What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

@RickReads quoted misput as saying:
"misput said: ↑
Rediculous response. The second link is actually a well-done Southern Baptist effort to slip Calvinism through the eye of the needle."



I'm sure it was a non-intended slip, to quote @misput as though he, and not you, had been the one who said "Rediculous response. The second link is actually a well-done Southern Baptist effort to slip Calvinism through the eye of the needle."

Was that you or someone you are quoting, who said, "Only the foolish try to explain it."? Is that your view on John 3, or what you think of those who try to understand anything about the Spirit, or just about where the Spirit goes and what it does, or what? I mean, after all, there is a reason Jesus said it to Nicodemus, and a reason it is in the context with John 3:16 et al, and a reason it is in the Bible. You can't just dismiss it with a careless flip of the wrist.

It was caused by the way Misput structured his post. the reply didn't even pick up his remarks.

 

[RickReads]

You sounded quite a bit like it was a game, a while back, when you sounded like Yosemite Sam. I thought you were getting all ready to wipe the floor with me, when I wished you "luck" in your endeavors.

Yes, I can see you don't consider [my] Calvinism a challenge to refute, as your efforts have yet to succeed in proving anything against it, in your refutations.

Well, I`m a kidder. Since my health has improved in recent months my sense of humor has returned to me and I haven't been trying to keep it in check because it's been a long road.

I think I have represented Arminianism pretty well. I`m not sure what you think the deficiency is.
Maybe ur crazy

 

[Clare73]

Well, I`m a kidder. Since my health has improved in recent months my sense of humor has returned to me and I haven't been trying to keep it in check because it's been a long road.

I think I have represented Arminianism pretty well. I`m not sure what you think the deficiency is.
Maybe ur crazy

Can you tell us what took you down?

 

[John Mullally]

To which I see Jesus' statement in Matthew 20:28 giving us to understand that "all" is "all without distinction," rather than "all without exception."

Still stuck, I see.

From the point of view of effectiveness, Christ ransom, although paid, is not always received. Peter says Christ's ransom was paid for false prophets, who nevertheless went to destruction.

Yes, there are tares among the wheat who, although they look like wheat, and are thought by some to be wheat, their apostasy proves they are not, and never were, for wheat never becomes a sare, a sheep never becomes a goat, and a goat never becomes a sheep.

I heard that Paul was the chief among sinners and an enemy of Christ before writing half of the NT. He was not a sheep in Acts 7.

If the false prophets in 2 Peter 2 were never His, how is it that they "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" for a time? It is true that any righteous deeds they did will be forgotten (Ezekiel 18:24).

 

[Clare73]

From the point of view of effectiveness, Christ ransom, although paid, is not always received. Peter says Christ's ransom was paid for false prophets, who nevertheless went to destruction.

I understand Peter to be speaking from the reference point of the tares who thought they were wheat and that the Lord had bought them.

I heard that the chief among sinners and an enemy of Christ became the "Apostle to the Gentiles".

Relevance to wheat and tares?

If the false prophets in 2 Peter 2 were never His, how is it that they "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" for a time?

The same way the tares who are in the kingdom (but not of the kingdom) escape them for a time.

It is true that any righteous deeds they did will be forgotten (Ezekiel 18:24).

Update. . .in the NT, no one in the whole world has ever been righteous by his deeds (Romans 3:9-10).

 

[RickReads]

Can you tell us what took you down?

It`s a long story. I`m crippled and have health issues. God is good though and I`m ok. I`m not the same grouchy person I was when I was around here before.

 

[AVB 2]

Actually, free will as presented in Scripture has "led" many to heaven.

Free will as presented in the Bible is the power to choose (execute) voluntarily, without external force or constraint.
However, free will does not operate in a vacuum. It is governed by the disposition, what one likes, prefers.
Therein is the problem, unregenerate man does not prefer God's will, he prefers self-will over God's will.

But God operates in the disposition, giving one to prefer his will, where the will then freely and voluntarily, without external force or constraint, chooses what it prefers--the very definition of free will as presented in Scripture.
Yes, Biblical free will has "led" many to heaven, by the operation of the Holy Spirit.

God does not violate the free will of man, God uses the free will of man to bring man freely to himself.

