What Power Does Satan Have?

[k2svpete]

Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

It doesn't take a genius to connect this to Isaiah 14.

enjoy!

squint

Well, well, well. This must be the first place I have seen you actually quote a scripture to try and support a position!

The problem you have with this is that it is not in context. Read the entire passage.

You will see that Jesus refers to beholding the adversary having fallen, like lightening from heaven. (See a literal translation like Young's)

Repeatedly over about 2 1/2 pages it has been put to you that heaven refers to an elevated position OR place. A king sitting in a palace more often than not fulfills both those descriptors.

Lucifer is latin for morning star, you've been told this already. Venus (the planet) is also referred to as the morning star. The term is a descriptor/title, not a supernatural being.

I'd pay a bit more attention to the understanding that armothe has of these scriptures and use of language, given his background. After all, wasn't the OT written by Jews in Hebrew? Weren't Jesus and the disciples Jews? They didn't seem to have too much trouble in understanding what was written when God opened their eyes.

 

[Ben12]

Well, well, well. This must be the first place I have seen you actually quote a scripture to try and support a position!

The problem you have with this is that it is not in context. Read the entire passage.

You will see that Jesus refers to beholding the adversary having fallen, like lightening from heaven. (See a literal translation like Young's)

Repeatedly over about 2 1/2 pages it has been put to you that heaven refers to an elevated position OR place. A king sitting in a palace more often than not fulfills both those descriptors.

Lucifer is latin for morning star, you've been told this already. Venus (the planet) is also referred to as the morning star. The term is a descriptor/title, not a supernatural being.

I'd pay a bit more attention to the understanding that armothe has of these scriptures and use of language, given his background. After all, wasn't the OT written by Jews in Hebrew? Weren't Jesus and the disciples Jews? They didn't seem to have too much trouble in understanding what was written when God opened their eyes.

Amen.

 

[Ben12]

Here we see another fallacy of the religious system that heaven is up. Up where? Other side of the moon? Maybe past Mars? Let us look even further; maybe somewhere in the Milky Way. I agree heaven us up; but being a higher realm; a place where carnal human flesh cannot go; it is so high (but not Satan). But I need not leave earth unless God glory extends to the other dead planets.

Even in the Garden of Eden (paradise) God had a purpose for Satan; after all will be changed; there will no need of him.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

True, but it flows in the way it is told, not like a Quentin Tarantino film where it jumps all over the place. That, is where I object to that particular interpretation of Rev 12.
Also important is to look to the start of Rev to see the parallel to Rev 12. The first 11 chapters are repeated in a different manner in the last 11 chapters. Where John eats the book and starts again is the 1/2 way point.

I agree . . . I see Revelation as spanning most of time. But regardless . . . being written in 60-90 AD and referring to the birth of the Christ Child it refers to the past of the time from which it was written. The contention of the post I responded to was that prophecy is predictive and therefore Satan's rebellion was yet to come.

My response is that prophecy (esp of the apocalyptic kind like Revelation) does not need to be strictly predictive (and most in the Bible is NOT) and therefore the fall of Satan can be in the past.

Regardless, Revelation calls Satan and angel. So he is.

 

[Ben12]

I agree . . . I see Revelation as spanning most of time. But regardless . . . being written in 60-90 AD and referring to the birth of the Christ Child it refers to the past of the time from which it was written. The contention of the post I responded to was that prophecy is predictive and therefore Satan's rebellion was yet to come.

My response is that prophecy (esp of the apocalyptic kind like Revelation) does not need to be strictly predictive (and most in the Bible is NOT) and therefore the fall of Satan can be in the past.

Regardless, Revelation calls Satan and angel. So he is.

This is why Jesus was so upset with the Jews in his time; their traditions were more important then the truth. Today we do not have Pharisees, Sadducees; we instead have Baptisees and Pentecostalsees.

So Angel are liars, murderers, the truth is not in them from their beginning and God has no control over their evil.

Even though God created the Waster to destroy; some how the devil is a angel (messenger); because you cannot see the word messenger should replace angel; even though the word angel is not a translation but a transliteration. In other words the translator had a bias.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

God’s Word is progressive not traditional; the truth is something we must seek, ask and knock for; you need to have an open spirit.

Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:21-24).

A schoolmaster, (the Greek text gives, a child conductor), was one who held the child in restraint as they conducted the child from home to the school, making sure that there was no mischief along the way, and that the child arrived at the school. Then the child was given over to the care of the teacher, and the duty of the child conductor was ended. The child conductor did not stand in the back of the class room and continue to exercise control and authority over the child, for now the Teacher was in control, and there was to be no outside interference. So also, once we have been brought to Christ, and His anointing abides within us, we are to be led by the Spirit.

 

[squint]

Well, well, well. This must be the first place I have seen you actually quote a scripture to try and support a position!

Now pete, you know you have a huge list of unaddressed issues on how you view these matters, the main one being you do NOT BELIEVE there even IS an anti-Christ spirit that is SEPARATE from mankind...so you are quite far out of the mainstream in understandings...

The problem you have with this is that it is not in context. Read the entire passage.

You will see that Jesus refers to beholding the adversary having fallen, like lightening from heaven. (See a literal translation like Young's)

Repeatedly over about 2 1/2 pages it has been put to you that heaven refers to an elevated position OR place. A king sitting in a palace more often than not fulfills both those descriptors.

