What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[QvQ]

Unregenerate still have a conscience and the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. The reference to "the world" here is not limited to the elect.

Conscience is the Holy Spirit as I understand it. It is the work of the Holy Spirit that a man knows his sins. That is what I said. An Act of God. So in effect, by stating a man is convicted by the Holy Spirit, it is the same as saying his conscience is awakened to his true condition. That is not the act of man but of the Holy Spirit. That is "regeneration." The conscience in unregenerate man is corrupted and it is through the Holy Spirit that the conscience is regenerated. Until the Holy Spirit regenerates the conscience, man cannot truly understand his sins. Which is what I said, a sinner doesn't rightly know he is sinning.

1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all to be saved. There is no scripture that says that the Holy Spirit regenerates a man so that he can believe or repent.

The voice of man's conscience, the awakening and the regeneration is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit A man can't will that anymore than Newton could will an apple to fall on his head.

Sounds like you are trying to work things out. The good news is that Jesus says "seek and you will find" (Matt 7:7-11).

The bad news is that sounds patronizing. My faith and beliefs are as valid as yours.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17). When God reveals Himself it will be in accordance to His word.

The Word has a corresponding reality, in truth.

 

[John Mullally]

This "believe" "condemned by the Holy Spirit" "confess and repent" ..then baptism and being paroled into Christianity is a new concept to me.

Sounds like you are trying to work things out. The good news is that Jesus promises "seek and you will find" (Matt 7:7-11).

The bad news is that sounds patronizing. My faith and beliefs are as valid as yours.

My response was not intended to be patronizing. What I was responding to was frankly unintelligible - a mishmash of terms some of which I have never used together. I recognize that phase of Christianity that I saw in myself as a new believer – so I was trying to provide friendly advice. Be blessed.

 

[QvQ]

I recognize that phase of Christianity that I saw in myself as a new believer – so I was trying to provide friendly advice.

No offense intended, no offense taken

What I was responding to was frankly unintelligible - a mishmash of terms some of which I have never used together.

It is a list, as I understand what you are saying about the order of salvation:
1) Believe
2) Convicted by the Holy Spirit (conscience regenerated)
3) Repent
4) Baptism (not certain where this fits in the order)
5) Being given conditional salvation based on future behavior (stating that God may pursue a long term believer to try to save him is admitting to election and to God's direct intervention in a man's salvation)

I have never thought of an "order" before because the Holy Spirit awakening conscience is not a "time" sequence. However man's will does not have any place in regeneration of conscience or the cleansing of same.
Number 3 I am not certain about. When confronted by the realization of sin through a regenerate conscience, that may be "repentance" yes? But it is a realization through the Holy Spirit.
I have removed "confess" from #3 as I am not certain that is part of your order.

 

[John Mullally]

It is a list, as I understand what you are saying about the order of salvation:
1) Believe
2) Convicted by the Holy Spirit (conscience regenerated)
3) Repent
4) Baptism (not certain where this fits in the order)
5) Being given conditional salvation based on future behavior (stating that God may pursue a long term believer to try to save him is admitting to election and to God's direct intervention in a man's salvation)

I have never thought of an "order" before because the Holy Spirit awakening conscience is not a "time" sequence. However man's will does not have any place in regeneration of conscience or the cleansing of same.
Number 3 I am not certain about. When confronted by the realization of sin through a regenerate conscience, that may be "repentance" yes? But it is a realization through the Holy Spirit.
I have removed "confess" from #3 as I am not certain that is part of your order.

Its good to be thinking along those lines. This is what I just put together. You can find various flow charts on the internet.

1. Hearing the Gospel message preached. Example, found in Acts 2:25-40.

a. Holy Spirit convicts of Sin, Judgment and Righteousness (Acts 2:36-37 and 40)
b. Respond positively through repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38-39). We can expect to have our spirit born again based upon the promise. If you don’t have an opportunity to be baptized, make a public confession (baptism is a form of public confession) and be baptized later.​

2. Join a church as we see in Acts 2:41.
3. New believers commonly go through a wilderness experience. It is vital that you make friendly connections with mature Christians to help you get through that experience (good Churches support that).

a. New believer’s with their born-again spirit want to obey but are disappointed as their mind and flesh are not redeemed and fail.​

4. On-going maintenance and growth.

a. When you sin repent and confess your sin (1 John 1:9).
b. Practice ACTS: Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, and Supplication (asking in prayer).
c. Study the bible.
d. Be accountable to and make friends with mature Christians.
e. Follow God’s leading – listen to your conscience and your gut. Expel reasoning contrary to the Bible.
f. Share your faith.​

 

[QvQ]

2. Join a church as we see

The Bible is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit is the voice of conscience. It is sometimes easier to read and understand the Word and hear that Voice in solitude.
It is just my way.

