What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

I agree with AVB 2 on this one. These false prophets in 2 Peter 2 having at one time “escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" means for that time they did not qualify as unsaved because they escaped “the influence of the prince of the power of the air” through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

They were tares, not wheat. . .they were goats, not sheep. . .in the kingdom but not of the kingdom. . .in the visible church, but not in the invisible church (body of Christ).

 

[Mark Quayle]

What? Me sarcastic?!!

Well schoolboy I did suggest you make a anti-Armi thread and said I would carry the Armi torch. Feel Free to add a word or two from the Bible in support of the whateveritis you wrote above.

Kinda bogus to knock my Arminian presentations after you posted that junk

(I`m really a Paul guy. I just do the Armi for fun.)

Just for the sake of curiosity, why "schoolboy"?

 

[enoob57]

Jesus said unless we become like them we cannot seethe kingdom.

Children sin they are not accountable till reach understanding and become willful sinners... What Jesus meant in that verse is that we who are born again have absolutely no idea of what is promised us but will, because of trust in the One Who promises, trade all that is here for that promise...

 

[zoidar]

Keeping in mind that warnings are one of the ways God preserves the regenerate, who heed the warnings, while the unregenerate do not.

A warning in life is never a guarantee that anyone will heed the warning, but you think it's different with the Bible?

 

[Clare73]

Question: How is Regeneration?
Answer: Regeneration is something that happens when you are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, in fulfillment of the Old Coventant promise for the New Covenant believer, in which the believer in Christ is made into a Born Again, new creature, with a new heart that desires to do the will of God, having been washed and cleansed of their sins by the blood of Christ.
Question: Isn’t it indeed true that one who is regenerated is also saved?

Yes, it's a one-package deal. . .it is all a continuous process, the regenerated always believe, the regenerated are always saved, the regenerated's sins are always remitted, the regenerated are always justified, the regenerated are always adopted as sons. . .

Regeneration --> faith --> remission of sin (salvation) --> justification (declared righteous) --> sonship

are in reality close to simultaneous, but for order of effect, they are stated as occurring above,
it all beginning where Jesus says it does in John 3:3-8, with the rebirth by the sovereign will of God the Holy Spirit before the unregenerate can even see anything spiritual (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14), much less receive and believe.

Answer: Yes, but Calvinists reject this statement. They believe that fallen man must first be regenerated in order to then have access to the faith needed to repent, believe and become saved. Arminians agree that man is fallen and is desperately in need of the enabling grace to repent, believe and be saved, but not that God preemptively provides regeneration (which is solely a gift to the saved), but rather that God stimulates the lost (i.e. Jesus “seeks” (Luke 19:10), “knocks” (Revelation 3:20) and “draws” (John 12:32) with the “living and active” (Hebrews 4:12), supernatural “power” of the word of God (Romans 1:16), which produces “faith” in its hearers (Romans 10:17), through which we are made born again (1st Peter 2:23), together with the Holy Spirit who “convicts” (John 16:8), “pricks” (Acts 26:14), “pierces” (Acts 2:37) and “opens” hearts to receive Him. (Acts 16:14)

Ephesians 1:3: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.”
So for non-Christians, that is, unbelievers, the unregenerate, there is not one “spiritual blessing” available, as “spiritual” blessings are absolutely exclusive to only Christians, that is, only believers and only the regenerate. But this presents a significant problem for Calvinism, because if regeneration is a “spiritual blessing,” and which is exclusive to only Christians, and if the spiritual blessing of regeneration is an absolutely critical, essential and necessary requirement for unbelievers to become believers, then how do unbelievers become Christians, if they don’t have access to the necessary spiritual blessing to make it possible? Therefore, Calvinism has a mechanical flaw.
Since “spiritual blessings” are only available to Christians, and regeneration is a “spiritual blessing,” it follows that only Christians have access to regeneration. Thus, regeneration is only for those in Christ, that is, Christians.

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[Mark Quayle]

which denominational context is your frame of reference?

