What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Absolutely not! I'm pointing out the the fellowship we can enjoy even if we don't agree with everything.

Ok! Thanks for clearing that up. That is absolutely true.

 

[zoidar]

Without turning from sin?

I believe to have genuine faith we must turn from sin. As we have genuine faith we walk in the Spirit, which means obedience (I don't fully like the word. Sounds too static) to Christ.

My Lutheran friends believe if we have faith in Christ for salvation, the natural consequence is turning from sin.

 

[Clare73]

I believe to have genuine faith we must turn from sin. As we have genuine faith we walk in the Spirit, which means obedience (I don't fully like the word. Sounds too static) to Christ.

My Lutheran friends believe if we have faith in Christ for salvation, the natural consequence is turning from sin.

True. . .

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because to me it seemed you said in your last post that God can do whatever He likes, even be immoral from our standard, because God has the right to do whatever He likes. If we judge God by our standard we elevate man, wasn't that what you meant?

Not quite. God does whatever he does, regardless of what we think of it. And while it is true that if we judge God by our standard, when we do so, yes, we elevate man. But "If that is true we need to question the whole notion of moral. How do we know then what is just and not?" God tells us what is just for us to do or not to do. For us to decide to wipe out a whole nation is wrong. For him to do it is his right by ownership, not to mention justice by his reason for doing so. We know what is moral for us to do. I thought we'd been through this before. If I tell my child to be in bed by 8, it is no indication that I should be in bed by 8.

We have already talked about how uncaused free will might work. I gave the water in the bucket example. I believe in the end it comes down to faith. Either you believe in libertarian free will, or you don't. Even I don't know exactly how God created man with libertarian free will, I believe He did. I believe God is able to do this, even I don't know the details.

Ok, is libertarian free will caused, or uncaused?

Concerning the idea of "chance", no Christian as far as I know believe in chance. For you saying it's the only possible alternative to causal determinism, I think is making God small, and putting logic over what is possible for God. This of course doesn't mean I'm right about libertarian free will, only that it's an available option for God, how He created man.

I don't know if I said that Chance is the only "possible" alternative, but it is logically the only alternative to God causing all things. Even your narrative of God giving man or creating man with libertarian free will, whatever you mean by that, demonstrates that libertarian free will is caused.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I know it's explained this way by some. For me it was more of turning to God with all heart and soul, where God responded by giving me His Spirit, thus my life took a new direction. I tend to think a change of mind is not the same as repentance. We need a change of mind to repent, and then there is a change of life.

How many times have you turned to God with all your heart and soul? I know my own heart well enough to know the fickleness of it, one day tears of repentance, the next day to wallow in the mire.

We don't well-enough know what sin is, what repentance will cost us, what God has done for us and what we are saying when we repent. Nor do we have the force of will to maintain our claim, nor the integrity. Nor many other things in sufficient quantity and quality. But the Spirit of God does.

It is not a matter of God doing his part and us doing ours. God does the whole matter, and so we walk in it.

 

[zoidar]

How many times have you turned to God with all your heart and soul?

Once! I only have one such occasion in my life. That is when I was saved.

I know my own heart well enough to know the fickleness of it, one day tears of repentance, the next day to wallow in the mire.

We don't well-enough know what sin is, what repentance will cost us, what God has done for us and what we are saying when we repent. Nor do we have the force of will to maintain our claim, nor the integrity. Nor many other things in sufficient quantity and quality. But the Spirit of God does.

I well know the battles in life. I have done some pretty miserable things and I'm just thankful God forgives. I do struggle with sin, I'm sad to say that, but I think it's partly because I have mudded up my own heart by sinning. No I don't think we can be perfect. But I do think we can love God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbour as ourselves.

And He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
— Matthew 22:37-40

It is not a matter of God doing his part and us doing ours. God does the whole matter, and so we walk in it.

It's all God's work we are saved. But I believe we need to walk in Spirit, and that is something we as believers can choose to do or not to do. Sometimes it costs us plenty to be faithful to God, a choice on our part, not something God will do for us. (I learned that the hard way)

 

[John Mullally]

I believe to have genuine faith we must turn from sin. As we have genuine faith we walk in the Spirit, which means obedience (I don't fully like the word. Sounds too static) to Christ.

