What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Paul only puts the works of the law in opposition to faith in some of his writing, and that for a specific purpose. He also puts all acts of the flesh (sin nature) in opposition to faith.

What I see is not works of flesh vs faith, but works of flesh vs Spirit.


Works of the Law vs faith

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
— Galatians 2:16

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
— Galatians 3:2

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
— Galatians 3:10-11

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:28


Works of the flesh vs Spirit

For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
— Romans 7:5-6

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
— Galatians 5:19-24


Repentance and faith go together

Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
— Mark 1:14-15

how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house, solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
— Acts 20:20-21

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
— Hebrews 6:1

 

[Clare73]

Blessed are the pure in heart.
That is where I started, being an atheist, born and raised. To me, it was a simple desire to discover the Truth about God. Just curiosity, then intrigue, then a certainty It is still a "pure in heart" venture as my only goal, my only motivation is to know, love and serve God.

It doesn't have to do with sin for me. It doesn't have anything to do with gain or loss. It is
a pure heart that seeks God for no reason other than to know God. And to know the truth about God. The more I know, the more I want to discover.
That is what "pure of heart" means to me. JMHO

May I add that for God that means a heart desirous of submission to him (John 7:17; Psalms 119:100).

 

[Clare73]

You don't think we experience the state of our heart, being mudded or clean? What do you do if you experience having a mudded up heart? The answer you say is continue in repentance and obedience? I believe God can make your heart clean, not in the sense of being seen by God as clean, but being actually clean.

Do you mean a good conscience?

 

[zoidar]

Do you mean a good conscience?

No, I mean a heart that loves what is of the Spirit, what is holy, pure, just, good, true and has aversion towards things of the flesh, injustice, evil, lies, deceit, worldly affairs, confusion etc.

 

[John Mullally]

Have you found where the fleshly nature cannot believe, cannot repent, cannot submit unless it is changed?

God communicates with men through their spirit, not their flesh.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the inner depths of his heart.

Where do you see me saying God repents for man?

Clare73 in post 4400 says repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit - which is true in the sense that the Holy Spirit leads men to repent. The Holy Spirit will not do for man what God commands a man to do. The man still has to submit to the Holy Spirit's leading and yet the Holy Spirit is frequently resisted per Acts 7:51. Ha, again you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

This is not a horse being led to water —bad analogy.

Jesus leads and the Holy Spirit draws - they do not lead irresistibly (i.e. force). We see this with Jonah - where he resists and God allows His prophet to suffer by being swallowed by a fish for 3 days rather than doing the presto-changeo on him to bring his unwilling heart into conformance.

Fatalism doesn't just say that everything is predetermined —it says that there is no use in doing anything, because everything is predetermined. Fatalism is bad logic. But apparently you hold to freewill because you see only fatalism as the alternative. Here you demonstrate that bad logic, with the claim that there would be no need for directives in the Bible, were everything predetermined.

Not only are things not pre-determined, Jesus shows that God's will is not being done on earth at this time. Jesus would not command His disciples to pray "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" if that statement itself was not God's will. Note that be is in the present tense. Yet, God's will is not being done on earth as it is heaven as there is no sin, sickness, and death in heaven.

Consider this proposition: There would be no use of the many directives in the Bible if freewill is independent of God's decree. I mean, why should God bother to give directives, since man is going to do what he is going to do anyway!

Because there is no need to hand out directives if everything is predetermined.

A drowning man most certainly does boast, after the crisis is over. "If I hadn't reached for that life preserver...!"

The natural reaction is thankfulness. Have you ever shuddered over serious mistakes you made in the past like running a red light (like I did yesterday) which you did not pay for? Mercy.

No, it doesn't. At best it shows concurrence. You are adding to the text. Second, this, as the context shows, is about temporal punishment —the death penalty— and not about salvation.

Although, I agree there is question if that it is about salvation, Ezekiel 18 still shows repentance before regeneration (change of heart / spirit).

This is also arguably not salvation. Nevertheless, it doesn't mention HOW any of them are able to repent while still at enmity with God.

Pretty straightforward. Ezekiel 18:30 & 31 both say how: its "turn yourself from your offenses" and "rid yourself of your offenses". This was addressed to folks who were not yet regenerated.

