• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,364
69
Pennsylvania
✟944,243.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
I think it's a misunderstanding that we are so depraved that in everything we do there is sin and evil. That is how it was put to me by a Lutheran teacher. He said even when you set out to do God, sin is within your "good". It's just not what I see in the teachings of Jesus. Sure sometimes it is like that, that we do good with selfish motives etc, but it's not always like that and certainly shouldn't be or have to be.

I take it very seriously what Jesus says. We can love God with all our heart, mind and soul and our neighbour as ourselves.


You have a problem with the notion that God's command does not automatically imply one's ability to obey. Ok.

Well, I don't really know what to say from here; we've pretty much been through all I know to say. I can't get across to you, it seems, the enormous distance between God's economy and ours.

John MacArthur, to me, seems to wimp out on certain things at one point, and hits home on others, like he says that Christians often have this need to justify God for things for which God doesn't ask or need justification of his ways and deeds. Yet he says that he doesn't understand, either, and he has the same questions that others (the not-Reformed) do. At least I applaud him on his honesty. (And you on yours). But I frankly don't see the 'point of tension' between freewill and predestination. To me, it makes perfect sense. No need to interpret Scripture with the prerequisite uncaused free will point of view. Actual choice, yes. Predestination, yes. And robothood, no. We are willed agents. But our economy, i.e. our 'way of things', is a long ways from God's.

I grant you, that if it is robothood, then God has not (or so it seems to me) achieved the Bride he can attribute with the level, even above the angels, that he says we will be. But I don't see robothood. He does not operate on our temporal level. We are real willed moral agents, and we alone will be one with him in a way no other creature can be. That does not call for uncaused free will.

----------------------------------------------

PS: Just a sudden thought I have had before: 'All our heart' is what a child feels when his toy is broken. But his whole heart is not what it will be later on in life. I have screamed to God for help in finding holiness and Godliness, because I have seen I cannot do it. I don't even know how often I have 'committed my whole heart' to him, only to find out that I had not after all. Yet I find him within me all the same, comforting, bringing me along, reminding me that this is not about me. Maybe that look at things will ring a bell for you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: QvQ
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,364
69
Pennsylvania
✟944,243.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
It was morally wrong to create evil.
Was there something beyond God that created evil? Is God merely a demigod battling Satan while there is Quiet Beyond that is neither Good nor Evil, another all powerful god who allows the entire play to go on?
Or is evil not a thing created?
 
  • Like
Reactions: QvQ
Upvote 0

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
2,381
1,076
AZ
✟147,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Can there be an up without a down, a positive without a negative, good without bad? How would you do it?
I am considering that evil is the absence of God except that lust, greed, anger, the sins are more an active component than simple godlessness. Or perhaps it is the vacuum that draws sin.
There could be an Eden without East of Eden. Evil was the judgement upon men after Adam. So it was Justice that evil came into being. The wages of sin.
IT is only through Christ that man is redeemed.
That would mean that "evil" or rather sin is our portion. We do not have free will to choose because we cannot or we could freely escape the justice imposed on mankind. If we could freely choose good, then we could simply will ourselves to Utopia.
Although, I am not certain I have ever seen evil. Mostly I have seen some very bad things, the result of bad judgement and/or sin, lust, greed, anger, fear, hatred. I have never seen true evil for evils sake, uncaused evil for the love of evil as Satan is rumored to be.
Evil may be a category and sin is the list
That is how I understand it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,478
2,669
✟1,035,865.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You have a problem with the notion that God's command does not automatically imply one's ability to obey. Ok.

Well, I don't really know what to say from here; we've pretty much been through all I know to say. I can't get across to you, it seems, the enormous distance between God's economy and ours.

John MacArthur, to me, seems to wimp out on certain things at one point, and hits home on others, like he says that Christians often have this need to justify God for things for which God doesn't ask or need justification of his ways and deeds. Yet he says that he doesn't understand, either, and he has the same questions that others (the not-Reformed) do. At least I applaud him on his honesty. (And you on yours). But I frankly don't see the 'point of tension' between freewill and predestination. To me, it makes perfect sense. No need to interpret Scripture with the prerequisite uncaused free will point of view. Actual choice, yes. Predestination, yes. And robothood, no. We are willed agents. But our economy, i.e. our 'way of things', is a long ways from God's.

