What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

Lol, fair enough. Maybe I am crazy.

And for what it's worth, I think your sarcasm font was pretty plain in most instances.

The deficiency is in Arminianism, not in your representation of it, although that, shall we say, wasn't exactly well done. But no matter. Arminianism doesn't present a Gospel that is entirely of Grace, and there's the main problem with it. There are many other related problems, but I think that's the most obvious, or easiest to point out.

What? Me sarcastic?!!

Well schoolboy I did suggest you make a anti-Armi thread and said I would carry the Armi torch. Feel Free to add a word or two from the Bible in support of the whateveritis you wrote above.

Kinda bogus to knock my Arminian presentations after you posted that junk

(I`m really a Paul guy. I just do the Armi for fun.)

 

[RickReads]

Funny you think those are wrecking balls. I see no way they differ with what I said. Nor that anything you said defeats them, if that is what you mean.


Fwiw, that isn't what Spurgeon said, nor is it all he said. You misquote it, and take it out of context, in your second post on the matter here. Spurgeon is right, that it is ridiculous to bid someone to believe and be saved if they already are saved and believe. There is no point in preaching two different Gospels.

You may find it amazing that a Calvinist or Reformed believer would say this, but it is altogether possible —and in fact, not unusual— that a person is regenerated during or as part of God's use of the Gospel preached. We like to use time-sequence of events as accurate waypoints for causation, but God does not think that way. If you remember, @clare showed the line of causation, and said something along the lines that time sequence is not the way to assess it.

The heart at enmity with God is unable to choose God, so God changes the heart. This we tend to attribute to human will, but God says it is NOT by human will. He does show us that the change is made by the Spirit of God 'installed' (my word for it) inside us. This IS the regeneration; whether we want to say it is a result of his doing, or it IS his doing, or it is even simply HIM in us, it is God's and not ours. Because, perhaps even simultaneous with all other effects, (i.e. salvific faith, true repentance, the desire for righteousness and all obediences), comes our sealing, our salvation, our imputation of righteousness, and all the rest, (and sooner or later, I should say, even our awareness and self-motivated pursuit of any or all the above), the time sequence as we perceive it and our assessment by our notice of and reactions to events or feelings are of no consequence as to how they happened, or to what caused what. For this, we depend on Scripture.

What amazes me is how desperately one wants to cling to at least some small way that grace is not entirely of God.

Once again I invite you to share a word or two from the Bible in support of your points.

 

[RickReads]

Question: How is Regeneration?
Answer: Regeneration is something that happens when you are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, in fulfillment of the Old Coventant promise for the New Covenant believer, in which the believer in Christ is made into a Born Again, new creature, with a new heart that desires to do the will of God, having been washed and cleansed of their sins by the blood of Christ.

Question: Isn’t it indeed true that one who is regenerated is also saved?
Answer: Yes, but Calvinists reject this statement. They believe that fallen man must first be regenerated in order to then have access to the faith needed to repent, believe and become saved. Arminians agree that man is fallen and is desperately in need of the enabling grace to repent, believe and be saved, but not that God preemptively provides regeneration (which is solely a gift to the saved), but rather that God stimulates the lost (i.e. Jesus “seeks” (Luke 19:10), “knocks” (Revelation 3:20) and “draws” (John 12:32) with the “living and active” (Hebrews 4:12), supernatural “power” of the word of God (Romans 1:16), which produces “faith” in its hearers (Romans 10:17), through which we are made born again (1st Peter 2:23), together with the Holy Spirit who “convicts” (John 16:8), “pricks” (Acts 26:14), “pierces” (Acts 2:37) and “opens” hearts to receive Him. (Acts 16:14)

Ephesians 1:3: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.”
So for non-Christians, that is, unbelievers, the unregenerate, there is not one “spiritual blessing” available, as “spiritual” blessings are absolutely exclusive to only Christians, that is, only believers and only the regenerate. But this presents a significant problem for Calvinism, because if regeneration is a “spiritual blessing,” and which is exclusive to only Christians, and if the spiritual blessing of regeneration is an absolutely critical, essential and necessary requirement for unbelievers to become believers, then how do unbelievers become Christians, if they don’t have access to the necessary spiritual blessing to make it possible? Therefore, Calvinism has a mechanical flaw.
Since “spiritual blessings” are only available to Christians, and regeneration is a “spiritual blessing,” it follows that only Christians have access to regeneration. Thus, regeneration is only for those in Christ, that is, Christians.

