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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

John Mullally

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Man is not commanded to do what Christ has done.
Yes, and 1 Timothy 2:6 says that Jesus gave himself a ransom for all.
IT is through Christ that man believes. It is through Christ that man's sins are remitted. It is through Christ that a man enters the Church.
Peter promises remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, which includes being born-again, to those who repent and are baptized (i.e. public confession). Paul says that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Man has his part to play in both faith and repentance as God will not do what he commands men to do (in this case repent and listen).
It is the confession that Christ died for our sins that is both Faith and Repentance.
Confessing Christ's work is important but we also must be willing to forsake our ways and follow Him (true repentance).
 
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zoidar

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A huge difference as to that aspect of the question.

What was the question? Wasn't it if repentance is a work?

I tried to answer why it isn't a work when referring to salvation.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:28


Does it make sense to say: "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from repentance." ? Not really, does it? What I would say is: "For we maintain that man is justified through faith by repentance, apart from the works of the Law of Moses. That's quite a difference. I'm not saying that Romans 3:28 mentions repentance, but like I said in the last post, faith and repentance go together and not against each other.

Nevertheless, Romans 7:
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


But, yeah, I think we have been stumbling over each other's words. To me, it seemed you were utterly rejecting the law, as though it were not good, when Jesus says, (Matthew 5:19) "Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


Of course the Law as of the 10 commandments is a good thing. The Law is there for us to follow, but also to point to sin. In Matthew 5:19 I think that Jesus refers the commands he has just spoken, but also the commands that follow in the rest of the sermon, the heart of the Law, I would say.

Galatians 5 is perfectly suited to this subject.

Ok...
 
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John Mullally

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Au contraire. . .

Fallacious rule. . .for no passage explicitly states God is Trinity.
Aw con-Clare. . .

If it was important to know that the only ones that can respond to the Gospel are those who have already been born or the Spirit (who are already His), then it would be stated clearly. In Mark 2:17, Jesus said He came to call sinners, not the righteous and He said those who are well don't need a doctor.

Trinity: The Bible covers the critical and exalted role of each member of the trinity. In addition, per Matthew 28:19, believers are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (so they are on the same plane). I know they are completely united because Jesus said that He and the Father are one and because the Holy Spirit is sometimes termed the Spirit of God.
 
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Clare73

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Aw con-Clare. . .
Good one!
If it was important to know that the only ones that can respond to the Gospel are those who have already been born or the Spirit (who are already His), then it would be stated clearly.
Who made that rule?

How clearly is the Trinity stated?

Nevertheless, John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14 couldn't be any clearer.
 
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QvQ

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Peter promises remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, which includes being born-again, to those who repent and are baptized (i.e. public confession).
The only repentance I know is also a statement of Faith. It is a confession of faith in the Christ as Lord and faith in the Resurrection. Anyone who believes that Christ is both the redeemer and the Lord is saved. So if we believe we are redeemed in Christ then what do we have to repent other than to confess that Christ did redeem us? We are washed in the Blood.
Christ does not demand repentance, confession of sins He already remitted. He only requires an admission of faith in Christ and in the resurrection.
One faith one confession. One Act
 
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John Mullally

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The only repentance I know is also a statement of Faith. It is a confession of faith in the Christ as Lord and faith in the Resurrection. Anyone who believes that Christ is both the redeemer and the Lord is saved. So if we believe we are redeemed in Christ then what do we have to repent other than to confess that Christ did redeem us? We are washed in the Blood.
Christ does not demand repentance, confession of sins He already remitted. He only requires an admission of faith in Christ and in the resurrection.
One faith one confession. One Act
I caution against taking intellectual assent (which sounds Gnostic) to be faith per James 2:14-26.
 
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John Mullally

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Good one!

Who made that rule?

How clearly is the Trinity stated?
The Trinity is clear to me.
Nevertheless, John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14 couldn't be any clearer.
John 3:3 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 say you are not a Christian until you are born again. However, they don't bar those who are not yet born-again from becoming a Christian. The Holy Spirit who convicts sinners also permits them to repent in response to the preaching of the Gospel, qualifies them to be born-again (receive the gift of the Spirit) when they do repent.

God is not barring people from being born again. He desires that all be saved.

Matthew 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​
 
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Clare73

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Its clear to me.
Then we are agreed, things do not have to be specifically stated to be the teaching of Scripture, as in John 3:3-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14.
John 3:3 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 you are not a Christian until you are born again.
Is that all it says?
 
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zoidar

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What about the injustice of the same sin being paid for twice, once by Jesus on the cross, and
a second time by the sinner himself in eternal punishment?

I want to revisit this question. The answer is simple, there is a difference between having someone punished for our sins and having the effect of that sacrifice applied to us.

