What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

[Hmm]

You have read the previous 450 or so posts, right?

Yes but I still wasn't clear which is why I asked the question The only reference I came across in the thread was that because Mary was "full of grace" there was no room left in her for sin and I wondered if there were any others. I haven't studied it and so I'm not saying that that's not the right interpretation but I personally don't find it convincing on the face of it. I could say that someone was "full of confidence" going into a job interview but by that I'm not saying that there's no room for any anxiety at all, let alone saying that she's never lacked confidence in her whole life and never will in her whole future life. It's just a figure of speech and I just mean that she's feeling very confident about this particular interview.

 

[Albion]

Death.

You think that's what she meant, huh? She was thinking of being assumed bodily into heaven in accord with the legend that later grew up around her memory? Riiiiiiiight.

 

[Albion]

Because the real important thing is that it is not unbiblical that there is a destination (or state) prior to heaven and hell.

I think we already did agree that the reality of some sort of intermediate state in the afterlife was not part of this debate. Rather, it's whether or not there is a Purgatory--a particular state that exists to accomplish something in particular in a particular way (as defined by the Roman Catholic Church).

The importance is that a moment prior to this for the soul has been taught in scripture and by tradition, it's not invented as protestants claim.

But Purgatory was.

 

[Fidelibus]

answered already

Humm...I find this interesting, so when you accused another poster of "committing a well know word study fallacy" in theirs and their churches teaching and or meaning of this Scripture passage, (Luke 1:46-55) your authority to do so is the writings and opinions of fallible men who's writings and opinions are subject to error? Got it!

And to ask once again, in the same post, 'you' again accused the same poster of "Reading a meaning into the text that is not there." I re-read your post # 414, and no where in it did I see where you personally addressed the inquiry I put forth to you in post #410. So again I ask, when you accused the poster of reading something into the Scripture passage that simply is not there, does that mean what "YOU" read into it to mean as absolute and without error?



Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Neostarwcc]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

Not 100% stated in the Bible but we can use common sense. Jesus Christ was the only completely sinless person to ever walk the earth and ever will be and he could only pull it off because he was God in the flesh and wasn't born with a sin nature. Mary had no special birth nor divine powers of her own if she did why would God have needed to come to earth to die for her/us? Think about it. If Mary was sinless her son wouldn't have needed to die for her she would have gone to heaven on her own anyway.


Of course Mary was as much of a sinner as you and I. She was special, yes. But, a sinner.

Thats like saying Augustus was sinless because he was one of the greatest theologians and saints to walk the planet. Or Joan of Arc or.... anyone really.

 

[Hmm]

Thats like saying Augustus was sinless because he was one of the greatest theologians and saints to walk the planet. Or Joan of Arc or.... anyone really.

I think that's right. The Bible is not there to teach us about Paul, Moses, Shadrach, Meshach or Abednego. Or Mary I would say. It's there to teach us about Jesus because It is He alone who is the perfect image of God and who died for our sins and is our saviour. We are invited into a relationship with God, not with any of the Bible characters however good, obedient and important to the story they may have been.

 

[Fidelibus]

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

Are you interpreting the word "all" here in Romans 3:23 as an absolute, meaning literally and absolutely 'all'........ as in everyone who has ever lived or ever will live, without exception?


Have a Blessed Day!

 

[chevyontheriver]

Yes but I still wasn't clear which is why I asked the question The only reference I came across in the thread was that because Mary was "full of grace" there was no room left in her for sin and I wondered if there were any others. I haven't studied it and so I'm not saying that that's not the right interpretation but I personally don't find it convincing on the face of it. I could say that someone was "full of confidence" going into a job interview but by that I'm not saying that there's no room for any anxiety at all, let alone saying that she's never lacked confidence in her whole life and never will in her whole future life. It's just a figure of speech and I just mean that she's feeling very confident about this particular interview.

To be full of something leaves no room for something else. One might be (relatively) full of confidence as a cover for an actual anxiety, but I think this differs. The root of it is to understand the word 'kecharitomene' as having been given an overwhelming grace that resides permanently. And to realize that the angel Gabriel used that word of Mary AS A TITLE. She was, to Gabriel, the kecharitomene. I think it is way more than a figure of speech.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Not 100% stated in the Bible but we can use common sense. Jesus Christ was the only completely sinless person to ever walk the earth and ever will be and he could only pull it off because he was God in the flesh and wasn't born with a sin nature.