I do not believe a physical king falling off a step ladder constitutes Lucifer falling out of heaven...no.

Lucifer is latin for morning star, you've been told this already.

Lucifer was called A MAN. You can call a MAN a STAR if you want. I have no issue with that. But that does not mean Lucifer was NOT a man who fell from heaven. You may also note that the term man and even angel is multifunctional and multiapplicable i.e. not just pertaining to MAN or Holy Angel.

Venus (the planet) is also referred to as the morning star. The term is a descriptor/title, not a supernatural being.

Lucifer is presented as a man who has fallen from heaven...that part is not changing.

I'd pay a bit more attention to the understanding that armothe has of these scriptures and use of language, given his background.

Oh baloney. He already tried to change the term heaven into a word that fits his position, much like you try to do, but of course that methodology is subject to being very suspect.

After all, wasn't the OT written by Jews in Hebrew? Weren't Jesus and the disciples Jews? They didn't seem to have too much trouble in understanding what was written when God opened their eyes.

Irrelevant appeal pete. Sorry.

enjoy!

squint

 

[armothe]

Yes, you HAVE FALLEN from heaven.

Future event:
Amos 9:11 - In that day I raise the tabernacle of David, that has fallen, And I have repaired their breaches, And its ruins I do raise up, And I have built it up as in days of old.

Obviously a man who has fallen from heaven...

The man is the King of Babylon. He is given the names morning star and son of dawn to depict the imagery of stars falling from heaven (celestial); which in Jewish narrative symbolizes a removal of authority.

So you say Lucifer is Nebuchadnezzar who fell off a heavenly step ladder, or maybe a tree stump?

Don't confuse the issue or attempt to make me look stupid. I've stated that the subject of Isaiah 14 is the King of Babylon. Many scholars believe its Nebuchadnezzar. I've already explained that falling from heaven is symbolic for a change in authority. I suggest studying Jewish imagery and narrative if you won't consider my words.

Well your attempted switching of the terms didn't work either. Heaven in that usage is shamayim which is the abode of God, but I would generally agree that the term heaven can in itself be a rather interesting subject.

Shamayim is in the passage but its context is that of a high place (ma'al), such as the sky or celestial heaven, which again - denotes a place of authority - not the abode of God in this instance.

So did these men fall from heaven as well? I don't dispute that mankind can be linked to many terms including stars..trees..wheat etc.

What?!?! Have you even read those verses? A star arising out of Jacob predicts a man of authority being descended from Jacob's line - this was fulfilled in King David. Josephs brothers had authority over him and were shown in a dream to give up their authority by bowing down to him. This was fulfilled when Joseph's brothers begged for food in Egypt. There is no reference to falling from heaven in any of these passages but the symbolism of the stars remain.

A man falling from heaven is not an everyday statement in scriptures.

Luke 10:18 - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

It doesn't take a genius to connect this to Isaiah 14.

Actually, you just provided another prooftext on your own. The context of Luke 10 has demons (servants of Satan) being subject to the disciples and our Lord relates this change in authority to Satan falling from heaven. It is clear that Satan's authority as Prince of the Earth had been diminishing as both Jesus the Christ and the disciples began healing and casting out demons.

Again, literal translations are to blame and usually lead to Eisegesis. There are hundreds if not thousands of instances in the Bible where 'fall' or 'fallen' does not refer to a physically quick descent from a ladder or stump.

Rev 9:1 - Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him.

Daniel 8:9-10- Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.

Mt 24:29 - But immediately after the tribulation of those days 'The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken'.

-A

 

[squint]

I showed you where to look; and I spit it out there. I know he is not Satan; to much proof to the contrary.

You've made NO presentation on "who" LUCIFER is Ben, so don't dance around the facts.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

This is why Jesus was so upset with the Jews in his time; their traditions were more important then the truth. Today we do not have Pharisees, Sadducees; we instead have Baptisees and Pentecostalsees.

So Angel are liars, murderers, the truth is not in them from their beginning and God has no control over their evil.

Even though God created the Waster to destroy; some how the devil is a angel (messenger); because you cannot see the word messenger should replace angel; even though the word angel is not a translation but a transliteration. In other words the translator had a bias.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

God’s Word is progressive not traditional; the truth is something we must seek, ask and knock for; you need to have an open spirit.

Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:21-24).

A schoolmaster, (the Greek text gives, a child conductor), was one who held the child in restraint as they conducted the child from home to the school, making sure that there was no mischief along the way, and that the child arrived at the school. Then the child was given over to the care of the teacher, and the duty of the child conductor was ended. The child conductor did not stand in the back of the class room and continue to exercise control and authority over the child, for now the Teacher was in control, and there was to be no outside interference. So also, once we have been brought to Christ, and His anointing abides within us, we are to be led by the Spirit.

DUDE THE TEXT PARALLELS MICHAEL THE ARCH ANGEL (who is NO doubt an angel) AND HIS ANGELS WITH SATAN AND HIS ANGELS. There is NO room for messanger in that context. Sorry.

And as for angels being this or that type of sinner . . . try Peter:

2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
NASU

No messangers here either.