The word "free" means "not under the control or in the power of another" so in order for a man to have free will, his will cannot be under the control or in the power of another. All unsaved people are under the influence of "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.." (Eph 2:2) Romans 3:10-11 states unequivocally that "There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God."

We cannot seek for God, that is why God draws us (actually drags us) to Jesus. John 6:44 "“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." Man's free will is not free, will not seek for righteousness, will not understand and will never seek for God, ever. Our free will is evil and wicked. Eve had the free will choice in the garden to either choose God's will or her free will. I need not tell you what happened. EVERY time a man sins he exercises his free will, and never God's will.

 

[Clare73]

It`s a long story. I`m crippled and have health issues. God is good though and I`m ok. I`m not the same grouchy person I was when I was around here before.

Sorry to hear that. . .about your health, I mean.

Should I go easier on you?

 

[Clare73]

The word "free" means "not under the control or in the power of another" so in order for a man to have free will, his will cannot be under the control or in the power of another. All unsaved people are under the influence of "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.." (Eph 2:2) Romans 3:10-11 states unequivocally that "There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God."

We cannot seek for God, that is why God draws us (actually drags us) to Jesus. John 6:44 "“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." Man's free will is not free, will not seek for righteousness, will not understand and will never seek for God, ever. Our free will is evil and wicked. Eve had the free will choice in the garden to either choose God's will or her free will. I need not tell you what happened.
EVERY time a man sins he exercises his free will, and never God's will.

However, limited free will as we see it practiced in Scripture--ability to choose what one prefers, does exist, and is all that is required for moral responsibility.

 

[RickReads]

Sorry to hear that. . .about your health, I mean.

Should I go easier on you?

You should tape your mouth shut and sit down and listen to me.

 

[Clare73]

You should tape your mouth shut and sit down and listen to me.

Oops!. . .Groucho is back!

My mouth is shut, I am sitting down. . .two outa' three ain't bad!

 

[AVB 2]

Can a Calvinistic viewpoint really explain what love is? Kindness? Goodness?

You see a man in the street, do you have love for him? Why? God may not love him.

God's love is for all, it is "without partiality", it is the rejection of His love that God hates. God does not have a naughty and nice list, where He is the one who determines on whom he will be naughty and on whom he will be nice.

Is that "love"?

Ah yes, love. God loves "without partiality" and He loves absolutely everyone. Always has and always will, so what about the people who were the inhabitants of the Promised Land that God’s children were about to take over. The Promised Land was inhabited by the Canaanites, the Sidonians and the other descendants of theirs, the Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites, and the Hamathites? Also the Philistines, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Jebusites, the Elamites, the Kerethites, the Pathrusites, the Casluhites, and the Caphtorites? There were probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in these nineteen tribes.

Exodus 23:23 “For my angel will go before you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, Jebusites...And I will destroy them completely.” Love in action!

How about the Egyptians? What did God do to them?

Exodus 14:17 “And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they will charge in after the Israelites. My great glory will be displayed through Pharaoh and his troops, his chariots, and his charioteers.” Hebrews 11:29 “….they [Pharaoh and his troops, his chariots, and his charioteers] were all drowned.” I guess Pharaoh should have taught his men how to swim before taking on God.

Jeremiah 49:37 “The enemies [of the Elamites] will chase them with the sword until I [God] have destroyed them completely.” The love of the sword.

Eze 25:16 “Therefore, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will raise my fist of judgment against the land of the Philistines, (the Kerethites, Pathrusites, Casluhites, and the Caphtorites.) I will wipe out the and utterly destroy the people who live by the sea.” Lots of lovin going on here.

Psalm 11:5-6 “The LORD tests the righteous, but His soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. Let Him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.” More love comin down in rain of hot coals and scorching wind.

Psalm 21:8-10 “You [God] will capture all your enemies. Your strong right hand will seize all who hate you. You will throw them in a flaming furnace when you appear. The LORD will consume them in his anger; fire will devour them. You will wipe their children from the face of the earth; they will never have descendants.” No kids to love forevermore.

 

[John Mullally]

I understand Peter to be speaking from the reference point of the tares who thought they were wheat and that the Lord had bought them.

