What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

SALVATION is surely of, by and through the Lord. But there is human responsibility to seek and serve Him with all of our heart, mind and soul. If that desire is not there I would not try assuring anyone they are saved. No fruit, not root.

Of course! And Calvinism claims no different.

 

[Mark Quayle]

People need to be taught the truth, not lies. If our eternity depended upon God’s decision, then all would be saved for God desires that all come to repentance.

So, are you saying that your eternal destiny depends upon whether your decision (not God's) is real or not? Do not your failings and sins stare daily in your face? Or have you learned to ignore that?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Call it what you will. I knew the doctrines of Paul long before I ever heard of the term Arminian.

Me too. What is your point?

 

[RickReads]

"Spiritual dead" is not in the Bible,

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

What Does the Bible Say About Spiritual Death?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Of course! And Calvinism claims no different.

I know that and my views have not changed with a situation like the one over there in your link. I was not implying otherwise.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Seems strange to me brother. If you believe Christ restored all the Creation to God as I do then what`s the beef with the understanding that the Propitiation is a provision offered to all people?

It's your indoctrination that blinds you.

One of the best illustrations I've ever read of how the legal restoration of all things to Christ works is shown in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, when Aslan gives himself up to the Witch, who doesn't understand the 'Deep Magic'. When I first read it as a child, I thought, God already owns and is in control of everything. Why this? What bind does she actually have on him? Or even on Edmund, for that matter!

I'm not going to try to teach you what I feel like I only barely begin to understand, but you would do well to see that what Christ accomplished on the Cross had far-reaching implications beyond just the salvation of souls. Sin is a horror that affects ALL of creation.

Oh, and again, my indoctrination was by those with Arminian-leaning tendencies, (I say, since you seem to have forgotten). I only learned what I have a long time later, and even then didn't know it was essentially Reformed Theology till relatively lately. I was not "indoctrinated" in Calvinism or Reformed Theology.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Kinda like trying to beat the entire varsity football team by yourself isn't it? I want to try out for a tackle position. I think I can get Hmm benched.

Hahaha!

Well, there's some very strong allies there, experienced fighters. And some who even don't want to appear to be taking sides, but rather to be whittling down bad debate points. And good for them!

But, if you will notice, all I referenced was the practicality matter.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There are both good and bad spiritual guides among all denominations. It's not just the theology.

True that! So how would you guide this poor fellow? I could identify with him when I was young.

 

[RickReads]

One of the best illustrations I've ever read of how the legal restoration of all things to Christ works is shown in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, when Aslan gives himself up to the Witch, who doesn't understand the 'Deep Magic'. When I first read it as a child, I thought, God already owns and is in control of everything. Why this? What bind does she actually have on him? Or even on Edmund, for that matter!

I'm not going to try to teach you what I feel like I only barely begin to understand, but you would do well to see that what Christ accomplished on the Cross had far-reaching implications beyond just the salvation of souls. Sin is a horror that affects ALL of creation.

Oh, and again, my indoctrination was by those with Arminian-leaning tendencies, (I say, since you seem to have forgotten). I only learned what I have a long time later, and even then didn't know it was essentially Reformed Theology till relatively lately. I was not "indoctrinated" in Calvinism or Reformed Theology.

Based on your testimony your family is not Arminian as they correctly have asserted to you.

 

[RickReads]

Hahaha!

Well, there's some very strong allies there, experienced fighters. And some who even don't want to appear to be taking sides, but rather to be whittling down bad debate points. And good for them!

But, if you will notice, all I referenced was the practicality matter.

For me, the salvation before your salvation and the theory of irresistible grace are deal-breakers.

 

[zoidar]

True that! So how would you guide this poor fellow? I could identify with him when I was young.

I will look closer into it. Maybe respond to him later if I know what to say.

I wonder what you would say as a Calvinist since you don't know Christ died for him. You can't say Christ died for him for an example, or you can but that would be dishonest.

 

[enoob57]

Yes and you can also observe the traits of Gods love in them. It is not either or.

The unique aspect of God is that He contains no darkness at all

1 John 1:5 (NKJV)
[5] This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

why this is important? It tells of His holiness and righteousness... then in order to dwell with him in unity and oneness we must also be so. That is the construct of why Jesus had to do as He did... only He could secure for us this future reality... all of mankind has sinned and the only sin Jesus was guilty of was ours...

 

[zoidar]

.