You are bordering inflammatory by making this issue one worth dogging real brothers in Christ by mocking and calling them

Baptisees and Pentecostalsees

and maligning them as modern day Pharisees.

WATCH YOURSELF. This is not evident of the fruit of the Spirit but your stinking flesh. You want to debate the issue . . . fine. BUT KEEP IT CORDIAL and reflect your Master nobley. Keep it Christian . . .

 

[squint]

This has nothing to do with Universalism;

The presentation that Adam was Lucifer is very common and mostly so within some forms of universalism.

it has to do with facts in scripture; something I have been presenting in comparison with you presenting religious assumptions.

The presentation that Adam was Lucifer is far more speculative than Lucifer being Satan. Jesus stated Satan fell from heaven. We have no such statements about Adam falling from heaven.

You say I whine; but you have given no substance to you religious fallacy. I have shown by using scripture not some dead religious hocus-pocus that Satan/the devil was a murderer, liar and the truth was not in him from his beginning.

I have never said otherwise Ben.

Adam:​

Adam and Lucifer are the same. When Adam fell from God’s grace in The Garden of Eden; He fell from a place of grace and became as a carnal beast or flesh (same as the Beast or it’s mark in Book of Revelations). We all got that bestial nature in us; God gave it to us when we received the curse.

Now you can SAY and SMEAR Adam all you like.

It is far more likely that God MADE the temporal mind and body of Adam SUBJECT TO the workings of SIN and DECEPTION...i.e. the DEVIL...but this in NO WAY makes Adam the SAME AS what Adam was made temporarily subject to any more than Jesus was the same as the power of physical death that HE was made "subject to."

Adam was a son of God; just like Jesus who is the second Adam.

If Adam was God's son as scripture clearly teaches, what makes you so sure the 2nd Adam is not ADAM?

Adam it could be said: no corrupt and dying blood flowed in the veins of these inhabitants of Paradise. No death-dealing carnal mind corrupted them to bring their members under the power of death and sin. They lived in a realm long since closed to the human race. They were clothed upon not with garments of wool and cotton or even seamless robes, but, because of their heavenly brightness and their blessed communion with God, they lived in a realm of transfiguration and were no more in need of earthly garments than an angel. All creatures of that perfumed, effulgent paradise were under their wise and loving control. No timid creature raced in terror from snarling ravenous beasts. The pitiful cry of a dying thing was never heard. Peace reigned supreme and love without alloy.

That is about as phony stretch of reasonings as I have witnessed in quite awhile. Pure fantasy. The very 1st command out of God's Mouth to Adam contained a DEATH THREAT!

Adam could have figured out real fast that he was subject to DEATH eh?

And even in the command, you may eat FREELY BUT contains an instant conundrum.

Had this blessed son in his unfallen state walked the earth centuries later, he, too, would have stilled the waves, raised the dead, and healed diseases as did Christ, the last Adam. But this was not God's plan. George Hawtin

When you do cut and paste you could do a much better job of identifying same. And George Hawtin, as much as I might respect some of his positions, is an idiot on this one, God rest his soul.

God wanted/ordained Adam to sin; so that God’s people will be changed/mature and grow.

Again patent BALONEY. It is far more likely that the flesh and mind of Adam was made "subject to" the workings of the DEVIL and it is then NOT ADAM, but THE DEVIL who entered Adam's flesh and mind that SINNED and SINS. We know from 1 John 3:9 that the devil has:
A.) Sinned from the beginning and
B.) is implicated in ALL sins.

Where Satan was created a liar, not an angel of light and a murderer not a shining star;

Satan can surely IMMITATE being a LIGHT BEING...(2 Cor. 11:4)

I don't disagree with the fact that Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

Adam was clothed by God’s glory before the fall.

Adam was made SUBJECT to God's Command, DEATH, DECEPTION from Day 1 of Adam so let's not get too rosy about his condition.

By eating of the tree of Good and Evil he was brought down to the realm of death (fell from heaven).

Convenient speculation.

Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually.

If Adam was God's son, it is very unlikely that physical death included spiritual death.

In Adam’s mind he was deceived to believe something he already was; instead of doing only God’s will like Jesus. Adam did Adam’s will.

You can blame Adam all you like, but Adam was made SUBJECT TO the working of both deception and death from Day 1 and in that light there really is no cause to BLAME AND ACCUSE Adam...is there?

I doubt very much that God's Long Term Intentions with Adam, His son, was to leave him confined in a DUST BODY that was subject to deception and death...

There is no light in Satan; but that is what Lucifer means; now Adam was a son of Godat fell from heaven) (there is your light t; just like Jesus (born in God’s image.) Genesis 1:26

Tradition teaches that Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word. Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven O Shining star of the dawns" Rotherham"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!"Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"

I have always found Job is speaking of the sons of Elohim (God) this is not Satan it is Adam.

Psalm 82: 1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (notice little “g” or Elohim) 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods (Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, (Satan did not die Adam did) and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Son’s of god are men (Elohim Little g “god”); men have fallen not Satan; he was created by God as a waster, destroyer, murderer, liar from his beginning. So far you have shown me nothing to prove that Lucifer is Satan; and you cannot because it is not in scripture; but only in the minds of religious man; their creeds and dogma.