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[RickReads]

@Mark Quayle I am very bad at defending Arminianism?

 

[John Mullally]

The heart at enmity with God is unable to choose God, so God changes the heart. This we tend to attribute to human will, but God says it is NOT by human will. He does show us that the change is made by the Spirit of God 'installed' (my word for it) inside us. This IS the regeneration; whether we want to say it is a result of his doing, or it IS his doing, or it is even simply HIM in us, it is God's and not ours. Because, perhaps even simultaneous with all other effects, (i.e. salvific faith, true repentance, the desire for righteousness and all obediences), comes our sealing, our salvation, our imputation of righteousness, and all the rest, (and sooner or later, I should say, even our awareness and self-motivated pursuit of any or all the above), the time sequence as we perceive it and our assessment by our notice of and reactions to events or feelings are of no consequence as to how they happened, or to what caused what. For this, we depend on Scripture.

Calvinists are stuck with adding an event where God coercively changes the heart of His foreordinated ones to cancel their 'Total Depravity' so that they can respond to the preaching of the Gospel. Given their Total Depravity doctrine that has to be included for anyone to be saved. If you don't like that too bad - as it was all decreed long ago. Christ's Atonement, God's Mercy, and God's Grace are very limited - so don't be offended if you aren't offered any. Your very existence may be due to His desire to receive glory from your destruction (I wish I was making this up).

The good news is that that is not supported from the Bible. Ezekiel talks about getting a new heart and spirit and it comes after repentance.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
​

The conjunction "and" places "get yourself a new heart and a new spirit" as resulting from "Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed". Its the same order in the NT, first repent in response to the Gospel and then get a new heart (also referred to as Spirit).

In Ephesians 1:13, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit after hearing and believing the word of truth. There is no mention of another earlier work of the Holy Spirit where He coercively changes our heart to enable us to believe the word of truth.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
​

Although Romans 3:11 says that men do not seek God, the Holy Spirit seeks us and draws us (not irresistibly per Acts 7:51). When we respond to the Gospel in repentance, we receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,​

 

[zoidar]

There are multitudes of such examples, people who are under the impression that it is their 'acceptance', the virtue of their decision, that makes all the difference. I have a tendency not to answer, not only because of the cacophony of resistant voices that will join the fray against me, in the presence of a new believer, but because of the fact that the very mindset of most new believers cannot conceive of the thing I hope to convey.

Even though I think very highly of you, compared to most who see problems with Calvinism, as you come across generally even-tempered and non-arrogant, and possessing of a willingness to consider multiple angles and minds, even you demonstrate a mindset that is unable to consider the will of man as actually incapable of anything apart from God's purpose and actions. Thus I don't think they, or you, or the new believer, likely to get a lot out of what I would say to such a person.

But I will try to say it as best as I can, without going on too long: My concern has for quite a few years now, not been a question of whether I am one of those who will be in Heaven. That has been overrun with the joy of knowing that God is altogether pleased with the work of his hands, with his particular creation, with what he has done (which is also what he is doing), and the confidence that he will complete what he has begun, and the anticipation of seeing him as he is, and knowing him as I am known. These things (and other related things) are the focus, or to say it more accurately, HE is the focus —this life and the next are about him, not me, and not about my safety.

When I say, "the confidence that he will complete what he has begun" I expect that you (or those more antagonistic than you) will protest, "but how do you know whether he has begun it?". I say, the same way anyone knows: It is not by the integrity or sincerity of one's asking Jesus into their heart that they are saved, but by the work of God. But the witness and comfort of the Spirit of God to my spirit is undeniable at this point.

This reminds me King David's situation, where after he takes a census, which was evil in God's sight for him to do, God gives him a choice of judgement upon Israel by famine, or by their enemies, or by the hand of God; and David said, "Let me fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into human hands.” I am at God's mercy, regardless, as to my eternal destiny; I say it is good that God is the one to choose, as my choices are stupid, helpless, ignorant and self-deceived, but God's choosing is full of mercy. I don't even really know what I am choosing when I choose, but only how things look to me at that moment.