Did Adam ever walk the earth? Eve? Neither was born with a 'sin nature'. Both were sinless at least for a while.

Mary had no special birth nor divine powers of her own if she did why would God have needed to come to earth to die for her/us? Think about it. If Mary was sinless her son wouldn't have needed to die for her she would have gone to heaven on her own anyway.

That's a mangling of the Catholic position. Mary would not have gone to heaven on her own because on her own she would have fallen and sinned and deserved hell. She was saved from that, through no merit of her own, so that she didn't fall and didn't sin. Her Son needed to die for her too. And Catholics know that. Every priest, bishop, cardinal, and pope, along with a chunk of the laity recite Luke 1 every day. So they know Mary had and needed a savior. It's not a surprise to us, as you may think.

Of course Mary was as much of a sinner as you and I. She was special, yes. But, a sinner.

For the most part you have presumed your conclusion. Of the many ways Mary could have been saved by Jesus you presume the one way that requires her to be a sinner while ignoring that she could have been saved from ever sinning.

Thats like saying Augustus was sinless because he was one of the greatest theologians and saints to walk the planet. Or Joan of Arc or.... anyone really.

It's Augustine. Augustus was a Roman Emperor. And nobody pretends Augustine was sinless. In fact his sinful life is well documented.

 

[Hmm]

The root of it is to understand the word 'kecharitomene' as having been given an overwhelming grace that resides permanently. And to realize that the angel Gabriel used that word of Mary AS A TITLE. She was, to Gabriel, the kecharitomene. I think it is way more than a figure of speech.

Okay but rather than getting into a
discussion about 'kecharitomene', for which I'm not qualified anyway, do you not think, that something as important as you obviously think it is would have been made an awfully lot clearer in scripture so that it didn't hinge on subtle linguistic analysis?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Yes but I still wasn't clear which is why I asked the question The only reference I came across in the thread was that because Mary was "full of grace" there was no room left in her for sin and I wondered if there were any others. I haven't studied it and so I'm not saying that that's not the right interpretation but I personally don't find it convincing on the face of it. I could say that someone was "full of confidence" going into a job interview but by that I'm not saying that there's no room for any anxiety at all, let alone saying that she's never lacked confidence in her whole life and never will in her whole future life. It's just a figure of speech and I just mean that she's feeling very confident about this particular interview.

Full of Grace from what?

Ephesians 1:6
Easy-to-Read Version

6 And this brings praise to God because of his wonderful grace. God gave that grace to us freely. He gave us that grace in Christ, the one he loves.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Humm...I find this interesting, so when you accused another poster of "committing a well know word study fallacy" in theirs and their churches teaching and or meaning of this Scripture passage, (Luke 1:46-55) your authority to do so is the writings and opinions of fallible men who's writings and opinions are subject to error? Got it!

And to ask once again, in the same post, 'you' again accused the same poster of "Reading a meaning into the text that is not there." I re-read your post # 414, and no where in it did I see where you personally addressed the inquiry I put forth to you in post #410. So again I ask, when you accused the poster of reading something into the Scripture passage that simply is not there, does that mean what "YOU" read into it to mean as absolute and without error?



Have a Blessed Day!

Thanks Brother, I gave a definition of the error committed and an example of JW's reading the meaning of one from John 17 into John 10:30. What else did you want?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Are you interpreting the word "all" here in Romans 3:23 as an absolute, meaning literally and absolutely 'all'........ as in everyone who has ever lived or ever will live, without exception?


Have a Blessed Day!

I think someone wrote that Jesus was the only exception. Luke 1:25

 

[Daniel Marsh]

To be full of something leaves no room for something else. One might be (relatively) full of confidence as a cover for an actual anxiety, but I think this differs. The root of it is to understand the word 'kecharitomene' as having been given an overwhelming grace that resides permanently. And to realize that the angel Gabriel used that word of Mary AS A TITLE. She was, to Gabriel, the kecharitomene. I think it is way more than a figure of speech.

Verse 28
Highly favoured (κεχαριτωμενη — kecharitōmenē). Perfect passive participle of χαριτοω — charitoō and means endowed with grace (χαρις — charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians 1:6, non ut mater gratiae, sed ut filia gratiae (Bengel). The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‹full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‹full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer). The oldest MSS. do not have “Blessed art thou among women” here, but in Luke 1:42.