My Lutheran friends believe if we have faith in Christ for salvation, the natural consequence is turning from sin.

Agree, turning away from the flesh (and sin) is not automatic for the saved per Paul:

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.​

 

[Mark Quayle]

Once! I only have one such occasion in my life. That is when I was saved.



I well know the battles in life. I have done some pretty miserable things and I'm just thankful God forgives. I do struggle with sin, I'm sad to say that, but I think it's partly because I have mudded up my own heart by sinning. No I don't think we can be perfect. But I do think we can love God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbour as ourselves.

And He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
— Matthew 22:37-40



It's all God's work we are saved. But I believe we need to walk in Spirit, and that is something we as believers can choose to do or not to do. Sometimes it costs us plenty to be faithful to God, a choice on our part, not something God will make for us. (I learned that the hard way)

While I do think there are many different kinds of people, I also think that if you have only repented once and turned to God 'wholeheartedly' only once, then God hasn't shown you the extent of your need for him.

Reminds me of a guy (Wesleyan, 'Second Work of Grace') who told me he never sins anymore; I told him I'd like to talk to his wife.

 

[zoidar]

While I do think there are many different kinds of people, I also think that if you have only repented once and turned to God 'wholeheartedly' only once, then God hasn't shown you the extent of your need for him.

Reminds me of a guy (Wesleyan, 'Second Work of Grace') who told me he never sins anymore; I told him I'd like to talk to his wife.

It was about turning to God with all heart and soul which I don't think is the same as wholeheartedly. To turn to God for forgiveness I have done many times, but there is a clear difference between that one time and all the other times as a Christian. When you know your eternal destiny hangs on thread you repent, with heart, soul and mind. It's not the same when you as a Christian who is already in the boat repents.

 

[zoidar]

Not quite. God does whatever he does, regardless of what we think of it. And while it is true that if we judge God by our standard, when we do so, yes, we elevate man. But "If that is true we need to question the whole notion of moral. How do we know then what is just and not?" God tells us what is just for us to do or not to do. For us to decide to wipe out a whole nation is wrong. For him to do it is his right by ownership, not to mention justice by his reason for doing so. We know what is moral for us to do. I thought we'd been through this before. If I tell my child to be in bed by 8, it is no indication that I should be in bed by 8.

Agree that God can do things we can't, still be righteous, where we would be sinners. But the general idea that it's right to punish criminals for their crime is something we hold as morally correct. That God punishes and destroys a whole city of evil men, we understand by our moral is right, even we couldn't do the same thing ourselves. To create a person for a purpose, which he can't possibly avoid, and still hold him accountable for that purpose, we understand by our moral, which God has given us, is wrong. If God then can do that and still be just, then we and Him go by a different standard of moral. Our sense of moral would have to be flawed.

Ok, is libertarian free will caused, or uncaused?

I don't know if I said that Chance is the only "possible" alternative, but it is logically the only alternative to God causing all things. Even your narrative of God giving man or creating man with libertarian free will, whatever you mean by that, demonstrates that libertarian free will is caused.

Libertarian free will I think can be either. Whether it's caused or not I don't think matters to the theory.

I think were you go wrong is that you believe because something is caused, its freedom fits into a chain of causation. I don't believe that. I believe libertarian free will means to be able to make decisions that are undetermined by past events. Just because free will is caused by prior event, doesn't mean its specific choice is caused by prior event.

I think it is good if you are open to other possible alternatives to your view than "chance".