No mention of how anyone is able to believe, while still at enmity with God.

I cover this in my last paragraph.

Romans 10:17 says that faith comes from hearing the word of God - think of that as a form of grace given to men per Ephesians 2:8.

Indeed! One might be excused for thinking here that you support my view!

Romans 10:17 follows immediately after Paul's instructions for how to receive salvation - I don't think that is a coincidence. This grace given to receive faith by the hearing the word of God contradicts the Calvinist notion that God must first regenerate man in order that he can believe (which again is nowhere to be found in scripture). Romans 10:17 shows that man only has to listen to the word of God (which includes the Gospel) to receive faith.

There is no scripture that says God regenerates man in order that he can repent.

Romans chapter 5 through chapter 8 would be a good start. Likewise, and once again, Ephesians chapter 2.

Romans 5 through 8 contrasts the flesh which is enmity with God whereas man's born-again spirit is not under condemnation - which does nothing more than highlight the need for the new-birth (which I believe includes salvation). I don't see how Ephesians 2 is going to help your case as Ephesians 1:1 says that the letter is written to the "faithful in Christ Jesus" - not a group of the pre-destined.

Can you at least find scripture that says that man cannot repent while still at enmity with God? For eg, Romans 8:7-9; besides which, Rom 8:2 says that the way to life-set-free from that sin nature (of enmity with God) is the Spirit.

Instead I will show the tools at hand for leading a sinner to salvation and re-birth (which are the same thing). I know the following about the Gospel as the power of God for salvation to those who believe: (a) the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment, (b) faith is produced in those attentively hearing the Gospel per Romans 10:17, and (c) per Acts 2:38-39 those who repent and are baptized (or publicly confess) receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What I see is not works of flesh vs faith, but works of flesh vs Spirit.

Faith is by the Spirit, or it is not true faith. The works of the law don't oppose faith, nor the Spirit, though there is a difference, of course: Depending on any works, as opposed to faith, or as opposed to depending on Christ, opposes faith and the Spirit.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

What I see is not works of flesh vs faith, but works of flesh vs Spirit.


Works of the Law vs faith

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
— Galatians 2:16

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
— Galatians 3:2

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
— Galatians 3:10-11

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:28


Works of the flesh vs Spirit

For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
— Romans 7:5-6

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
— Galatians 5:19-24


Repentance and faith go together

Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
— Mark 1:14-15

how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house, solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
— Acts 20:20-21

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
— Hebrews 6:1

Good points !!!

 

[Clare73]

Romans 10:17 follows immediately after Paul's instructions for how to receive salvation - I don't think that is a coincidence. This grace given to receive faith by the hearing the word of God contradicts the Calvinist notion that God must first regenerate
man in order that he can believe (which again is nowhere to be found in scripture).

Au contraire. . .

The unregenerate can't even see the kingdom of God, much less respond to it (John 3:3).
He must be born again by the Holy Spirit (John 3:4-8).
The unregenerate man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14) only by those with the Holy Spirit.

 

[zoidar]

Faith is by the Spirit, or it is not true faith.

Agree!

The works of the law don't oppose faith, nor the Spirit, though there is a difference, of course: Depending on any works, as opposed to faith, or as opposed to depending on Christ, opposes faith and the Spirit.

We are saved by faith and not through works of the Law. What do you call that then? A difference? If I read Paul I see him say we can't be saved through the many deeds of the Law, but only through faith. I think that is putting it in opposition when it comes to what rule Law and faith play for a person coming to salvation. But maybe this is just a play of words?

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
— Romans 9:30-32

 

[John Mullally]

Au contraire. . .

The unregenerate can't even see the kingdom of God, much less respond to it (John 3:3).
The unregenerate man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14) only by those with the Holy Spirit.

Neither John 3:3-8 nor any other scripture passage say that man cannot respond to the Gospel message unless he is first born-again. The born-again have the Holy Spirit - they are sealed. You don't need to already be saved to get saved. Peter tells us how to get saved in Acts 2 and Paul does the same thing in Romans 10.

 

[Clare73]

Neither John 3:3-8 nor any other scripture passage say that man cannot respond to the Gospel message unless he is first born-again. The born-again have the Holy Spirit - they are sealed. You don't need to already be saved to get saved. Peter tells us how to get saved in Acts 2 and Paul does the same thing in Romans 10.

