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<Follower> said:there wont be as soon as some of you quite making the assertion that we all believe that way.
Till then, yes, it is required.
<Follower> said:This didnt actually repent thing is your words to defend your doctrine.
The bible shows that they can be sanctified and then fall away.
God IS sufficient.
He doesnt not rob you of your sin nature or your ability to choose after you are saved.
Romans 7 shows that we are always going to have the old man while in this flesh and are therefore capable of sinning, even the unforgivable sin.
You have been shown what this passage is refering to and yet you still use it to show that one cannot commit apostacy.genez said:The unforgivable sin is rejecting the Holy Spirit's working in our life. We can reject his leading. Many do when they believe what is false! For he is to lead us into all truth. If we choose to believe what is falshood, even after we have been given the Spirit to prevent this.... these sins will not be forgiven! When we are evaluated before the Lord there will be no changing things! We will face destruction and the fire of God! For we had rejected the working of the Holy Spirit in our life!
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 niv
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
refuted
Did you miss the "IF" ???1 Timothy 4:16 niv
"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."
The Spirit is to lead us into all truth! If we call what the Spirit would lead us into as being silly and tripe? We blaspheme, and place our stubborn opinion above God's truth. For Jesus told us plainly.... with no exception!
And He will ''lose'' none.John 6:37-40 niv
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
If there were to be an exception? Jesus would have said so! It is you who assumes and exception that contradicts his plain spoken declaration of the Truth that will never change!
uh.....did you forget that the ''exception'' is aslo in the text for falling away?Matthew 5:32 niv
"But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."
Jesus gave an exception here. In John 6:37-40, he says all that come to him will be saved. No exception is mentioned. Are you saying that you have been put on this earth to let us know what Jesus forgot to mention?
Nice try.Romans 8:38-39 niv
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
"take" not ''give away''Revelation 3:11 niv
"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown."
John 10:28 niv
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
But, believe what you want. For, God refuses to remove our volitions after we are saved.
Reformationist said:In other words, I am justified in being ungodly because I think you're being unfair. Well, that's sure isn't walking according to the Spirit.
genez said:"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
Then how about we bring up the FALSE witness against us then?Reformationist said:In other words, I am justified in being ungodly because I think you're being unfair. Well, that's sure isn't walking according to the Spirit.
FreeinChrist said:Unfortunately, I have seen many who are anti-OSAS claim that if we committ a sin, such as getting pregnant out of wedlock from a one night indisgression, or a dumb choice that was repented, one does lost salvation and will go to hell.
And then they spend alot of time pointing fingers at others they think may have lost their salvation. I have been in such churches - and one of the hallmarks is their focus on attacking OSAS.
<Follower> said:If what I believe is correct, then one could become complacent believing God MUST admit them regardless.
If they persist in a life that is not walking according to the Spirit, which I have witnessed in some who are OSAS, then over time they may grow further and further from Him and in the end apostate themselves or become reprobate.
<Follower> said:Blaspheme the Spirit, friend, and I promise you your mind will change.
<Follower> said:Then how about we bring up the FALSE witness against us then?
I have stated a couple dozen times what I believe, and yet it is being constantly presented that we believe something else.
<Follower> said:This passage, for the 30th time, does NOT disprove that one can apostate himself.
I am going to make a standard response for this for each time you bring it up, then just cut it and paste it every time, I dont have the patience to sit and refute the same arguement 1000 times. But by the same token, I WILL expose the error that is being presented.
Did you miss the "IF" ???
What if you dont watch it closely?
And He will ''lose'' none.
This does not say we cannot apostate ourselves of OUR own free will.
Man, this is like the 50th time we've been thru all these.
Ill make standard resposes up asap for these.
uh.....did you forget that the ''exception'' is aslo in the text for falling away? Its presented in Hebrews amoung others.
Nice try. nothing can separate us, that does not mean we cannot CHOOSE to walk away.
Oh for the love of pete, do I really have to post the Hebrews passages AGAIN ?!?Becoming apostate does not cause one to lose their salvation.
It is quoted so many times, because it seems one can look at something and not see what it is saying. And! Its repeated for those who are joining the forum for the first time need to see what you have been denying a 1000 times.
That one really got me.One will be suckered into false doctrines. You will not be saved from evil.
How about you explain to us why Jesus was incorrect about what the unforgivable sin is again
I keep repeating myself because I want others to witness to what kind of thinking believes we can lose our salvation (or what ever else you wish to call it).
what on earth? apples and oranges there guy.One can drop out of high school. But, when you do? It does not mean you stop having citizenship. You confuse dropping out of God's plan for your life, with dropping out of the family of God.
Let see agian......JESUS, the ManGod Himself has defined the unforgivable sin as speaking aginst the Spirit.....what was it you all changed it to agian ???Nothing can separate us? But, we can separate us. I see!
can I ask a question?Reformationist said:Again, if you feel that someone has done something wrong to you and that, in some way, justifies you responding in ungodliness then your understanding of deeper issues of the Gospel isn't the only thing that is lacking.
Now do a search and track down some of Nephilymer (?) and Cygnus' recent posts.Have you ever thought that what you may believe and the manner in which you express may present opposing ideas, or at least appear to?