Peter did not say that "they thought the Lord bought them", he said "the Lord who bought them".

Relevance to wheat and tares?

There is no relevance, as the Epistles do not reference Jesus' parables.

Update. . .in the NT, no one in the whole world has ever been righteous by his deeds (Romans 3:9-10).

Where did I say anyone was justified by good deeds?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Actually Peter did not say "all" - but Paul did. And we already gone over that.

1 Timothy 2:1Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
​

Christ's ransom is not effective for all to whom it was made. As the ransom was paid for the false prophets of 2 Peter 2:1, but they are still on their way to destruction. So much for the L in TULIP - "Limited Atonement". The problem is not on God's end, as receiving requires faith.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.​

I agree that 2 Peter 2:20-22 is referring to the false prophets in 2 Peter 2:1. They actually knew Christ (not just professed) and were also redeemed for a period of time. Unbelievers do not escape the pollutions of the world.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.​

Just so I did not misunderstand you; are you saying that these false prophets were actually saved and then lost again?

 

[John Mullally]

Oops!. . .Groucho is back!

My mouth is shut, I am sitting down. . .two outa' three ain't bad!

I concur with that statement.

 

[RickReads]

Oops!. . .Groucho is back!

My mouth is shut, I am sitting down. . .two outa' three ain't bad!

“I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it.”
― Groucho Marx

 

[Clare73]

Peter did not say that "they thought the Lord bought them", he
said "the Lord who bought them".

I know. . .that's what "speaking from their reference points" means.

Where did I say anyone was justified by good deeds?

It is true that any righteous deeds they did will be forgotten (Ezekiel 18:24).

 

[John Mullally]

Just so I did not misunderstand you; are you saying that these false prophets were actually saved and then lost again?

"They have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" - what does that sound like to you?

 

[John Mullally]

Update. . .in the NT, no one in the whole world has ever been righteous by his deeds (Romans 3:9-10).

News Flash... I never said that anyone was justified by righteous deeds.

The False Prophets can expect to hear "I never knew you" even though 2 Peter 2:20 says they had knowledge of the Lord sufficient for them to escape the pollutions of the world. I find Ezekiel 18:24 & Matthew 7:22 to be a key in understanding that for those who forsake Him, any good fruit will be forgotten.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning​

 

[iwbswiaihl]

"They have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" - what does that sound like to you?

I take that to be you think they were once saved, and that is the purpose of my reply: Take notice of what is written in Jude about judgment on the ungodly:

3 Beloved, although I made every effort to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt it necessary to write and urge you to contend earnestly for the faith entrusted once for all to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Although you are fully aware of this, I want to remind you that after Jesus had delivered His people out of the land of Egypt, He destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling—these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day. 7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.8 Yet in the same way these dreamers defile their bodies, reject authority, and slander glorious beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 These men, however, slander what they do not understand, and like irrational animals, they will be destroyed by the things they do instinctively. 11 Woe to them! They have traveled the path of Cain; they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam; they have perished in Korah’s rebellion. 12These men are hidden reefs in your love feasts, shamelessly feasting with you but shepherding only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried along by the wind; fruitless trees in autumn, twice dead after being uprooted. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about them: “Behold, the Lord is coming with myriads of His holy ones 15 to execute judgment on everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of every ungodly act of wickedness and every harsh word spoken against Him by ungodly sinners.” 16 These men are discontented grumblers, following after their own lusts; their mouths spew arrogance; they flatter others for their own advantage. Hebrews 10:19-39 and 2 Peter 3:1-7
But you, beloved, remember what was foretold by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ 18 when they said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.”
19These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God as you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life.22 And indeed, have mercy on those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh.

Sorry this is so long, but necessary, the scriptures also teach that one will endure to the end if they are saved, otherwise they were never saved, Matt 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Matt 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Heb 3:14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls. Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; Luke 8:15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience. And I will close with Jesus own words to those in John 8 which would be great if you read this whole chapter when you can: 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

One last jewel: you may already know, but looking at an interlinear text which can be found on internet, it will show the tense of the words as one reads the scriptures and when a verse says the word believe, believes, as he who believes in Me will never perish, it is always in the present tense, saving faith is always present.