What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

That is confusing. Christ died for our sins or only Adam's sins? What about the doctrine of Justification?
Repentance necessary to rebirth seems to be "works" performed to gain salvation. Faith and redemption (justification) are by the Grace of God alone. Why confess to something that is "washed away?"
Perhaps Justification means something else in your hierarchy.

Repentance is a change of mind/direction, and it occurs only by the Holy Spirit.

 

[John Mullally]

Repentance is a change of mind/direction, and it occurs only by the Holy Spirit.

Although the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement (John 16:8-11), and glorifies Jesus (John 16:13-15), only men can repent. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) and God will not do for men what He commands for them to do. The Holy Spirit is frequently resisted (Acts 7:51). Many, but not all, resist Him for the reason given in John 3:18.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What you seem to be saying is that God has another messure of moral than His creation/our standard. If that is true we need to question the whole notion of moral. How do we know then what is just and not? If God can be unjust by our moral standard and still be just, then why can't we? After all God is the true measure of moral. If God can be unjust by our moral measure, I have no idea what justice is or what is unjust.

I hope you won't say something like man is morally corrupt, then you are completely missing the point.

I'm not sure why you are talking about 'moral' when it comes to the question of whether God causes all things vs. Chance causing some of them.

 

[zoidar]

Repentance is a change of mind/direction, and it occurs only by the Holy Spirit.

I know it's explained this way by some. For me it was more of turning to God with all heart and soul, where God responded by giving me His Spirit, thus my life took a new direction. I tend to think a change of mind is not the same as repentance. We need a change of mind to repent, and then there is a change of life.

 

[QvQ]

Then you believe that before a person is saved, that person must confess and renounce his sins, even before he is certain what sin is or what is required by God?
IT would seem that only those who have studied the Bible in detail would be eligible for accepting Christ.
That would entail "work" because to repent of sin is to have an understanding of what exactly that entails.
After a person has faith, is saved and justified, the sins are washed clean so what is the point of a full knowledgeable confession of sins, repentance before salvation which includes Justification?
I am considering that your denomination does not accept the doctrines of grace, faith and justification. Am I correct?

 

[zoidar]

I'm not sure why you are talking about 'moral' when it comes to the question of whether God causes all things vs. Chance causing some of them.

Because to me it seemed you said in your last post that God can do whatever He likes, even be immoral from our standard, because God has the right to do whatever He likes. If we judge God by our standard we elevate man, wasn't that what you meant?

We have already talked about how uncaused free will might work. I gave the water in the bucket example. I believe in the end it comes down to faith. Either you believe in libertarian free will, or you don't. Even I don't know exactly how God created man with libertarian free will, I believe He did. I believe God is able to do this, even I don't know the details.

Concerning the idea of "chance", no Christian as far as I know believe in chance. For you saying it's the only possible alternative to causal determinism, I think is making God small, and putting logic over what is possible for God. This of course doesn't mean I'm right about libertarian free will, only that it's an available option for God, how He created man.

 

[Clare73]

I know it's explained this way by some. For me it was more of
turning to God with all heart and soul, where God responded by giving me His Spirit

It is the Holy Spirit who enabled you to turn.

thus my life took a new direction. I tend to think a change of mind is not the same as repentance. We need a change of mind to repent, and then there is a change of life.

That is repentance.

 

[zoidar]

It is the Holy Spirit who enabled you to turn.

That is repentance.

I would say repentance leads to a changed of life.

 

[zoidar]

Then you believe that before a person is saved, that person must confess and renounce his sins, even before he is certain what sin is or what is required by God?
IT would seem that only those who have studied the Bible in detail would be eligible for accepting Christ.
That would entail "work" because to repent of sin is to have an understanding of what exactly that entails.
After a person has faith, is saved and justified, the sins are washed clean so what is the point of a full knowledgeable confession of sins, repentance before salvation which includes Justification?
I am considering that your denomination does not accept the doctrines of grace, faith and justification. Am I correct?

I attend a Lutheran church. I don't fully share their view of salvation.

 

[Clare73]

I attened a Lutheran church. I don't fully share their view of salvation.

But you have a great church family. . .worth gold.

 

[QvQ]

I attened a Lutheran church. I don't fully share their view of salvation.

And, what portion of Lutheran do you not share.

(I learn all sorts of interesting things, such as what Lutherans believe)

 

[zoidar]

But you have a great church family. . .worth gold.

Are you ridiculing me?

 

[zoidar]

And, what portion of Lutheran do you not share.

(I learn all sorts of interesting things, such as what Lutherans believe)

They believe repentance is the same thing as trusting in Christ for salvation. I believe repentance is turning your life to Christ for salvation.

 

[QvQ]

They believe repentance is the same thing as trusting in Christ for salvation. I believe repentance is turning your life to Christ for salvation.

What you believe is that a person would have to repent to get salvation in Christ? Turn himself in as criminal, confess and promise to mend his wicked ways to get a pardon, so to speak?
The Lutheran view is that faith in Christ is sufficient for salvation?

 

[zoidar]

What you believe is that a person would have to repent to get salvation in Christ? Turn himself in as criminal, confess and promise to mend his wicked ways to get a pardon, so to speak?

Basically, yes!

The Lutheran view is that faith in Christ is sufficient for salvation?

Yes!

I believe that too, as far as it is genuine faith, given us through the Holy Spirit.

 

[John Mullally]

Then you believe that before a person is saved, that person must confess and renounce his sins, even before he is certain what sin is or what is required by God?

I assume you are talking to me. It is helpful to reference points in another's post.

During street evangelism, the sin topic is always brought up. The Holy Spirt uses our words if they are aligned with scripture - He is the one who convicts of sin.

IT would seem that only those who have studied the Bible in detail would be eligible for accepting Christ.
That would entail "work" because to repent of sin is to have an understanding of what exactly that entails.

Acts 2:14-41 provides the most detail for preaching the Gospel that I have found in the NT - and it still is not that detailed. In this passage since Peter was preaching to Jews who were conscious of sin (especially of crucifying Christ), he did not have to dwell on sin. Some evangelists like Ray Comfort dwell mostly on sin - I believe because he wants the sinner to examine the true cost of giving their life to Christ - its not something you try.

After a person has faith, is saved and justified, the sins are washed clean so what is the point of a full knowledgeable confession of sins, repentance before salvation which includes Justification?

I don't understand what specifically you are asking for.

The need to confess and repent of sin never goes away per 1 John 1:9. If the flesh can give Paul problems, then we are not exempt.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.​

I am considering that your denomination does not accept the doctrines of grace, faith and justification. Am I correct?

I believe in grace, faith, and justification. But like over 90% of Christendom, I am not a Calvinist and I do not accept what is termed the "Doctrines of Grace".

 

[QvQ]

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[QvQ]

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[Clare73]

Are you ridiculing me?

Absolutely not! I'm pointing out the fellowship we can enjoy even if we don't agree with everything.

 

[Clare73]

Basically, yes!



Yes!

I believe that too, as far as it is genuine faith, given us through the Holy Spirit.

Without turning from sin?