 

[John Mullally]

The Bible is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit is the voice of conscience.

Agree.

It is sometimes easier to read and understand the Word and hear that Voice in solitude.
It is just my way.

Solitary time with God is excellent. These forums are heavily stacked with introverts (includes me). We should have some balance by meeting together with other believers per Hebrews 10:25-31.

Here is a very interesting article I found when I was researching what Christians believe about the Holy Spirit and Conscience. I believe this theologian agrees with me so I am not wrong about the Holy Spirit regenerating conscience (what else is regenerated?).

The Work of the Spirit in Convincing the Conscience | Monergism

Calvinists have some excellent writers and make reference to Monergism and they say that Non-Calvinist evangelicals believe in Synergism (not words we use). Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists believe in the new-birth and salvation being appropriated by those who respond in repentance to the Gospel - we just believe we get there differently. As you might guess as a long-time non-Calvinist evangelical, I am no fan of Monergism.

Be blessed.

 

[QvQ]

I don't know the words, Synergism and Monergism.
When I read words here, I usually inquire as to the meaning then decide what I believe.
I found that article after I wrote the Holy Spirit regenerates conscience so I know Christians believe that. Which Christians, I am not certain.

However, I been thinking, what besides conscience is regenerated by acceptance of Christ and the Word?

Regeneration is solely the work of the Spirit and the Spirit washes the conscience clean. Repentance must be akin to looking in the mirror, a clear view of self.

 

[zoidar]

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Let's be real here. If I'm stuck in a burning building and I call the fire department, they come for my rescue, raises the ladder, pulls mer out of the building. Do you honestly think I was saved through myself, because I made the call? That's just ... I have no word for it. And could I take credit in being saved, because of the call? That's even more ridiculous.

And you don't read Ephesians 2:8-9 correctly.

"not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Why is it not by ourselves? Because it is a gift, something that is given. Eph 2:8-9 doesn't say anything about how we receive that gift. The point is that we can't earn our salvation through the Law of Moses, not by sacrificing bulls, and not through our own deeds. It is impossible without the forgiveness through Christ. And I repeat, it doesn't say how we receive that gift of forgiveness, but it is clear in other passages it's through repentance and faith.

It is the gift that is set in opposition to works. It is not ourselves that is put in opposition to works.

Agreed totally. How does that apply to a non-believer that generates his own faith?

Here in Romans 3:27-28 it is the same thing: Faith in opposition to works of the Law. It doesn't say anything about how we receive the gift of righteousness, more than it is by faith, and not through following the Law of Moses. The reason we can't boast is because we can't by any deed become righteous. Do you find repentance in the Law of Moses? If not, it is not a work/deed. What part we play in repentance is not explained in Romans 3:27-28.

for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:26-28

 

[Mark Quayle]

Let's be real here. If I'm stuck in a burning building and I call the fire department, they come for my rescue, raises the ladder, pulls mer out of the building. Do you honestly think I was saved through myself, because I made the call? That's just ... I have no word for it. And could I take credit in being saved, because of the call? That's even more ridiculous.

Bad analogy. You may as well hail back to the life preserver in the cemetery. The dead have no way to make the phone call.

And you don't read Ephesians 2:8-9 correctly.

"not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Why is it not by ourselves? Because it is a gift, something that is given. Eph 2:8-9 doesn't say anything about how we receive that gift. The point is that we can't earn our salvation through the Law of Moses, not by sacrificing bulls, and not through our own deeds. It is impossible without the forgiveness through Christ. And I repeat, it doesn't say how we receive that gift of forgiveness, but it is clear in other passages it's through repentance and faith.

It is the gift that is set in opposition to works. It is not ourselves that is put in opposition to works.

And it doesn't say how we have the ability to repent, either.

Do you find repentance in the Law of Moses? If not, it is not a work/deed.

You probably ought to rethink this. You have, on your own authority, made up a rule as to what is and what is not a work. The Pharisees had a whole book of things added to the law of Moses, that were in fact, works.