I think even you Calvinists have to agree with this for you affirm even those Jesus were punished for (the elect) were children of wrath and separated from Christ before they came to faith. Why is it then so hard to believe that Jesus also was punished for people who eventually end up in gehenna, since they are children of wrath and separated from Christ? We see that even Christ was punished for someone, it doesn't make that person a child of God until he has faith.

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
— Ephesians 2:3

remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
— Ephesians 2:12
 
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QvQ

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I caution against taking intellectual assent (which sounds Gnostic) to be faith per James 2:14-26

It is a simple affirmation of the belief that is required for baptism. A confession of faith and trust in God to redeem us from past sins through Christ and to guide us away from future sins through the Word and the Holy Spirit.
Repentance (confession) and Faith are one act

Are there denominations that require a person to publicly confess to sins, with a detailed list, then repent, say they are sorry and won't do it again before a person can be baptized?
 
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Der Alte

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What was the question? Wasn't it if repentance is a work?
I tried to answer why it isn't a work when referring to salvation.
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:28
Does it make sense to say: "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from repentance." ? Not really, does it? What I would say is: "For we maintain that man is justified through faith by repentance, apart from the works of the Law of Moses. That's quite a difference. I'm not saying that Romans 3:28 mention repentance, but like I said in the last post, faith and repentance go together and not against each other.
Of course the Law as of the 10 commandments is a good thing. The Law is there for us to follow, but also to point to sin. In Matthew 5:19 I think that Jesus refers the commands he has just spoken, but also the commands that follow in the rest of the sermon, the heart of the Law, I would say.
Ok.
..
Which specific commandment in the O.T. requires repentance? Only if there is a specific law in the OT can it be a "work of the law." I know not any!
 
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zoidar

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I'll explain that when you explain Romans 9:20-24.

I will have a go at this, even I feel I have a lot more to learn about it.

First I will have to say this makes no real sense if you don't read the beginning of the chapter and see that Paul explains how it could be the Jews as a people were not chosen and how still God's promise didn't fail.

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
— Romans 9:20


The Jew that thought he had everything through the works of the Law is upset: "How can God not choose us, we who did what is right by the Law? Why did He make us like this, people of the Law if we were not chosen?" Paul's answer is that God has the right to do whatever He pleases. He can harden who He likes and show mercy to whoever He likes: "Who are you O man to put yourself over God?"

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
— Romans 9:21


Doesn't God have the right to do what He likes with what He has created. If He wants to show mercy to one vessel and harden another, doesn't He have the right to do that? If God wants to make of the unrepentant Jew a vessel for common use and of the repentant Gentile a vessel for honorable use, He can.

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
— Romans 9:22


What if God who could from the very beginning have destroyed the vessels of wrath, who refused to repent, but instead endured them with patience, even they were heading for destruction. Not that God predestined them for destruction, but because they didn't choose to repent, God prepared them for destruction.

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
— Romans 9:23


And God had patience with the vessels of wrath, those who refused to repent and used them to show His glory to vessels of mercy whom God had beforehand prepared a place for in heaven. In other words God used the vessels of wrath, even they refused to repent, for His purpose to bring in the vessels of mercy, who did repent, to show His glory to them.

even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
— Romans 9:24


God chose to show mercy to not Jews only but also gentiles, to those who believe.

Someome else could probably do a much better job on Romans 9 than I can at this point, but this is basically my understanding.
 
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John Mullally

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Then we are agreed, things do not have to be specifically stated to be the teaching of Scripture.

Is that all it says?
Trinity: The role of each of these exalted members is clearly stated. And the fact that they are united is clearly stated. The Father is the head of the three per John 14:15-31. Trinity is a word that groups them.

Calvinism: If you start with the belief that "only the regenerate can respond to the Gospel", then referencing John 3:3-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and several other scriptures will confirm it. And that's where Calvinists are - and its hard to escape that mind set when you have already accepted their framework.

But that does not come close to proving their assertion. And it certainly does not address arguments made against it from other scriptures.
 
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QvQ

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If you start with the belief that "only the regenerate can respond to the Gospel", then referencing John 3:3-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and several other scriptures will confirm it.
If and when the unregenerate can respond to the Gospel, they are by definition, regenerate.

A deaf person who can hear is no longer deaf.

Therefore:
Only the regenerate can respond to the Gospel.
 
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John Mullally

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If and when the unregenerate can respond to the Gospel, they are by definition, regenerate.

A deaf person who can hear is no longer deaf.

Therefore:
Only the regenerate can respond to the Gospel.
That logic does not work if the unregenerate are born-again after positively responding the Gospel.
 