Luke 1 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Verse 28

And the angel came in unto her,.... Into her house, and into the room where she was:

and said, hail; all health, happiness, and prosperity attend thee; Matthew 28:9.

thou art highly favoured; or graciously accepted, or hast obtained grace; not referring to electing, redeeming; justifying, pardoning, adopting, and sanctifying grace, which she had in common with other saints; but to that special and particular favour, in being chosen and singled out from all other women, to be the mother of the Messiah:

the Lord is with thee; so the angel to Gideon, Judges 6:12 or "be with thee", an usual form of salutation among the Jews; 2:4.

thou art blessed among women; and will be pronounced so by other women, as she was by Elisabeth, Luke 1:42 and by another woman, Luke 11:27.

Luke 1 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition on the Whole Bible

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Okay but rather than getting into a
discussion about 'kecharitomene', for which I'm not qualified anyway, do you not think, that something as important as you obviously think it is would have been made an awfully lot clearer in scripture so that it didn't hinge on subtle linguistic analysis?

Context Matters, yes brother!!!

 

[coffee4u]

You have read the previous 450 or so posts, right?

And here is what it means. There is one savior, but what we are saved from differs. Some are saved after having fallen. Mary was saved from falling. That is how she can be kecharitomene, the one given an ovewhelming grace that was never deserved. It means Mary was really and actually saved, saved from falling, but not needing to be saved after falling because she never fell..

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

This includes every single human ever born since Cain and includes Mary. if she didn't sin then you are claiming that she wasn't of human decent and wasn't human.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Okay but rather than getting into a
discussion about 'kecharitomene', for which I'm not qualified anyway, do you not think, that something as important as you obviously think it is would have been made an awfully lot clearer in scripture so that it didn't hinge on subtle linguistic analysis?

First, Koine Greek was commonly understood over most of the Roman Empire by all sorts of plain old and young people. It's not like it is arcane stuff. It's easy enough. In fact what they say of Latin is equally true of Greek. "In ancient Rome harlots and bums knew Latin. If they could learn it, so can you." We get most of our Bible in translation, which is a so-so kind of thing, particularly when the translators are also trying to shape meanings. Which is why I left the word untranslated. Leaving it up to you, if you were interested, to delve into it rather than just using whatever the NIV or some other translation used. Kecharitomene is an astounding word, well worth the trouble.

Second, the sinlessness of Mary is way less important than the death and resurrection of her Son, and it is in fact only an important tangent to the whole story of the Incarnation. So not having an abundance of texts about Mary is not all surprising considering she isn't the center of the story of salvation. Consider poor Joseph who hardly gets any mention at all, and no speaking parts. If Mary were made out to be the center of the story of salvation you would have a significant point. But she's not. So I'm not surprised we don't have more about her in Scripture.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

This includes every single human ever born since Cain and includes Mary. if she didn't sin then you are claiming that she wasn't of human decent and wasn't human.

No. Not at all. But I do claim that 'all' is an almost universal quantifier as used in Romans 3. It would mean all garden variety people and allow for a rare or even singular exception. You see, by your definition Jesus wasn't human either. So 'all' means 'almost all' or it's absurd because Jesus was fully human in all things ... except sin.

 

[Hmm]

Kecharitomene is an astounding word, well worth the trouble.

I'm sure it is interesting and worth the trouble but my point was simply that if Mary was saved in a different way than anyone else, i.e. from ever having sinned and from death itself rather than being saved from the consequences of sin, and if this is an important component of faith as it appears it is to the RCC then I would expect it to be made a lot clearer and amplified more than it is, even in translations. I'm not disputing the points you're making, just saying that if what you are saying is true then it is important and I'm surpt that the Bible isn't clearer. I take your point about translations but it doesn't sound like the theological point would be particularly clear even in the original Koine Greek.

 

[coffee4u]

No. Not at all. But I do claim that 'all' is an almost universal quantifier as used in Romans 3. It would mean all garden variety people and allow for a rare or even singular exception. You see, by your definition Jesus wasn't human either. So 'all' means 'almost all' or it's absurd because Jesus was fully human in all things ... except sin.

Jesus did not have a human father, so he did not have original sin. That is the difference with Jesus. No other person has been born without the seed of a man. It is the father who passes on sin to the children not the mother.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

Mary on the other hand did have a human father.