I grant you, that if it is robothood, then God has not (or so it seems to me) achieved the Bride he can attribute with the level, even above the angels, that he says we will be. But I don't see robothood. He does not operate on our temporal level. We are real willed moral agents, and we alone will be one with him in a way no other creature can be. That does not call for uncaused free will.

----------------------------------------------

PS: Just a sudden thought I have had before: 'All our heart' is what a child feels when his toy is broken. But his whole heart is not what it will be later on in life. I have screamed to God for help in finding holiness and Godliness, because I have seen I cannot do it. I don't even know how often I have 'committed my whole heart' to him, only to find out that I had not after all. Yet I find him within me all the same, comforting, bringing me along, reminding me that this is not about me. Maybe that look at things will ring a bell for you.

There is a difference between predestination and election. God predestines for purpose/direction, and God elects/chooses people, including individuals. I have heard it be said that God chooses us and we choose Him, like in a marriage. Was it by your choice? Was it your wife's? No, it was both! I think that is a brilliant picture. With that said I can reconcile the idea that God predestined us for salvation and at the same time we chose Him by giving our life to Him. I would be quite happy to rest on that being a mystery, something we can't or need to figure out.

The last years of my life has been a bit like that, giving my whole life to God and a few days later I pull it back in again for my own purposes. I know it's wrong and I know I should change. One difference between you and me, is that I believe God can make that change in me where I wholeheartedly, with mind, soul and Spirit conform my whole life to Christ, not only in thought, but also in deed. I believe this because this is what happened to me that summer of 2010.

Christians talks about being more and more sanctified, for me it's been more of the opposite. Where I through my own self interests have opened a rift between me and Jesus. It's really a sad thing, something I want to mend. It's hard when even Christian brothers and sisters you know, don't give their whole life to Jesus. It's like it's giving you an excuse. I feel in similar way with the view you shared that we cannot really do what Jesus says. Like it's giving us an excuse to not commit our whole life to Christ.

I know life isn't easy, and that we won't be perfect in obedience, but I don't think it is helping us holding to it's impossible to wholeheartedly live for Jesus. By ourself it is of course impossible, but everything is possible through Christ by the Holy Spirit he has given us. That is my firm belief.

I do have to say I feel with you in the struggles you have been through. I just don't know if "God predestined everything" is the best way to deal with this.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
2,381
1,076
AZ
✟147,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yes, I believe free will of His creatures.
God created man, good and evil and gave man free will to choose? Therefore God created evil.
I prefer Calvin. Works do not save a man and Works do not damn a man. The Book of Job refutes that a "street person" needs lectures about "sin" before that person can be "saved." The entire book of Job refutes the idea that a man's has free will either for damnation or salvation. After Adam, all are damned. After Christ, some are saved.
So if a person cannot be saved or damned by his "free will," the only question is whether he has free will for any purpose and he does not. Man's will is chained by his nature and the limited choices offered by circumstances. Man's will is bound to sin.
No Free Will
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,478
2,669
✟1,035,865.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God created man, good and evil and gave man free will to choose? Therefore God created evil.
I prefer Calvin. Works do not save a man and Works do not damn a man. The Book of Job refutes that a "street person" needs lectures about "sin" before that person can be "saved." The entire book of Job refutes the idea that a man's has free will either for damnation or salvation. After Adam, all are damned. After Christ, some are saved.
So if a person cannot be saved or damned by his "free will," the only question is whether he has free will for any purpose and he does not. Man's will is chained by his nature and the limited choices offered by circumstances. Man's will is bound to sin.
No Free Will

I believe God created man only good, and gave man the free will to choose.
 
Upvote 0

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
2,381
1,076
AZ
✟147,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I believe God created man only good, and gave man the free will to choose.
God gave man the free will to choose something that didn't exist? There is something that exists that God did not create?
It is immoral to tempt a person with poisoned fruit. Blame it on Satan
Now, there are two gods of equal power both vying for man. God is threatening, Satan is seducing?
There are two gods, one who creates only good and another god who creates evil who are warring for man's soul?
What is man? Certainly not a pawn as man has power to be a player. Man has free will to bestow his favors as he so chooses? And he is rewarded accordingly.
Salvation and damnation according to works and only man is to blame?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,364
69
Pennsylvania
✟944,243.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Can there be an up without a down, a positive without a negative, good without bad? How would you do it?
God has no opposite. He is all good.