Thank you for kind words about me! It's when I feel "threatened" I can lash out a bit, but I try to stay calm and be objective. It seems like you really have thought through what you believe and that it helps you deal with life. That is of course good a thing. And you seem like a good guy as well.

I think that is a word of encouragement that God will complete what he has begun in you. It's a bit like the "no one can snatch you out of His hands" - kind of a verse. We need to hear that when struggeling in faith.

I haven't bought any theology straight off, like Calvinism, Lutheranism, Catholicism ...and I think it makes it tougher for you as a believer. I wrestle a lot with Scripture, and sometimes I just want to buy the finished package if you know what I mean, and if I would, it would probably be Lutheranism. But since I have found what I believe are errors, it's hard to buy all of it, even I sometimes like to.

 

[zoidar]

Could you flesh that out a little?

What do you find to be not Biblical?

That God has decreed everything that happens, even sinful behavior.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

I agree with AVB 2 on this one. These false prophets in 2 Peter 2 having at one time “escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" means for that time they did not qualify as unsaved because they escaped “the influence of the prince of the power of the air” through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Doesn't make any difference how many agree with whoever, a false prophet is and will always be a false prophet as those in 2 Peter: 10Such punishment is specially reserved for those who indulge the corrupt desires of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and self-willed, they are unafraid to slander glorious beings. 11Yet not even angels, though greater in strength and power, dare to bring such slanderous charges against them before the Lord.12These men are like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be captured and destroyed. They blaspheme in matters they do not understand, and like such creatures, they too will be destroyed. 13The harm they will suffer is the wages of their wickedness.

They consider it a pleasure to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deception as they feast with you. 14Their eyes are full of adultery; their desire for sin is never satisfied; they seduce the unstable. They are accursed children with hearts trained in greed.15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his transgression by a donkey, otherwise without speech, that spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18With lofty but empty words, they appeal to the sensual passions of the flesh and entice those who are just escaping from others who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity. For a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
As in v21, knowing is a far cry from having shared in the way of righteousness.
A saint is not ever called a dog, and one is never sealed unto the day of redemption and unsealed, to be unsealed would contradict that the Holy Spirit would not have known a person would not endure unto the end, OUTRAGEOUS! John 8:30 As Jesus spoke these things, many believed in Him. 31So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

1 Cor 11:19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

 

[d taylor]

I said prior to creation and the angels were created. But thanks for your comment anyways.

When the word creation is used, it is always understood in reference to Genesis 1. If you wanted to add angles into the word creation, and to be clear in your comment as to what you were saying. Saying before the creation of the angels there was no sin, would have better been understood.

 

[Clare73]

I think Hebrews 6:4-12 should be taken as a warning.

Keeping in mind that Hebrews is to newly professing Hebrew Christians, who were thinking of returning to Judaism, for whatever reason, and were being warned that to do so would be to reject the only sacrifice for sin, proving they were tares and, therefore, they would die with their sin unforgiven and remain condemned (Romans 5:18; John 3:18).

 

[RickReads]

Keeping in mind that Hebrews is to newly professing Hebrew Christians, who were thinking of returning to Judaism, for whatever reason, and were being warned that to do so would be to reject the only sacrifice for sin, proving they were tares and, therefore, they would die with their sin unforgiven and remain condemned (Romans 5:18; John 3:18).

Judaism didn't exist until after the Talmud was written.

 

[Clare73]

I kinda overlooked this earlier. Apparently, you don't understand Calvinism any better than you understand Arminianism. Maybe you should sit down before you read the quotes.

Calvinist, R.C. Sproul, writes: “The Reformed view of predestination teaches that before a person can choose Christ his heart must be changed. He must be born again.” (Chosen By God, p.72, emphasis mine)
Sproul adds: “A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ Our nature is so corrupt, the power of sin so great, that unless God does a supernatural work in our souls we will never choose Christ.” (Chosen By God, pp.72-73, emphasis mine)
However, not all Calvinists agree:
Calvinist, Charles Spurgeon, explains: “If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate.

You are special Mark. I normally won't repeat myself and I already threw these wrecking balls earlier in this thread.

Precisely. . .