Frame of reference for what? The society into which I was born and in which I was raised?Non-denom, though I suppose I could say, Protestant, evangelistic, fundamentalist, Arminian-leaning, Wesleyan mentality (but not the "Second Work of Grace" teaching), Southern Methodist style, Dispensationalist teaching. And the Bible College of my reference was definitely non-denom.

What is your frame of reference?

 

[Clare73]

A warning in life is never a guarantee that anyone will heed the warning, but you think it's different with the Bible?

It is to those in whom the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of their inheritance in Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14)

 

[zoidar]

Yes, it's a one-package deal. . .it is all a continuous process, the regenerated always believe, the regenerated are always saved, the regenerated's sins are always remitted, the regenerated are always justified, the regenerated are always adopted as sons. . .

Regeneration --> faith --> remission of sin (salvation) --> justification (declared righteous) --> sonship

are in reality close to simultaneous, but for order of effect, they are stated as occurring above,
it all beginning where Jesus says it does in John 3:3-8, with the rebirth by the sovereign will of God the Holy Spirit before the unregenerate can even see anything spiritual (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14), much less receive and believe.

You say "close to simultaneous". We believe it is simultaneous.

 

[Clare73]

Just for the sake of curiosity, why "schoolboy"?

I'm thinkin' he sees himself as much older than you. . .

 

[Clare73]

You say "close to simultaneous". We believe it is simultaneous.

That works. . .

 

[zoidar]

Just for the sake of curiosity, why "schoolboy"?

I know there is an arm wrestler with the nick "schoolboy". Maybe it has something to do with that?

 

[Clare73]

Once again I invite you to share a word or two from the Bible in support of your points.

Which points did you have in mind that he has not?

That all are born condemned by Adam's sin?. . .see Romans 5:18.

That God predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies in accordance with his foreknowedge (purpose and decree before time)?. . .see Romans 8:29-30.

That man is incapable of anything spiritual prior to regeneration? . . .see John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8;
1 Corinthians 2:14.

That regeneration must come first? . . .see John 3:3-8.

That salvation is from the wrath of God?. . .see Romans 5:9.

Any other points in mind that he has not "supported from the Bible?"

 

[Mark Quayle]

Question: How is Regeneration?
Answer: Regeneration is something that happens when you are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, in fulfillment of the Old Coventant promise for the New Covenant believer, in which the believer in Christ is made into a Born Again, new creature, with a new heart that desires to do the will of God, having been washed and cleansed of their sins by the blood of Christ.

Question: Isn’t it indeed true that one who is regenerated is also saved?
Answer: Yes, but Calvinists reject this statement. They believe that fallen man must first be regenerated in order to then have access to the faith needed to repent, believe and become saved. Arminians agree that man is fallen and is desperately in need of the enabling grace to repent, believe and be saved, but not that God preemptively provides regeneration (which is solely a gift to the saved), but rather that God stimulates the lost (i.e. Jesus “seeks” (Luke 19:10), “knocks” (Revelation 3:20) and “draws” (John 12:32) with the “living and active” (Hebrews 4:12), supernatural “power” of the word of God (Romans 1:16), which produces “faith” in its hearers (Romans 10:17), through which we are made born again (1st Peter 2:23), together with the Holy Spirit who “convicts” (John 16:8), “pricks” (Acts 26:14), “pierces” (Acts 2:37) and “opens” hearts to receive Him. (Acts 16:14)

Ephesians 1:3: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.”
So for non-Christians, that is, unbelievers, the unregenerate, there is not one “spiritual blessing” available, as “spiritual” blessings are absolutely exclusive to only Christians, that is, only believers and only the regenerate. But this presents a significant problem for Calvinism, because if regeneration is a “spiritual blessing,” and which is exclusive to only Christians, and if the spiritual blessing of regeneration is an absolutely critical, essential and necessary requirement for unbelievers to become believers, then how do unbelievers become Christians, if they don’t have access to the necessary spiritual blessing to make it possible? Therefore, Calvinism has a mechanical flaw.
Since “spiritual blessings” are only available to Christians, and regeneration is a “spiritual blessing,” it follows that only Christians have access to regeneration. Thus, regeneration is only for those in Christ, that is, Christians.

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Wrong again. The author assumes necessarily time sequence where only causal sequence is implied.