I, and nearly every other reformed Christian on this website, have been subject to accusations of turning man into a puppet or a robot, despite regularly refuting the claim. Believe me, if your views are being misrepresented it is not intentional. We know what it feels like. I personally understand that the reason most people say the things they do about reformed theology is ignorance of reformed teaching more than anything else but, instead of getting angry, try explaining it differently. That's what we often must resort to.
yeah, we've seen all these before.genez said:"You promise me?" Why is your promise good? Not, God's?
Do you realize where you are placing your opinion?
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:37-40 niv
Tell me what happens when you try to read that? Do you feel numb all over and forget what you just read? How do you do it? What's your secret?
For, Jesus plainly said, that he will lose none of all the Father gives him.
Sorry to say.... Yes. Those who are saved and do not want to follow the Lord anymore, will lose all their rewards. They will face fire and destruction. But, they will be saved.
For the Lord can not disown Himself. We become a part of the Lord when we get saved. We are His bride. One flesh....
2 Timothy 2:13 niv
"If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself."
Want to add to that? Or, can we allow it to stand on its own?
Grace and trembling, GeneZ
genez said:They are simply honest about not wanting to please God, that's all. Yet, they are saved by grace by faith when the accepted Jesus Christ.
And, if your thinking were correct? There would be no evaluation of believers! Why? For only those who walked after the Spirit remain saved. And? If they walked after the Spirit at all times? They would have pleased the Lord in all ways. Yet? What does it say?
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid (which is salvation in Christ), which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation (what he chooses to believer after he is saved) using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, (the fire you keep insisting is one being sent to Hell) and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, (destruction) he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15 niv)
What then is Paul? And what Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, and to each as the Lord gave? I planted, Apollos watered, but God made to grow.
So as neither he planting is anything, nor he watering, but God making to grow. So he planting and he watering are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
For of God we are fellow-workers, a field of God, and you are a building of God. According to God's grace given to me, as a wise master builder, I laid a foundation, but another builds on it.
But let each one be careful how he builds. For no one is able to lay any other foundation beside the One having been laid, who is Jesus Christ.
And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, the work of each will be revealed; for the Day will make it known, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire will prove the work of each, what sort it is. If the work of anyone which he built remains, he will receive a reward. If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.
(1Co 3:5-15 LITV)
Nothing to do with apostating oneself, yet again.1Co 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burnt,.... If any minister's doctrine he has preached shall be destroyed and disappear, shall be disapproved of, and rejected by the churches, not being able, to bear the light and heat of the fire of God's word:
he shall suffer loss; of all his labour and pains he has been at, in collecting together such trifling, useless, and inconsistent things; and of all that glory and popular applause he might expect from men, on account of them, and which was the snare that drew him into such a way of preaching:
but he himself shall be saved; with an everlasting salvation; not by his ministerial labours, much less by his wood, hay, and stubble, which will be all burnt up; but through his being, notwithstanding all the imperfections of his ministry, upon the foundation Christ:
yet so as by fire; with much difficulty, and will be scarcely saved; see 1Pe_4:17 with great danger, loss, and shame; as a man that is burnt out of house and home, he escapes himself with his own life, but loses all about him: so the Syriac version reads it, àéê ãîï ðåøà, "as out of the fire": see Zec_3:2. Or the sense is, that he shall be tried by the fire of the word, and convinced by the light of it of the errors, irregularities, and inconsistencies of his ministry; either in his time of life and health, or on a death bed; and shall have all his wood, hay, and stubble burnt up, for nothing of this kind shall he carry with him in his judgment to heaven; only the gold, silver, and precious stones; and will find that the latter doctrines, and not the former, will only support him in the views of death and eternity.
why do you insist on changing what JESUS defined as the unforgivable sin?Why do you insist on making believe that these passages do not exist?
You mean like these?These plain spoken passages, at that?
Therefore, brothers, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies having been washed with clean water.
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
And let us consider one another for the stirring up of love and of good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, just as is the custom for some, but exhorting one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery zeal being about to devour the adversaries.
Anyone disregarding the law of Moses dies without compassions on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
By how much worse punishment, do you think, will he be deemed worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, and has regarded as common the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
(Heb 10:19-31 EMTV)
Oh thats right. THOSE are out of context, while YOURS are not....convienient
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and became partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good word of God and the powerful deeds of the age to come,
and having fallen away,
to renew them again to repentance,
since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,
and hold Him up to contempt.
(Heb 6:4-6 EMTV)
dittoAre you that determined to see what you want to believe has to be correct?
see above......dittoIf what these passsages say what they do (and they do). And you insist on calling them lies?
<Follower> said:can I ask a question?
Dont get offended please
Do you have an arguement to present or have you run out and now only wish to distract from this thread by badgering me with this nonsense?
Just wondering
Now do a search and track down some of Nephilymer (?) and Cygnus' recent posts.
Its funny you are quick to say this to me, but were not around when they were behaving very unchristlike.
ARe you sure your not being a bit biased here?
Presenting the idea that we're puppets is probably much less offensive to you all than what I really believe.
Id rather not offend you by saying that I think OSAS and CAlvinism present the most arrogant of all theologies in that they seem to state that God is not sovereign anymore and MUST accept a man no matter how reprobate he might become.
So which do you prefer? The puppet/robot arguement or the arrogance one?
I can change to fit whichever you prefer
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