Here in Romans 3:27-28 it is the same thing: Faith in opposition to works of the Law. It doesn't say anything about how we receive the gift of righteousness, more than it is by faith, and not through following the Law of Moses. The reason we can't boast is because we can't by any deed become righteous. Do you find repentance in the Law of Moses? If not, it is not a work/deed. What part we play in repentance is not explained in Romans 3:27-28.

for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:26-28

Nor does it mention how the faith comes, nor does it mention man's choice. In fact, I'm wondering why you bring it up.

 

[John Mullally]

Let's be real here. If I'm stuck in a burning building and I call the fire department, they come for my rescue, raises the ladder, pulls mer out of the building. Do you honestly think I was saved through myself, because I made the call? That's just ... I have no word for it. And could I take credit in being saved, because of the call? That's even more ridiculous.

Good point.

And you don't read Ephesians 2:8-9 correctly.

"not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Why is it not by ourselves? Because it is a gift, something that is given. Eph 2:8-9 doesn't say anything about how we receive that gift. The point is that we can't earn our salvation through the Law of Moses, not by sacrificing bulls, and not through our own deeds. It is impossible without the forgiveness through Christ. And I repeat, it doesn't say how we receive that gift of forgiveness, but it is clear in other passages it's through repentance and faith.

It is the gift that is set in opposition to works. It is not ourselves that is put in opposition to works.

I agree repentance is not a work of Mosaic Law.

Calvinist take on Ephesians 2:8-9 is that salvation through faith is all up to God and He only graces his favorites with that gift of "salvific" faith. So if you are not one his favorites, you have no hope. In contrast, Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God - so it is available to all and that can be viewed as a dispensation grace. Another dispensation of grace is that Jesus paid the ransom for all men (1 Timothy 2:6) - although there is the caveat that the payment is received by faith. A third dispensation of grace is God's patience towards us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is another one I answered at length and lost before I could finish and send it. And apparently CF didn't keep a draft. Argh! I'll try again, but this is getting tiresome.

I have not found your one specific irresistible gracious thing that God does (i.e. regenerate a man so that he can believe) in scripture.

Have you found where the fleshly nature cannot believe, cannot repent, cannot submit unless it is changed?

Paul says that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation and Jesus says that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment - so put them together. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink - God will not do for man what He commands him to do - i.e. repent.

Where do you see me saying God repents for man? This is not a horse being led to water —bad analogy.

Your cause and effect doctrine is just fatalism repackaged. There would be no need for a myriad of directives in the Bible if everything is predetermined. A man does not boast when he is drowning and is offered a life line.

Fatalism doesn't just say that everything is predetermined —it says that there is no use in doing anything, because everything is predetermined. Fatalism is bad logic. But apparently you hold to freewill because you see only fatalism as the alternative. Here you demonstrate that bad logic, with the claim that there would be no need for directives in the Bible, were everything predetermined.

Consider this proposition: There would be no use of the many directives in the Bible if freewill is independent of God's decree. I mean, why should God bother to give directives, since man is going to do what he is going to do anyway!

A drowning man most certainly does boast, after the crisis is over. "If I hadn't reached for that life preserver...!"

The first "and" term in Ezekiel 18:31 shows a progression. Receipt of a new heart and a new spirit from God occurs in response to our repentance (cast away transgressions). You have it the other way around. Note that "Repent! Turn away from your offenses is also in the previous verse - order matters.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

No, it doesn't. At best it shows concurrence. You are adding to the text. Second, this, as the context shows, is about temporal punishment —the death penalty— and not about salvation.

Concerning works: Was Peter on the day of Pentecost promoting a works based salvation when he proclaimed Acts 2:38-39? In that passage Peter promises the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit (this is arguably salvation) to those who repent and are baptized.

This is also arguably not salvation. Nevertheless, it doesn't mention HOW any of them are able to repent while still at enmity with God.

Jesus puts the responsibility squarely on men for their own eternal destiny.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

No mention of how anyone is able to believe, while still at enmity with God.

Romans 10:17 says that faith comes from hearing the word of God - think of that as a form of grace given to men.

Indeed! One might be excused for thinking here that you support my view!

There is no scripture that says God regenerates man in order that he can repent.

Romans chapter 5 through chapter 8 would be a good start.
Likewise, and once again, Ephesians chapter 2.

Can you at least find scripture that says that man cannot repent while still at enmity with God? For eg, Romans 8:7-9; besides which, Rom 8:2 says that the way to life-set-free from that sin nature (of enmity with God) is the Spirit.