Au contraire. . .

John 3:3-8 states precisely that.

As does 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Both state the spiritual impotency of man without the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We are saved by faith and not through works of the Law. What do you call that then? A difference? If I read Paul I see him say we can't be saved through the many deeds of the Law, but only through faith. I think that is putting it in opposition when it comes to what rule Law and faith play for a person coming to salvation. But maybe this is just a play of words?

A huge difference as to that aspect of the question. Nevertheless, Romans 7:
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

But, yeah, I think we have been stumbling over each other's words. To me, it seemed you were utterly rejecting the law, as though it were not good, when Jesus says, (Matthew 5:19) "Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Galatians 5 is perfectly suited to this subject.

 

[QvQ]

Neither John 3:3-8 nor any other scripture passage say that man cannot respond to the Gospel message unless he is first born-again. The born-again have the Holy Spirit - they are sealed. You don't need to already be saved to get saved. Peter tells us how to get saved in Acts 2 and Paul does the same thing in Romans 10.

What does time have to do with it?
Faith, conviction, repentance, baptism by the Holy Spirit is One Act of God, as repentance is granted by God.
Man receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is regeneration.

 

[John Mullally]

Neither John 3:3-8 nor any other scripture passage say that man cannot respond to the Gospel message unless he is first born-again.

Au contraire. . .

John 3:3-8 states precisely that.

As does 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Both state the spiritual impotency of man without the Holy Spirit.

Those passages do not explicitly state that.

Again, during the preaching of the Gospel, the Holy Spirit convicts the unregenerate per John 16:8-11 for the purpose of drawing them to repentance – which if the sinner is willing per Acts 2:38-39 results in him receiving remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (which includes being born of the spirit).

1 Timothy 2:4 explicitly states that God desires all men to be saved - that is what the text literally says. That being the case, how does it make sense that God would make being saved an impossibility for most of humanity?

 

[Clare73]

Those passages do not explicitly state that.
Again, during the preaching of the Gospel, the Holy Spirit convicts the unregenerate per John 16:8-11 for the purpose of drawing them to repentance – which if the sinner is willing per Acts 2:38-39 results in him receiving remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (which includes being born of the spirit).

1 Timothy 2:4 explicitly states that God desires all men to be saved - that is what the text literally says. That being the case, how does it make sense that God would make being saved an impossibility for most of humanity?

I'll explain that when you explain Romans 9:20-24.

 

[John Mullally]

What does time have to do with it?
Faith, conviction, repentance, baptism by the Holy Spirit is One Act of God, as repentance is granted by God.
Man receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is regeneration.

So you have everything happening at once purely by the will of God. I don't see that from Acts 2:14-41. Men hear the Gospel and are convicted by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:14-37. Peter promises salvation to those who repent in Acts 2:38-39. And the men that chose to repent, enter the church in Acts 2:41. Remember God does not do for men (repent in this instance) what He commands them to do.

 

[John Mullally]

I'll explain that when you explain Romans 9:20-24.

This is a dodge. I have already responded to that in a few posts earlier on this thread.

 

[Clare73]

Those passages do not explicitly state that.

Au contraire. . .

Fallacious rule. . .for no passage explicitly states God is Trinity.

 

[Clare73]

This is a dodge. I have already responded to that in a few posts earlier on this thread.

Please point me to the posts that I may examine them.

 

[QvQ]

Peter promises salvation to those who repent in Acts 2:38-39. And the men that chose to repent, enter the church in Acts 2:41.

So salvation is not faith but repentance?

Man is not commanded to do what Christ has done. Our sins are remitted through Christ and God granted repentance. In the Garden, the Holy Spirit withdrew. In the Resurrection, the Holy Spirit is gifted.
IT is through Christ that man believes. It is through Christ that man's sins are remitted. It is through Christ that a man enters the Church.
It is the confession that Christ died for our sins that is both Faith and Repentance. We confess not only that we are sinners but that Christ, through His Act and solely through His Act remitted ours sin. God has granted repentance to the confessor of Christ's Act and Resurrection. Man receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit when man confesses Christ is Savior and Lord
Faith and confessing (repentance) are one Act. Confess Christ died for your sins that you might be saved.
One Faith, one confession.