Evil is only the privation of good, not a made 'thing', like matter and force and principles of physics and art and abilities etc.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: QvQ
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,026
384
86
Pacific, Mo.
✟173,825.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
God has no opposite. He is all good.

Evil is only the privation of good, not a made 'thing', like matter and force and principles of physics and art and abilities etc.
That is not what I asked.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jesus is YHWH
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,364
69
Pennsylvania
✟944,243.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
There is a difference between predestination and election. God predestines for purpose/direction, and God elects/chooses people, including individuals. I have heard it be said that God chooses us and we choose Him, like in a marriage. Was it by your choice? Was it your wife's? No, it was both! I think that is a brilliant picture. With that said I can reconcile the idea that God predestined us for salvation and at the same time we chose Him by giving our life to Him. I would be quite happy to rest on that being a mystery, something we can't or need to figure out.

That view of marriage is far from the only valid one. Years ago, and still nowadays, in some cultures, arranged marriages was the norm, and they were more 'successful' (by numbers, anyhow) than the current norm.

The last years of my life has been a bit like that, giving my whole life to God and a few days later I pull it back in again for my own purposes. I know it's wrong and I know I should change. One difference between you and me, is that I believe God can make that change in me where I wholeheartedly, with mind, soul and Spirit conform my whole life to Christ, not only in thought, but also in deed. I believe this because this is what happened to me that summer of 2010.

Yet your view hasn't changed the facts. Further, the perceived success of results is no measure of the validity of the interpretation of scripture on the matter. But as far as practicality goes, your view has no advantage over mine. God is the one driving both of us, but I think myself happier than you because I KNOW that God is the one in control of not only results, but the very situation in which I find myself. I have no excuse; and I have no recourse, but God himself.

Maybe you will recall me telling someone about the song by the Christian rock band, Love Song, called "Welcome Back", where they have a line about returning to Christ, "...and you have all that lost time to make up for...". I grew up in that mentality, where God has my life mapped out and it is up to me to follow that map, and where I fail, I have to make up for lost time. But I see it is not that way at all. My life moves at God's rate and pleasure, not mine. Where I am is where he intended for me to be at that moment. Nothing but what he predestined for me will happen. The storms, darkness and fog of life are by HIS plan. Nothing can separate me from him. My failures and setbacks are all within his plan. These are not, as far as his plan is concerned, a set back or failure. But they do teach me to depend on him and to walk in him.

Christians talks about being more and more sanctified, for me it's been more of the opposite. Where I through my own self interests have opened a rift between me and Jesus. It's really a sad thing, something I want to mend. It's hard when even Christian brothers and sisters you know, don't give their whole life to Jesus. It's like it's giving you an excuse. I feel in similar way with the view you shared that we cannot really do what Jesus says. Like it's giving us an excuse to not commit our whole life to Christ.

I know what you mean about the rift between you and Jesus, the sadness, the pain and even despair. But no, obedience is not ACCOMPLISHING, it is about pursuit. Wholehearted, definitely a decision, no excuses. It is not, (at least from my POV), about results to present to God; those are already his. But the pursuit, which can only be by the indwelling Spirit of God or it is not true, is never lukewarm.

I know life isn't easy, and that we won't be perfect in obedience, but I don't think it is helping us holding to it's impossible to wholeheartedly live for Jesus. By ourself it is of course impossible, but everything is possible through Christ by the Holy Spirit he has given us. That is my firm belief.

Amen that, brother!

I do have to say I feel with you in the struggles you have been through. I just don't know if "God predestined everything" is the best way to deal with this.

In the years of questions, fears, tears, sorrow, despair and even near madness (or so it seemed to me at times), and agonized prayer and Bible reading, this (monergism, and the like) is the only thing in the end that makes sense to me. Monergism includes, to my mind, not just salvation but all the subsequent walk with God. I can't do this. But in Christ I can do anything. And monergism keeps good company with the simple logic of predestination and full causation.

Like I said before, I didn't even know what I had come to believe was Reformed Theology or Calvinism, until I came on some reading from them, and was told so by some friends. All I knew of Calvinism was the caricature, that they deny real choice.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: QvQ
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,478
2,669
✟1,035,865.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God gave man the free will to choose something that didn't exist? There is something that exists that God did not create?
It is immoral to tempt a person with poisoned fruit. Blame it on Satan
Now, there are two gods of equal power both vying for man. God is threatening, Satan is seducing?
There are two gods, one who creates only good and another god who creates evil who are warring for man's soul?
What is man? Certainly not a pawn as man has power to be a player. Man has free will to bestow his favors as he so chooses? And he is rewarded accordingly.
Salvation and damnation according to works and only man is to blame?