That is about as poor of a connection to Lucifer being Adam as I have ever seen Ben...you are largely just taking someone else's idiocy in these matters and cut and pasting it. Why don't you get a little more familiar with the scriptures yourself and leave Mr. (now deceased) Hawtin out of it? Mr. Hawtin is not your brain or heart.

Sorry.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Ben12]

DUDE THE TEXT PARALLELS MICHAEL THE ARCH ANGEL (who is NO doubt an angel) AND HIS ANGELS WITH SATAN AND HIS ANGELS. There is NO room for messanger in that context. Sorry.

And as for angels being this or that type of sinner . . . try Peter:

2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
NASU

No messangers here either.

You are bordering inflammatory by making this issue one worth dogging real brothers in Christ by mocking and calling them



and maligning them as modern day Pharisees.

WATCH YOURSELF. This is not evident of the fruit of the Spirit but your stinking flesh. You want to debate the issue . . . fine. BUT KEEP IT CORDIAL and reflect your Master nobley. Keep it Christian . . .

Opps did not Jesus call certain people vipers.. Knock over money chaning tables. Sorry I know i am carnal; but at least I am not following blindly some religous creed.

 

[Ben12]

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The presentation that Adam was Lucifer is very common and mostly so within some forms of universalism.



The presentation that Adam was Lucifer is far more speculative than Lucifer being Satan. Jesus stated Satan fell from heaven. We have no such statements about Adam falling from heaven.

[/COLOR]

I have never said otherwise Ben.

[/FONT][/SIZE]

Now you can SAY and SMEAR Adam all you like.

It is far more likely that God MADE the temporal mind and body of Adam SUBJECT TO the workings of SIN and DECEPTION...i.e. the DEVIL...but this in NO WAY makes Adam the SAME AS what Adam was made temporarily subject to any more than Jesus was the same as the power of physical death that HE was made "subject to."

[/FONT]

If Adam was God's son as scripture clearly teaches, what makes you so sure the 2nd Adam is not ADAM?

[/COLOR]

That is about as phony stretch of reasonings as I have witnessed in quite awhile. Pure fantasy. The very 1st command out of God's Mouth to Adam contained a DEATH THREAT!

Adam could have figured out real fast that he was subject to DEATH eh?

And even in the command, you may eat FREELY BUT contains an instant conundrum.

[/COLOR]

When you do cut and paste you could do a much better job of identifying same. And George Hawtin, as much as I might respect some of his positions, is an idiot on this one, God rest his soul.

[/COLOR]

Again patent BALONEY. It is far more likely that the flesh and mind of Adam was made "subject to" the workings of the DEVIL and it is then NOT ADAM, but THE DEVIL who entered Adam's flesh and mind that SINNED and SINS. We know from 1 John 3:9 that the devil has:
A.) Sinned from the beginning and
B.) is implicated in ALL sins.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

Satan can surely IMMITATE being a LIGHT BEING...(2 Cor. 11:4)

I don't disagree with the fact that Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

[/COLOR]

Adam was made SUBJECT to God's Command, DEATH, DECEPTION from Day 1 of Adam so let's not get too rosy about his condition.

[/COLOR]

Convenient speculation.



If Adam was God's son, it is very unlikely that physical death included spiritual death.

[/COLOR]

You can blame Adam all you like, but Adam was made SUBJECT TO the working of both deception and death from Day 1 and in that light there really is no cause to BLAME AND ACCUSE Adam...is there?

I doubt very much that God's Long Term Intentions with Adam, His son, was to leave him confined in a DUST BODY that was subject to deception and death...



That is about as poor of a connection to Lucifer being Adam as I have ever seen Ben...you are largely just taking someone else's idiocy in these matters and cut and pasting it. Why don't you get a little more familiar with the scriptures yourself and leave Mr. (now deceased) Hawtin out of it? Mr. Hawtin is not your brain or heart.

Sorry.

enjoy!

squint

Just to start with: I have to post all the wonderful things God did for Adam before your so called death treat. I understand how important eternal torture is to your good news; but no mention of the curse until Genesis 2:17. God sure did bless Adam in the before the Garden of Eden as well as in the Garden notice the blue; until the curse in red. You are in such a hurry to get to the curse; you’re ignoring the blessing.

Before the fall the following occurred; there was no death in Adam; who knows how long Adam walked with God in the Garden. In fact the garden of Eden did not happen until Genesis 2:8 (so where did they commune before the garden)

Genesis 1: 26</SPAN>And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 2: 1</SPAN>Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[squint]

Just to start with: I have to post all the wonderful things God did for Adam before your so called death treat.

Ben, the "creation" was made SUBJECT TO sin, evil and corruption not WILLINGLY...but by Him in Hope...ala the infamous Romans 8:18-25. In this light I have no need to blame and accuse Adam and I have every reason to believe both Adam and all of creation shall experience the freedom of the Sons of God regardless, and ALL of that by the working wonders of God Himself. I am on your side in these matters.

The "carriers" of that working are the ANTI-Christ spirits whom God will permanently set aside when finished using those temporal powers. The Serpent became wrapped in the dust of Adam's body...that is where SIN INDWELLS...in our BODIES...including our MINDS... but it is NOT US as God's children. We simply have been placed under those powers by God.

I understand how important eternal torture is to your good news;

Actually NO Ben. I believe very much in the salvation of both all of mankind and all of the world.