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QvQ

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That logic does not work if the unregenerate are born-again after positively responding the Gospel.
A person is "born again" when that person realizes that the Resurrection of Christ is true and actual. That is the "positive response."

There isn't a time lag between "hearing" and "responding" anymore than there is a time lag between a person hearing their name and responding (recognition.)

When a person can "hear" the word, that person is regenerate at that moment.
If a person can't hear the word and responds negatively or ignores the word, that person is unregenerate.

There is an assumption on posts here that a person willfully rejects the Word. That is the flip side of "willfully accepts."


'
 
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John Mullally

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A person is "born again" when that person realizes that the Resurrection of Christ is true and actual. That is the "positive response."

There isn't a time lag between "hearing" and "responding" anymore than there is a time lag between a person hearing their name and responding (recognition.)

When a person can "hear" the word, that person is regenerate at that moment.
If a person can't hear the word and responds negatively or ignores the word, that person is unregenerate.

There is an assumption on posts here that a person willfully rejects the Word. That is the flip side of "willfully accepts."
'
Back to Acts 2: Peter promises "remission of sins" and "receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit" to those who repent and are baptized. You should literally be baptized and I don't think you will be hindered if you are not baptized immediately as those in Acts 2 were. The promise does not apply until you repent and publicly confess - which is going to take a little time after you are convinced of the message. There are going to be a lot of things running through your head.

I think a lot of us were unconsciously exposed to Gospel multiple times before we really listened to it - as almost everyone becomes aware of fire-and-brimstone preaching well before they respond positively.
 
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QvQ

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John Mullally: (I forgot to use the quotes)
That is the time again.
Here is what I see you are saying
1) a person chooses to believe (after time for consideration)
2) a person is convicted (is made aware of sin by the Holy Spirit? Or is instructed by mature Christian?)
3) a person chooses to repent (after due consideration and weighing the costs)
4) a person chooses to make public confession of sin, repents
5) a person chooses to be baptized
7) a person chooses a Church
6) a person is granted conditional salvation based on future good behavior

Is this your view of Christian Salvation?
If not please explain what your view is and which denominations believes that list above. This is what I see of the time frame and Repentance, not faith being the necessary act for salvation.
I am open to correction if I have mistaken your view.
 
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Mark Quayle

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how does it make sense that God would make being saved an impossibility for most of humanity?

What do they know when making their choice, according to their inclinations, as to what is impossible? Their choice is real, and without a new heart and mind, their choice is always still unable to obey, unable to please God.

Once again, if you can demonstrate to me logically that uncaused free will can happen, I'll be willing to listen to your interpretation of scriptures that you take to demonstrate uncaused free will.
 
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John Mullally

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John Mullally: (I forgot to use the quotes)
That is the time again.
Here is what I see you are saying
1) a person chooses to believe (after time for consideration)
2) a person is convicted (is made aware of sin by the Holy Spirit? Or is instructed by mature Christian?)
3) a person chooses to repent (after due consideration and weighing the costs)
4) a person chooses to make of a public confession of sin, repents
5) a person chooses to be baptized
7) a person chooses a Church
6) a person is granted conditional salvation based on future good behavior

This is a joyless, almost godless legal system with man condemned for sins he committed when he didn't, couldn't know any better. Repenting, confessing his sins then granted conditional salvation. A man who drags fearfully through life expecting God to kick him out of salvation like a dog who messed on the rug being tossed out of the house.
Is this your view of Christian Salvation?
If not please explain what your view is and which denominations believes that list above. This is what I see of the time frame and Repentance, not faith being the necessary act for salvation.
I am open to correction if I have mistaken your view.
1) As a person hears the Gospel, the Holy Spirit works within the person to convince them of the truth in the message. You called it seeing a light. You can think this as belief.
2) A person chooses to repent (after due consideration and weighing the costs). Repentance is act of belief. Some will not complete this step as with the story of the Rich Young Ruler who Jesus loved in Mark 10:17-27.
3) A person makes a decision to make a public confession of his repentance and new life in Christ. This qualifies the man to receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit- which includes regeneration.
4) A person makes the public confession - some take a while to be baptized - especially as it is confusing if you were baptized as a baby.
5) The person may already be going to church - if not he should find a good one.
6) If sin is not dealt with and the person begins to walk away from God, the Holy Spirit will pursue him per the parable of the lost sheep. Nevertheless, some can become lost.
7) When we sin, we restore communion by repenting and confessing our sin per 1 John 1:9.
7) We maintain strong communion with the Lord - we study his word and maintain an attitude of ACTS - Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, and Supplication (Prayer). We fellowship with other believers - iron sharpens iron. A couple of key passages I find helpful in picking up my mood include Philippians 4:8 and Colossians 3:16.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.​
 
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