We can discuss why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden. Some say it was because God wanted man to have a choice. The serpent was evil and tempted Eve. My belief is that she hadn't it in her to do wrong herself, but she was tricked into wrong by the serpent. What the serpent did in the garden is a question we can ask. We can also ask how Lucifer who was created all good could fall and become evil.
 
Upvote 0

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
2,381
1,076
AZ
✟147,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The serpent was evil and tempted Eve. My belief is that she hadn't it in her to do wrong herself, but she was tricked into wrong by the serpent
Oh? The Devil made her do it?
The Devil is one powerful trickster, luring good folks away from God who is either threatening or pleading helplessly.

It was in the nature of Eve to succumb to temptation. And the lure, if it had been a handful of dirt that was the lure, it may have tempted a worm but not a man.
It is man's nature to do what Adam and Eve did.
I will grant that evil is the privation of good. However, when God gathered the light into the point we call the sun and there was darkness all around, it was God's creation and God's will that created both light and dark.
It is the Sovereign Will of God that determines all things, light dark, sin evil and the distribution of same according to His plan and His good pleasure.
A worm has free will only within the limits of his nature and circumstance. That is what makes him a worm. His 'free will" choices are inherent in the nature and natural habitat of worm. A worm can do and be no other.
Man can only do what a man can do, he cannot will otherwise due to nature and circumstance.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

QvQ

Member
Aug 18, 2019
2,381
1,076
AZ
✟147,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Like I said before, I didn't even know what I had come to believe was Reformed Theology or Calvinism, until I came on some reading from them, and was told so by some friends. All I knew of Calvinism was the caricature, that they deny real choice.
I found the following Quote on Wikipedia. This is to me, the actual definition of Calvinism.

The sovereignty of God was "Calvin’s most central doctrine. It means that nothing is left to chance or human free will. The heart of Calvinism is not the doctrine of predestination, or, for that matter, any one of the other 5 Points of Calvinism. The central truth proclaimed by Calvinism, Calvinism that is faithful to its heritage, is the absolute sovereignty of God.

That is the central point where all my theological arguments begin and end. The Absolute Sovereignty of God. I didn't even know what I had come to believe was Calvinism but reading this thread, I always seen to argue for Calvin from that central doctrine. All theology begins and ends with that doctrine for me.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,364
69
Pennsylvania
✟944,243.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
That is not what I asked.
But it is an answer. Perhaps to your question, "How would you do it?", you would prefer my answer, "*I* wouldn't". It is a bogus question that assumes a duality or a creating of evil.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,282
6,364
69
Pennsylvania
✟944,243.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
I have heard it be said that God chooses us and we choose Him, like in a marriage. Was it by your choice? Was it your wife's? No, it was both! I think that is a brilliant picture.
Another thing that relates to this is the fact that when the girl marries, she hardly has a clue what she is getting into. But after, whether she was given the opportunity to agree to the marriage or not, she may well happily agree to the marriage. When God regenerates us, whether we realize it or not, our wills are changed, and we pursue Christ.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: QvQ
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,026
384
86
Pacific, Mo.
✟173,825.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But it is an answer. Perhaps to your question, "How would you do it?", you would prefer my answer, "*I* wouldn't". It is a bogus question that assumes a duality or a creating of evil.
More opinions, non responsive.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,478
2,669
✟1,035,865.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Oh? The Devil made her do it?
The Devil is one powerful trickster, luring good folks away from God who is either threatening or pleading helplessly.

It was in the nature of Eve to succumb to temptation. And the lure, if it had been a handful of dirt that was the lure, it may have tempted a worm but not a man.
It is man's nature to do what Adam and Eve did.
I will grant that evil is the privation of good. However, when God gathered the light into the point we call the sun and there was darkness all around, it was God's creation and God's will that created both light and dark.
It is the Sovereign Will of God that determines all things, light dark, sin evil and the distribution of same according to His plan and His good pleasure.
A worm has free will only within the limits of his nature and circumstance. That is what makes him a worm. His 'free will" choices are inherent in the nature and natural habitat of worm. A worm can do and be no other.
Man can only do what a man can do, he cannot will otherwise due to nature and circumstance.

If they could have sinned without the serpent, the serpent had no purpose.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0