There is however another world that we cannot see with eyes of flesh, and that is the world of the devil and his messengers who WILL suffer the fate of eternal destruction, and I have no issues with that anyway...THEY are the opposite or the opposers of life who have been overlayed upon this present creation. There is no need to eliminate, redefine or alter God's Words regarding these matters IF we look to the temporal powers that have been fashioned to work the workings of sin, evil and death...and the eventual setting aside of these things PERMANENTLY by God.

but no mention of the curse until Genesis 2:17. God sure did bless Adam in the before the Garden of Eden as well as in the Garden notice the blue; until the curse in red. You are in such a hurry to get to the curse; you’re ignoring the blessing.

Spin it however you want Ben. I said I don't believe God intended His son, Adam to remain eternally bound in a dust body and subject to death. If you want to make it all rosy prior to that who cares? The existence of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the existence of the serpent precluded Adam who was made and fell on God's 6th day and Adam's FIRST day.

You can cite all the scripture you want. I will disagree with NONE of same.

I do believe that mankind is subject to the workings of the anti-Christ spirits who are NOT THEM...and that's something that you may want to take into factual consideration personally...

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Opps did not Jesus call certain people vipers.. Knock over money chaning tables. Sorry I know i am carnal; but at least I am not following blindly some religous creed.

Ben you may want to consider that Jesus was actually speaking to the vipers in those people who were not the same as those people.

God's children are not nor were they EVER vipers.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Opps did not Jesus call certain people vipers.. Knock over money chaning tables. Sorry I know i am carnal; but at least I am not following blindly some religous creed.

First of all you are not Christ . . . second of all Jesus attacked men who were worthy of His attacks. You are spitting venom at brothers in Christ and making essential that which is non essential.

So much for the fruit of the Spirit huh? Humility would have been nice Ben. You have shown your character. Instead of responding biblicaly and repenting you have chosen to defend your flesh. As far as I am concerned a man who cannot change his heart in repentance when appealed to but would rather defend his sin is in a worse boat than the one who has some questionable doctrine. Your heart is hard . . .

 

[Ben12]

First of all you are not Christ . . . second of all Jesus attacked men who were worthy of His attacks. You are spitting venom at brothers in Christ and making essential that which is non essential.

So much for the fruit of the Spirit huh? Humility would have been nice Ben. You have shown your character. Instead of responding biblicaly and repenting you have chosen to defend your flesh. As far as I am concerned a man who cannot change his heart in repentance when appealed to but would rather defend his sin is in a worse boat than the one who has some questionable doctrine. Your heart is hard . . .

I have had plenty of vipers attack me on this forum and they were not showing the fruit of the spirit either. Jesus never attacked sinners; he always attacked the closed minded religious of his day. That is my point. Defind my sin; I am a sinner and only thought the blood of Jesus am I not. Adam is as much in me as Christ; every day that changes.

 

[Ben12]

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Ben, the "creation" was made SUBJECT TO sin, evil and corruption not WILLINGLY...but by Him in Hope...ala the infamous Romans 8:18-25. In this light I have no need to blame and accuse Adam and I have every reason to believe both Adam and all of creation shall experience the freedom of the Sons of God regardless, and ALL of that by the working wonders of God Himself. I am on your side in these matters.

The "carriers" of that working are the ANTI-Christ spirits whom God will permanently set aside when finished using those temporal powers. The Serpent became wrapped in the dust of Adam's body...that is where SIN INDWELLS...in our BODIES...including our MINDS... but it is NOT US as God's children. We simply have been placed under those powers by God.



Actually NO Ben. I believe very much in the salvation of both all of mankind and all of the world.

There is however another world that we cannot see with eyes of flesh, and that is the world of the devil and his messengers who WILL suffer the fate of eternal destruction, and I have no issues with that anyway...THEY are the opposite or the opposers of life who have been overlayed upon this present creation. There is no need to eliminate, redefine or alter God's Words regarding these matters IF we look to the temporal powers that have been fashioned to work the workings of sin, evil and death...and the eventual setting aside of these things PERMANENTLY by God.


Spin it however you want Ben. I said I don't believe God intended His son, Adam to remain eternally bound in a dust body and subject to death. If you want to make it all rosy prior to that who cares? The existence of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the existence of the serpent precluded Adam who was made and fell on God's 6th day and Adam's FIRST day.

You can cite all the scripture you want. I will disagree with NONE of same.

I do believe that mankind is subject to the workings of the anti-Christ spirits who are NOT THEM...and that's something that you may want to take into factual consideration personally...

enjoy!

squint

Anti Christ is a total different subject matter; but much that is taught needs to be questioned. I do believe that Adam dust body will be changed; but the fall happened not because Adam had very little to do with it; but because God ordained it. I do believe the vast majority of the anti Christ spirit is in God's people; in fact because of their traditions they follow blindly the traditional creeds, doctrines