 

[John Mullally]

It seems that this thread "What is wrong with Calvinism?" is at or near its end, so I will reiterate my summary on this topic (edited from Post 366):

Things I find wrong about Calvinism:

1. Calvinists have God decreeing our every action well before our birth even though the scriptures are full of directives addressed to men. Why the directives, if God has already decreed our every action? Seems literally like miss-direction.
2. Calvinists (at least Clare73 in Post 357 and John Piper and John MacArthur) say the God in charge of everything decrees things out of line with His desires. Wrong, God is not schizophrenic.
3. 1 Timothy 2:4 & 2 Peter 3:9 say that God desires all to be saved, but Calvin says that God predestines some before birth to eternal hell fire and God receives glory from that. Perhaps this mystery is solved by understanding Point #2.
4. Calvinists say that a God who predestines some before birth to eternal hell fire (per John Calvin) is a God of Love, Mercy, and Justice.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It seems that this thread "What is wrong with Calvinism?" is at or near its end, so I will reiterate my summary on this topic (from Post 366):

Things I find wrong about Calvinism:

1. Calvinists have God decreeing our actions well before our birth even though the scriptures are full of directives addressed to men. Why the directives, if God has already decreed our every action? Seems literally like miss-direction.
2. Calvinists (at least Clare73 in Post 357) say the God in charge of everything decrees things out of line with His desires. Wrong, God is not schizophrenic.
3. 1 Timothy 2:4 & 2 Peter 3:9 say that God desires all to be saved, but Calvin says that God predestines some before birth to eternal hell fire and God receives glory from that. Perhaps this mystery is solved by understanding Point #2.
4. Calvinists say that a God who predestines some before birth to eternal hell fire (per John Calvin) is a God of Love, Mercy, and Justice.

How would believing Calvinist theology make me a better person? I don't see how believing any of the above is going to make anyone a better person.

When threads like this continue they can evolve in many areas for some good dialogue and discussions. On another forum I had a thread on the bodily Resurrection have over 60k responses and it remained a hot topic for several years . The interest in the topic and those involved in the discussion is what allows it to run its course . Many times I take a break then come back . Everyone is wired a little different.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It was about turning to God with all heart and soul which I don't think is the same as wholeheartedly. To turn to God for forgiveness I have done many times, but there is a clear difference between that one time and all the other times as a Christian. When you know your eternal destiny hangs on thread you repent, with heart, soul and mind. It's not the same when you as a Christian who is already in the boat repents.

I don't think God has shown you the depths of the depravity of 'the old man'. Just saying. And he doesn't have to for you to be saved.

But beyond that, I don't see it possible that your decision for Christ has any real validity apart from the Spirit of God in you making that decision in you. Only God knows what that commitment is for and what it entails and how it is possible. Only God has the integrity to make it committed. And only God can bring it to pass, and take it to completion. The fact we also do so is evidence of God doing it in us. If it is only me doing it, "The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror. The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." — Isaiah 28: 19-22

 

[Mark Quayle]

To create a person for a purpose, which he can't possibly avoid, and still hold him accountable for that purpose, we understand by our moral, which God has given us, is wrong. If God then can do that and still be just, then we and Him go by a different standard of moral. Our sense of moral would have to be flawed.

God wiped out all but 8 in the flood. Including new-born babies. Unsaved children. People brought up badly. Half-wits and clinical idiots. Are they not his do with as he chooses? We both agree he will not be unjust as to their judgement. But here, it seems to me, you want to get into deciding for him what is just and what is not, ignoring the plain logic, (not to mention, much of Scripture, none of which I can find denies causation).

Libertarian free will I think can be either. Whether it's caused or not I don't think matters to the theory.

I think were you go wrong is that you believe because something is caused, its freedom fits into a chain of causation. I don't believe that. I believe libertarian free will means to be able to make decisions that are undetermined by past events. Just because free will is caused by prior event, doesn't mean its specific choice is caused by prior event.

I think it is good if you are open to other possible alternatives to your view than "chance".

If it is caused, then it is predetermined. Or it is chance and not caused, which is self-contradictory. Therefore, it impinges on the theory. If there is such a thing as libertarian freewill, whatever you mean by it, it is caused. If God knew, and created anyway, he caused it. If he did not know, then he is not omniscient, in spite of what Open Theists say.

 

[zoidar]

God wiped out all but 8 in the flood. Including new-born babies. Unsaved children. People brought up badly. Half-wits and clinical idiots. Are they not his do with as he chooses? We both agree he will not be unjust as to their judgement. But here, it seems to me, you want to get into deciding for him what is just and what is not, ignoring the plain logic, (not to mention, much of Scripture, none of which I can find denies causation).