 

[John Mullally]

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[zoidar]

Bad analogy. You may as well hail back to the life preserver in the cemetery. The dead have no way to make the phone call.

Just because you can call out to God by your own libertarian free will, doesn't mean you save yourself or that you can take credit for salvation. That's the meaning of my analogy. It is showing you are wrong in your assertion about libertarian free will and boasting in ourselves for being saved. I didn't try to prove anything else.

You probably ought to rethink this. You have, on your own authority, made up a rule as to what is and what is not a work. The Pharisees had a whole book of things added to the law of Moses, that were in fact, works.

The Pharisees made the Laws more specific, so they wouldn't fail to keep them. Repentance was not among them. How do I know? (Could I be wrong? I don't think so, but possibly) Because it's not in the Mosaic Law, so the Pharisees would have no reason to pretend it was in there to make it more specific. Also when Paul says works of the Law, I'm pretty sure he means the Mosaic Law (could even say it's obvious, since that is what he is referring to all through the letter), not some made up law by the Pharisees.

Hm, haven't you made up on your own authority that repentance is a work? Can you biblically demonstrate it is? I haven't made it up, it's not in the Law, so how could it be a work of the Law? I have yet to see the Bible refer to repentance as a work.

Nor does it mention how the faith comes, nor does it mention man's choice. In fact, I'm wondering why you bring it up.

Because you seem to say it shows we have to be regenerated before we can have faith. Even if you look at the whole chapter of Ephesians 2 (or Romans 3), there is nowhere where it says we are regenerated first. What it says is that we are saved by grace and grace doesn't mean we have no free will (libertarian) part in our salvation. Ephesians 2 doesn't say whether repentance comes before or after regeneration. We have to look at other passages.

Sure you can refer to "dead in sins". It's just that you will have a hard time to show it means what you say it means.

 

[zoidar]

The natural reaction is thankfulness.

Amen to that! Indeed it was. Indeed it was!

 

[John Mullally]

Amen to that! Indeed it was. Indeed it was!

Concerning repentance being termed a work of the law. We know its not because Peter promised "remission of sins" and "receiving the Holy Spirit" to those who repent and are baptized. And the bible says that no one is saved by the works of the law.

 

[QvQ]

"Acts 11:18, we read that “to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” And in 2 Timothy 2:25, Paul says that we must gently instruct those who oppose us in the hope that “God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.”

God granted repentance. It is the cleansing of the conscience by the Holy Spirit?

So repentance is automatic, man doesn't repent, it is a gift granted by God?
That is what I said before, it is an act of the Holy Spirit to cleanse or wash away sins, not man to cleanse himself of sin through the work of repentance, which man can't do or what is the point of Christ. Man could will himself sin free.

 

[zoidar]

This is another one I answered at length and lost before I could finish and send it. And apparently CF didn't keep a draft. Argh! I'll try again, but this is getting tiresome.

Bummer! I try to write it down in documents and then copy paste it. But sometimes I don't. Lost a few posts as well.

 

[QvQ]

We know its not because Peter promised "remission of sins" and "receiving the Holy Spirit" to those who repent and are baptized.

Please answer this question.
God grants remission of sin. And God grants repentance Timothy 2:25
Do you say that man must repent of his own free will for his sins to be remitted?

Just curious, as to theology of different denominations so "you" is didactic, generic believer in a particular strain of Christianity.

Mark and Zoidar can answer also if their answer would be different.

 

[zoidar]

Please answer this question.
God grants remission of sin. And God grants repentance Timothy 2:25
Do you say that man must repent of his own free will for his sins to be remitted?

Just curious, as to theology of different denominations so "you" is didactic, generic believer in a particular strain of Christianity.

Mark and Zoidar can answer also if their answer would be different.

I'm not saying repentance must be by our own free will to get our sins remitted. I don't even think it's all by our free will, but a work through the Holy Spirit as a person is convicted of sin.

 

[Clare73]

Please answer this question.
God grants remission of sin. And God grants repentance Timothy 2:25
Do you say that man must repent of his own free will for his sins to be remitted?

Keeping in mind that repentance is a change of mind, a turning, from unbelief to belief, from sin to obedience. . .all by the work of the Holy Spirit.

Just curious, as to theology of different denominations so "you" is didactic, generic believer in a particular strain of Christianity.

Mark and Zoidar can answer also if their answer would be different.