherwise that would be most have sinned. All is inclusive of everyone, including Mary

Quite a statement BTS. Could I please ask you a question? Not trying to be disrespectful, but are you seeking God in your life? I will explain why I'm asking such a question if or when you respond.

Have a Blessed day!

 

[April_Rose]

No, it wasn't just being sinless that allowed Jesus to save us, it was His being both God and man, because only by being both could Jesus destroy death. Everyone needs salvation from death and corruption, whether they have sinned or not. 1 Corinthians 20-26

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.​

Again I repeat, the Bible says absolutely nothing about your claims so I just cannot believe it.

Mary was not God, nor the Messiah, thus your argument does not boil water.

Yes it does. If Mary was sinless then that would have made her equal to God and that's blasphemous.

 

[April_Rose]

Quite a statement BTS. Could I please ask you a question? Not trying to be disrespectful, but are you seeking God in your life? I will explain why I'm asking such a question if or when you respond.

Have a Blessed day!

Why would you ask them such an insulting question when they are speaking the truth and just stating a fact?

 

[chilehed]

What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

There are no such texts. That's a conclusion that people have arrived at that isn't really supported by the texts themselves.

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text.

The only way those New Testament passages apply is if she's a fool and an evildoer. They are quotes of Psalm 14; if you carefully study that psalm you'll see that it doesn't at all indicate that "every person without exception has sinned", and indeed there is no passage of scripture that says or implies anything of the sort.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I think it was Augustine who says, origianal sin was passed down from the male.

Said at a time when people thought that men contributed the "seed," and women were merely incubators. I suspect that Augustine's views might be different had he known that the contribution was fifty-fifty. Nevertheless, Augustine was, himself, a sinner prone to error, nor was he uniquely qualified to opine on this point.