There is a logic with God erasing evil. Erasing evil we also know is morally right. You know Sodom, none righteous, none! There is also an important message by the story of the flood. I don't see the logic with creating someone for destruction, which our sense of moral also says is wrong, or what important message it would bring.

When it comes to the flood I believe it has a figurative tone as with Sodom and Gomorrah. Even I believe there was some kind of flood I don't take the story to be 100% accurate in an historic sense.

I think you too by your gut feeling know it would be wrong to create a person for a purpose, which he can't possibly avoid, and still hold him accountable for that purpose. We all know it by our sense of moral, given us by God.

I judge God by His own standard. He cannot do what is morally wrong.

If it is caused, then it is predetermined. Or it is chance and not caused, which is self-contradictory. Therefore, it impinges on the theory. If there is such a thing as libertarian freewill, whatever you mean by it, it is caused. If God knew, and created anyway, he caused it. If he did not know, then he is not omniscient, in spite of what Open Theists say.

If God knew I would go steal a car. I don't see the logic that God caused it. Sure He caused me the ability to make choices, and libertarian free ones if I'm correct.

 

[zoidar]

I don't think God has shown you the depths of the depravity of 'the old man'. Just saying. And he doesn't have to for you to be saved.

But beyond that, I don't see it possible that your decision for Christ has any real validity apart from the Spirit of God in you making that decision in you. Only God knows what that commitment is for and what it entails and how it is possible. Only God has the integrity to make it committed. And only God can bring it to pass, and take it to completion. The fact we also do so is evidence of God doing it in us. If it is only me doing it, "The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror. The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." — Isaiah 28: 19-22

I think it's a misunderstanding that we are so depraved that in everything we do there is sin and evil. That is how it was put to me by a Lutheran teacher. He said even when you set out to do God, sin is within your "good". It's just not what I see in the teachings of Jesus. Sure sometimes it is like that, that we do good with selfish motives etc, but it's not always like that and certainly shouldn't be or have to be.

I take it very seriously what Jesus says. We can love God with all our heart, mind and soul and our neighbour as ourselves.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Sorry, I been gone from here; I just now got this. Looking foward to your quick return...

I don’t think you are as I’ve been reading all your trolling that past few days and throwing people under the bus. I’ve had better enemies then so- called friends . When I’m back in the forum I’ll deal with all the hypocrisy. I’m sure I’ll get banned but I don’t really care . I have this welcoming forum with no hypocrisy and my own website that’s up and running now . And unlike the unfriendly / biased carm this cite doesn’t show favoritism but it also will not stand for bullying like on carm when all the Calvinists Gang up like a pack of wolves and get a free pass and all non Calvinists that try to defend themselves get automatically banned . In the real world it’s called censorship and now being allowed one’s freedom of religious speech and expression.

 

[ReverendRV]

I don’t think you are as I’ve been reading all your trolling that past few days and throwing people under the bus. I’ve had better enemies then so- called friends . When I’m back in the forum I’ll deal with all the hypocrisy. I’m sure I’ll get banned but I don’t really care . I have this welcoming forum with no hypocrisy and my own website that’s up and running now . And unlike the unfriendly / biased carm this cite doesn’t show favoritism but it also will not stand for bullying like on carm when all the Calvinists Gang up like a pack of wolves and get a free pass and all non Calvinists that try to defend themselves get automatically banned . In the real world it’s called censorship and now being allowed one’s freedom of religious speech and expression.

God bless you and yours. I'll be looking for you...

 

[QvQ]

I judge God by His own standard. He cannot do what is morally wrong.

It was morally wrong to create evil.
Was there something beyond God that created evil? Is God merely a demigod battling Satan while there is Quiet Beyond that is neither Good nor Evil, another all powerful god who allows the entire play to go on?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

God bless you and yours. I'll be looking for you...

Now you are trolling pastor Doug . Shameful . I’m glad I’m seeing your true colors this week . It’s been very enlightening to say the least . It reminds me of the Eddie Haskell character on leave in to beaver .