Antichrist, in first and second John, is spoken of in four distinct forms. I Jn. 2:18 says, "'Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that ANTICHRIST shall come. . . " The absence of the definite article shows that the term here embraces the WHOLE REALM OF ANTICHRIST, bespeaking a SYSTEM, including both the actors and the program they initiate. In addition to the antichrist system we read in vs. 22, "Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is ANTICHRIST..." In the Greek, however, the definite article is used, so that the Greek text reads, "Who is THE LIAR, if not the one denying that Jesus not is the Anointed one? this is THE ANTICHRIST, the one denying the Father and the Son." Here antichrist is the title of a specific personage. Then it says, "Even now there MANY ANTICHRISTS." In addition to the singular person who is the antichrist, there are many antichrists. Then, in addition to antichrist as a person, and many antichrists or many persons, and antichrist as the system spawned by these, there is the SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST which operates in all the antichrists and in their system. "And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST, whereof you have heard that it should come."
Let us summarize these four distinct forms of antichrist: (1) the spirit of antichrist (2) many antichrists (3) the antichrist (4) the antichrist system


In I Jn. 2:18 we read, "Little children, it is the last hour: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; wherefore we know that it is the last hour." God's penman, 1900 years ago wrote, that as the coming of the antichrist heralds the last hour, therefore, since there were at that time "many antichrists", this fact proved that he himself was living then in the "last hour". And if he, John the beloved, saw many antichrists in his day, after only a few decades of progression into the dispensation of the Spirit, how much more may we today say that there are "many antichrists" after 1900 years of apostacy and shame, during which time God also said that "evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13). How much more should we today expect to find the Church full of these antichrists, since God also promised that in this same age "there will be a time when they will not endure wholesome instruction, but, having itching ears, will accumulate teachers for themselves, according to their own lusts; and they shall indeed turn away from the hearing of the truth, and be turned aside to fables" (II Tim. 4:3-4).
John saw many antichrists in his day. The number has been increasing steadily, all through the years, until we now find ourselves surrounded with these men. But who are they, what are they, and how do we recognize them?
First, let us consider the meaning of the word. It comes from a compound Greek word made up of the preposition "anti" and the Greek word for Christ which is "Christos". "Anti" is a Greek word meaning "opposed to" or "instead of" or both of these meanings. The Greek word "christos" means "anointed". When "anti" is compounded with a noun signifying an agent of any kind, or functionary, the compound signifies a vice-functionary, or a functionary of the same kind opposing, or sometimes both. Some apply only the first meaning - a person "against" Christ. But this would not be a very specific point of identification. Millions of people have been against Christ. Paul, before his conversion, was "against" Christ. The Jews, pagans, communists, and members of non-Christian religions of all kinds have been against Christ. But such a broad application of the word could not be what was meant by John. His description is far more definite than this!
When John spoke of certain people which were a type of antichrist which was to come, he did not refer to all opposers of Christ. Instead, he referred to a certain class of people - apostates who were teaching things that were contrary to the revelation imparted by the Holy Spirit! These were not openly against Christ, they were professingChristians and apparent ministers of Christ! Therefore we find that the word "antichrist" properly signifies one who opposes, or one who sets himself up appropriating some of the attributes of Christ. That is, antichrist would appear as Christ and by so doing would actually be AGAINST Christ - unsurping that place that rightly belongs to Christ alone!Anything that is placed INSTEAD OF Christ, is literally antichrist. We have contained and practiced a lot of attitudes, ideas, beliefs, doctrines, rituals, ceremonies, sacraments, ordinances, religious forms, babylonish traditions, which have TAKEN THE PLACE OF TRUTH AND REALITY in our lives. These may have contained bits and shades of truth and life, but they WERN'T THE LIVING REALITY OF CHRIST HIMSELF at all! They were shadow, but not substance; form, but not essence. Any little form of SUBSTITUTION that detracts from HIS INDWELLING LIFE is ANTICHRIST.
If at any time we accept an "instead of" rather than HIS WORD AND WILL AND LIFE WORKING WITHIN US, we have accepted that which is "antichrist". It is not merely that which is in direct opposition to Christ, but also includes anything, which of itself might be good, but is used INSTEAD OF Christ. And, beloved saints, the battle is not so much an outward one, but an INNER CONFLICT, until we are so cleansed by His blood, so purged of babylon's spirit and ways, that CHRIST IN US becomes our ONLY hope of glory! Praise God, the consuming fire of the dealings and processings of God in our lives is being, used to remove all these "substitutes" and "counterfeits" and bring us down to the true and only reality found in the LIVING CHRIST.

 

[Ben12]

I believe the Bible is speaking to me; if there is an anti christ spirit it is in me. Satan if he is doing a work; it is in me; I cannot change the world; but the Christ in me can. I am the house god is building; not some building or system many call the church.


1 Peter 2:4 And approach ye to him, that is a living stone, and reproved of men [To whom ye going nigh, a quick stone, reproved soothly of men], but chosen of God, and honoured;
5 and yourselves as quick stones be ye above builded [and yourselves as quick stones be above builded] into spiritual houses, and an holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 For which thing the scripture saith, Lo! I shall set in Sion the highest corner stone, chosen and precious [For which thing the scripture holdeth, Lo! I shall put in Sion the highest stone, a corner stone, chosen, precious]; and he that shall believe in him, shall not be confounded.
7 Therefore honour to you that believe; but to men that believe not, the stone whom the builders reproved, this is made into the head of the corner;
8 and the stone of hurting, and the stone of stumbling, to them that offend to the word, neither believe it, in which they be set. [a]
9 But ye be a chosen kin, a kingly priesthood, holy folk, a people of purchasing, that ye tell the virtues of him, that called you from darknesses into his wonderful light.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I have had plenty of vipers attack me on this forum and they were not showing the fruit of the spirit either. Jesus never attacked sinners; he always attacked the closed minded religious of his day. That is my point. Defind my sin; I am a sinner and only thought the blood of Jesus am I not. Adam is as much in me as Christ; every day that changes.