Regeneration --> faith --> remission of sin (salvation) --> justification (declared righteous) --> sonship

are in reality close to simultaneous, but for order of effect, they are stated as occurring above,
it all beginning where Jesus says it does in John 3:3-8, with the rebirth by the sovereign will of God the Holy Spirit before the unregenerate can even see anything spiritual (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14), much less receive and believe.

And this is how it can look:

A spiritually dead man hears the gospel, something in him quickens (new birth), what he hears has meaning, he wants more of it, his heart is moved to respond, believe and repent.

Now let's all try to represent regeneration accurately in the future.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I'm still a bit mystified by your comment, that Calvinism has this "blinding aspect" in that kind of case. I mean, it is not a particularly Calvinistic view, that of "eternal separation from God". I remember hearing that one for the first time in Bible college, where someone was claiming that Hell was not a place, but rather, "eternal separation from God". I disagree wholeheartedly that it is only that. I'm not at all sure that it is even quite true, even apart from the other things that are true about that place and that state, since, at least to my thinking, if God was to withdraw his hand entirely, the person would altogether cease to exist

I'm not sure there are many Calvinists that hold to that notion, though I suppose it is possible some do.

which denominational context is your frame of reference?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think Hebrews 6:4-12 should be taken as a warning.

You seem to think that the warning to the Elect (and the presumably Elect) implies the ability to fail, i.e. to fall away and lose your salvation. No more so than the command to the lost implies the ability to obey.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I agree with AVB 2 on this one. These false prophets in 2 Peter 2 having at one time “escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" means for that time they did not qualify as unsaved because they escaped “the influence of the prince of the power of the air” through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

NOBODY escapes the influence of the evil one. Maybe you could rephrase that.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Mark Quayle]

And if you pay special attention to 6: 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned. **Pay special attention to what is said now in context with the above verses:** 9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Context is all important.

Perseverance of the saints. Good post.

 

[RickReads]

Precisely. . .and this is how it can look:

A spiritually dead man hears the gospel, something in him quickens (new birth), what he hears has meaning, he wants more of it, his heart is moved to respond, believe and repent.

According to you a spiritually dead person can't hear the gospel, a position you have attempted to defend throughout this thread.

What you describe now is the Arminian view albeit it is the correct one.

FYI the something in him that quickens is the Holy Spirit. You might try to learn more about it if you are going to profess Paulism as you do.

 

[Clare73]

You seem to think that the warning to the Elect (and the presumably Elect) implies the ability to fail, i.e. to fall away and lose your salvation. No more so than the command to the lost implies the ability to obey.

Keeping in mind that warnings are one of the ways God preserves the regenerate, who heed the warnings, while the unregenerate do not.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Calvinists are stuck with adding an event where God coercively changes the heart of His foreordinated ones to cancel their 'Total Depravity' so that they can respond to the preaching of the Gospel. Given their Total Depravity doctrine that has to be included for anyone to be saved. If you don't like that too bad - as it was all decreed long ago. Christ's Atonement, God's Mercy, and God's Grace are very limited - so don't be offended if you aren't offered any. Your very existence may be due to His desire to receive glory from your destruction (I wish I was making this up).

The good news is that that is not supported from the Bible. Ezekiel talks about getting a new heart and spirit and it comes after repentance.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
​

The conjunction "and" places "get yourself a new heart and a new spirit" as resulting from "Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed". Its the same order in the NT, first repent in response to the Gospel and then get a new heart (also referred to as Spirit).

In Ephesians 1:13, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit after hearing and believing the word of truth. There is no mention of another earlier work of the Holy Spirit where He coercively changes our heart to enable us to believe the word of truth.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
​

Although Romans 3:11 says that men do not seek God, the Holy Spirit seeks us and draws us (not irresistibly per Acts 7:51). When we respond to the Gospel in repentance, we receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,​

Calvinists are stuck with adding an event where God coercively changes the heart

Can you show how God regenerating a corrupt and spiritually dead will is coercion? Were you coerced to be born? How is it, then, that changing your will (being born again) is coercion?

And how is considering regeneration as the logically sequenced beginning of a new life in Christ, rather than an effect of "accepting Jesus" accomplished by the spiritually dead, "adding" anything? Are you saying that what the Calvinist/ Reformed refer to as "regeneration" is a different thing from what the Arminian believes it to be? You might be onto something!