Arminianism has yet to explain how Grace is possessing of some modicum of human ability to submit to God apart from the work of God, that is, it has yet to explain how it is possible that some people "accept Christ" while others do not.

The Arminian pretends a work of Grace, in which the work of man adds to the work of God for a greater or more complete effect than the work of God alone.

 

[Clare73]

Calvinists are stuck with adding an event where
God coercively changes the heart of His foreordinated ones

You misrepresent his case. . .for the regenerate freely chose to believe, just as the unregenerate freely chose not to believe.

Man's will does not operate in a vacuum. . .it is governed by the disposition; i.e., what man prefers, likes.
God works in the disposition, giving man to prefer his will, which man then voluntarily and freely chooses because he prefers it, just as the unregenerate man voluntarily and freely chooses what he prefers (1 Corinthians 2:14).

God does not violate man's free will, God uses it to bring man freely and willingly to himself. (John 6:65)

to cancel their 'Total Depravity' so that they can respond to the preaching of the Gospel. Given their Total Depravity doctrine that has to be included for anyone to be saved. If you don't like that too bad - as it was all decreed long ago. Christ's Atonement, God's Mercy, and God's Grace are very limited - so don't be offended if you aren't offered any. Your very existence may be due to His desire to receive glory from your destruction (I wish I was making this up).

The good news is that that is not supported from the Bible. Ezekiel talks about getting a new heart and spirit and it comes after repentance.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
​

The conjunction "and" places "get yourself a new heart and a new spirit" as resulting from "Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed". Its the same order in the NT, first repent in response to the Gospel and then get a new heart (also referred to as Spirit).

In Ephesians 1:13, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit after hearing and believing the word of truth. There is no mention of another earlier work of the Holy Spirit where He coercively changes our heart to enable us to believe the word of truth.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
​

Although Romans 3:11 says that men do not seek God, the Holy Spirit seeks us and draws us (not irresistibly per Acts 7:51). When we respond to the Gospel in repentance, we receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,​

 

[Clare73]

That God has decreed everything that happens, even sinful behavior.

What do you make of Romans 9:18-24, being true to its words, where sin serves God's purpose?

 

[Mark Quayle]

@Mark Quayle I am very bad at defending Arminianism?

There have been multitudes of defenders of Arminianism, or at least of Arminian-leaning points of view. You're not the worst by far. But Arminianism in the end is indefensible, scripturally. Every passage you use as a defense of Arminianism is equally (or more) useful as a defense of Calvinism, but you can't see it, because what you extrapolate [your version of] Calvinism to imply is what you think Calvinism is.

 

[zoidar]

Wrong again. The author assumes necessarily time sequence where only causal sequence is implied.

Arminianism has yet to explain how Grace is possessing of some modicum of human ability to submit to God apart from the work of God, that is, it has yet to explain how it is possible that some people "accept Christ" while others do not.

The Arminian pretends a work of Grace, in which the work of man adds to the work of God for a greater or more complete effect than the work of God alone.

Calvinists have a not that different of a problem. Why God "accepts" Jimmy, but not Clark?

What I heard is it's because God chose Jimmy, but not Clark. It's just that it doesn't explain why it wasn't Clark He chose instead of Jimmy. Was Jimmy better than Clark? Chance?

 

[Clare73]

Judaism didn't exist until after the Talmud was written.

"Judaism" is used there to refer to the regulations of the Mosaic covenant.

 

[zoidar]

What do you make of Romans 9:18-24, being true to its words, where sin serves God's purpose?

God can use sin for His purpose, it just doesn't mean God decreed it.

 

[Clare73]

According to you a spiritually dead person can't hear the gospel,

He physically hears the words if he is not deaf, but it has no meaning until the Holy Spirit quickens the words to him in the new birth.

The order of effective causality has been presented to you.
No need to keep misrepresenting the process.

a position you have attempted to defend throughout this thread.

What you describe now is the Arminian view albeit it is the correct one.

FYI the something in him that quickens is the Holy Spirit.

Ya' think?

You might try to learn more about it if you are going to profess Paulism as you do.

Biblical assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.