Other people's responses do not excuse your own. You are responsible to Christ. Your attitude has been less than becoming . . . and you have yet to humble yourself and display the leading of the Spirit. Read Proverbs about the difference between how a wise man and a fool respond to rebuke and correction.

 

[squint]

Anti Christ is a total different subject matter; but much that is taught needs to be questioned. I do believe that Adam dust body will be changed; but the fall happened not because Adam had very little to do with it; but because God ordained it.

Agreed.

I do believe the vast majority of the anti Christ spirit is in God's people; in fact because of their traditions they follow blindly the traditional creeds, doctrines

Again agreed, but no one is an exception to the carrier rule. All have sin, all have sinned, sin is of the devil. In that understanding I have no use, requirement or rule to count sins against mankind and that Truth of Christ opens the door to allow me to LOVE all of my fellow man and to understand "who/what" I should not LOVE.

Antichrist, in first and second John, is spoken of in four distinct forms. I Jn. 2:18 says, "'Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that ANTICHRIST shall come. . . " The absence of the definite article shows that the term here embraces the WHOLE REALM OF ANTICHRIST, bespeaking a SYSTEM, including both the actors and the program they initiate.

I could write extensively about this subject. The system of the anti-Christ is the "real" control system pertaining to sin, it's works, it's actions. In the N.T. book of Rev. it's called Mystery Babylon which does make TRADE with the souls of mankind. The harlot of that system is upon the PEOPLE...and clearly stated as being there, ON PEOPLE.

We can look at our physical world and it's systems, and yes, we will see the "produce" in part of that system, but we really don't see the reality of Mystery Babylon and it's occupants BECAUSE it is an ANTI-SPIRITUAL working and God has in part hidden that world and that worlds workings...and that world is ONLY revealed in and by His Words...and this is what makes the REVEALINGS of Christ both VERY VERY precious, special and UNIQUE.

In addition to the antichrist system we read in vs. 22, "Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is ANTICHRIST..." In the Greek, however, the definite article is used, so that the Greek text reads, "Who is THE LIAR, if not the one denying that Jesus not is the Anointed one? this is THE ANTICHRIST, the one denying the Father and the Son." Here antichrist is the title of a specific personage. Then it says, "Even now there MANY ANTICHRISTS."

BINGO! There is "their father" of THAT world, THE DEVIL/SATAN/THE GREAT DRAGON and he has "children," his minions, DEVILs, anti-spiritual JezaBEL, etc. ect.

ANY person who does NOT SEE THIS remains A CAPTIVE, BLINDED by that system. Those who DO see this SEPARATE both themselves and their fellow man FROM being the "same as" THAT SYSTEM and it's OCCUPANTS. You canNOT make a good tree into a bad tree. You canNOT make the bad tree yield FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. That system IS what is IS and it will not change until God destroys it. His Light of REVEALING does however certainly SHINE upon that world AND when His Light SHINES THERE, that world openly rebels before our eyes. The real time operation of this world can be seen RIGHT HERE today on this and any other website where GOD'S WORDS are handled BECAUSE 'those entities' are aroused an incensed to anger by HIS WORDS. They "automatically" RESIST! That "resistance" transpires IN mankind.

In addition to the singular person who is the antichrist, there are many antichrists. Then, in addition to antichrist as a person, and many antichrists or many persons, and antichrist as the system spawned by these, there is the SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST which operates in all the antichrists and in their system. "And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST, whereof you have heard that it should come."

Ben, I want to be very clear here. WhenEVER we do not DIVIDE mankind (a person) from the PERSONAGE of the anti-Christ spirit(s,) that is a functioning of the spirit of ERROR operating IN that person FROM and CAUSED BY the PERSONAGE of the anti-Christ that is WITH THEM, but is NOT them...

Let us summarize these four distinct forms of antichrist: (1) the spirit of antichrist (2) many antichrists (3) the antichrist (4) the antichrist system

In I Jn. 2:18 we read, "Little children, it is the last hour: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; wherefore we know that it is the last hour." God's penman, 1900 years ago wrote, that as the coming of the antichrist heralds the last hour, therefore, since there were at that time "many antichrists", this fact proved that he himself was living then in the "last hour". And if he, John the beloved, saw many antichrists in his day, after only a few decades of progression into the dispensation of the Spirit, how much more may we today say that there are "many antichrists" after 1900 years of apostacy and shame, during which time God also said that "evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13). How much more should we today expect to find the Church full of these antichrists, since God also promised that in this same age "there will be a time when they will not endure wholesome instruction, but, having itching ears, will accumulate teachers for themselves, according to their own lusts; and they shall indeed turn away from the hearing of the truth, and be turned aside to fables" (II Tim. 4:3-4).

Ben, when we see the vast majority of our supposed BROTHERS and SISTERS supposedly IN CHRIST, who then BLAME, ACCUSE AND CONDEMN our fellow mankind to be burned alive forever in fire (or pick your favorite form of the eternal damnation of mankind) IS THAT NOT NOT NOT A WORKING OF THE ANTI-CHRIST AND IT'S SYSTEM???

Of course it is, beyond any doubt! The GREAT FALLING AWAY has already transpired and CONTINUES to transpire into our entire realm.

John saw many antichrists in his day. The number has been increasing steadily, all through the years, until we now find ourselves surrounded with these men. But who are they, what are they, and how do we recognize them?

Again Ben, to find understandings here we MUST DE-LINK our fellow man FROM those entities. IF you do not SEPARATE in that way, you will FALL VICTIM. Yet we also must understand and acknowledge that THOSE ENTITIES are in fact with and within us ALL..

A tough gig. I know. And I know this on a DAILY basis, even in myself.

Another note I will put here for you. God's Word was ALWAYS intended both to AROUSE and to EMPOWER that world and it's occupants until SIN becomes UTTERLY SINFUL in preparation for FINAL JUDGMENT DAY...WHICH DAY WILL AND IS ASSUREDLY COMING...upon this earth.

First, let us consider the meaning of the word. It comes from a compound Greek word made up of the preposition "anti" and the Greek word for Christ which is "Christos". "Anti" is a Greek word meaning "opposed to" or "instead of" or both of these meanings. The Greek word "christos" means "anointed". When "anti" is compounded with a noun signifying an agent of any kind, or functionary, the compound signifies a vice-functionary, or a functionary of the same kind opposing, or sometimes both. Some apply only the first meaning - a person "against" Christ. But this would not be a very specific point of identification. Millions of people have been against Christ. Paul, before his conversion, was "against" Christ. The Jews, pagans, communists, and members of non-Christian religions of all kinds have been against Christ. But such a broad application of the word could not be what was meant by John. His description is far more definite than this!
When John spoke of certain people which were a type of antichrist which was to come, he did not refer to all opposers of Christ. Instead, he referred to a certain class of people - apostates who were teaching things that were contrary to the revelation imparted by the Holy Spirit!

Ben, I don't know if you have constructed this set of text here, but it is an exceptionally good view and construct from scriptures, EXCEPT when it starts to BLUR THE LINES between the CAPTIVES and the CAPTORS...

I prefer my Word to make a VERY CLEAN CUT of division between MANKIND and THOSE ENTITIES that are with and within us all. When that CUT does not transpire, then I know that writing remains IN PART and IN DARKNESS...because it will FALSELY blame people, my fellow man, and it will begin to MASK the others...and I see this in that last stretch...where "men" or "people" are not divided from that working.

It is our obligation as believers to SEPARATE and DIVIDE as Jesus did if we want and are LED by His Words to FOLLOW HIM. He will take us to DIVISION and He will FIGHT against HIS ENEMIES and will be FOR mankind...His offspring...every single time....for and in behalf of EVERY SINGLE CAPTIVE, you and I inclusive and even foremost. He fights "especially for" BELIEVERS.

These were not openly against Christ, they were professingChristians and apparent ministers of Christ! Therefore we find that the word "antichrist" properly signifies one who opposes, or one who sets himself up appropriating some of the attributes of Christ. That is, antichrist would appear as Christ and by so doing would actually be AGAINST Christ - unsurping that place that rightly belongs to Christ alone!Anything that is placed INSTEAD OF Christ, is literally antichrist. We have contained and practiced a lot of attitudes, ideas, beliefs, doctrines, rituals, ceremonies, sacraments, ordinances, religious forms, babylonish traditions, which have TAKEN THE PLACE OF TRUTH AND REALITY in our lives. These may have contained bits and shades of truth and life, but they WERN'T THE LIVING REALITY OF CHRIST HIMSELF at all! They were shadow, but not substance; form, but not essence. Any little form of SUBSTITUTION that detracts from HIS INDWELLING LIFE is ANTICHRIST.

Any "systematic religion of Christianity" that does NOT acknowledge and separate the working of the anti-Christ spirit is and remains BLINDED AND CAPTURED BY THAT SAME SYSTEM. Anyone who does not acknowledge and DIVIDE that system and it's occupants from my fellow man IS MY ENEMY and I will NOT camp in my enemies camp.

If at any time we accept an "instead of" rather than HIS WORD AND WILL AND LIFE WORKING WITHIN US, we have accepted that which is "antichrist". It is not merely that which is in direct opposition to Christ, but also includes anything, which of itself might be good, but is used INSTEAD OF Christ. And, beloved saints, the battle is not so much an outward one, but an INNER CONFLICT, until we are so cleansed by His blood, so purged of babylon's spirit and ways, that CHRIST IN US becomes our ONLY hope of glory! Praise God, the consuming fire of the dealings and processings of God in our lives is being, used to remove all these "substitutes" and "counterfeits" and bring us down to the true and only reality found in the LIVING CHRIST.

Ben, we were NEVER promised a removal of the presence of indwelling sin. Do not be fooled by anyone promising a REMOVAL of that which has not been promised. In fact, you are assured by His Word to be placed in the MIDST of this battle, and we will not be removed FROM it...

You have put up a generally good treatise here in any case, save for a COUPLE OF SPOTS...and therein we continue to RUB...to get our shining.

enjoy!

squint