 

[zoidar]

Is this (that I've bolded above) an educated guess, or a preference, or do you have some hermeneutical or otherwise doctrinal basis for saying so, or what?

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

What Does the Bible Say About Spiritual Death?

I didn't mean that "spiritually dead/dead in your sins" only means you will die in your sins. It means your standing with God is wrong, you are lost and not saved and you will come under judgement, unless you repent. See the progidal son. He was dead in sin/"spiritually dead" before he repented.

Rick, I just meant that "spiritually dead" is not an expression of the Bible. If an Arminian use it in his teaching, he doesn't mean the same thing as a Calvinist, obviously. It's the same thing with God being sovereign. Everyone believes it, but all Christians don't mean the same thing.

 

[com7fy8]

You will probably find well-meaning Christians trying to reassure this poor fellow, who, had he been taught the Gospel that is entirely of Grace, would understand that his eternal destiny does not hinge on the integrity of his decision, but entirely on God's decision.

Our first post talks about the fact that "God is love". And ones claim He can't have our love unless we have free will to freely choose to love Him. But if I am in sin, how well can my free will have the right character to make a truly loving choice? And if I am equal truly with other sinful people, how can I somehow be superior to others so I choose Jesus while others do not?

And if God is love, why would He leave me on my own to make a decision which depends on my ability . . . in sin and slavery to Satan (Hebrews 2:14-15) . . . to make a choice in my sin-degraded will's ability?

I would need for God's grace to effect me and share His love's ability with me. By the way, I see we do make a choice, yes, but in sharing with God making our character capable of being humbly submissive with Him in us >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Plus, of course, we have how Jesus already has done on the cross all we could not do for ourselves, and now one needs for God also to do inside the person what he or she with sinful character could not get oneself to do.

So it is practical, then, how God's action of grace alone is able to cause what is truly enough for Him, in us. Or, we could glorify and worship our own free wills, couldn't we?

And so, God who is love has brought us out of our sin's inability and stupidity and stubbornness which guaranteed we would never on our own change to trust in Jesus.

But God in His love's almighty ability changed us to be humble to choose Jesus. We became humble, only because of sharing with Jesus who alone is truly humble . . . enough to please God with a choice which is truly humble

Because He is love who did not leave us on our own . . . like the loving parent who does not leave a foolish child at the mercy of the child's ability to make choices.

 

[RickReads]

I didn't mean that "spiritually dead/dead in your sins" only means you will die in your sins. It means your standing with God is wrong, you are lost and not saved and you will come under judgement, unless you repent. See the progidal son. He was dead in sin/"spiritually dead" before he repented.

Rick, I just meant that "spiritually dead" is not an expression of the Bible. If an Arminian use it in his teaching, he doesn't mean the same thing as a Calvinist, obviously. It's the same thing with God being sovereign. Everyone believes it, but all Christians don't mean the same thing.

I thought the references might give you more confidence in the expression which is descriptive of the living dead in this world.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

@RickReads @zoidar @John Mullally @iwbswiaihl @misput @Der Alte @Jesus is YHWH @Clare73 @Cormack @Hmm @d taylor @ByTheSpirit @Michael Collum @2PhiloVoid @TedT @Watchman1 @com7fy8 @NotreDame @public hermit

For the accusation that Reformed Theology is, at the least, impractical, here is a relevant thread. You will probably find well-meaning Christians trying to reassure this poor fellow, who, had he been taught the Gospel that is entirely of Grace, would understand that his eternal destiny does not hinge on the integrity of his decision, but entirely on God's decision.
Am I still blind? | Christian Forums

Reformed theology comes with a spiritual blinding aspect, so it wouldn't help with that type of case.

 

[zoidar]

I thought the references might give you more confidence in the expression which is descriptive of the living dead in this world.

Ah I see! Thanks!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Of course! And Calvinism claims no different.

Some more thoughts on our discussion as I was thinking more about the link. I never try and assure another person they are saved. There are to many warning passages in Scripture. There are things like strive to enter in the narrow gate, many who call Me Lord Lord shall not enter the kingdom, examine yourselves to see whether or not you are in the faith, its those who finish the race, those who endure until the end, those in the parables who remain faithful, finish what they started to build, have their lamps full, are ready in the middle of the night prepared for His coming at a time you do not know etc.......

So I just try and make my calling sure and remain faithful. I would never want to give another person a false security. They must believe the promises of God with their entire being. Assurance only comes by trusting and walking in Him and by knowing and experiencing God is faithful, Gods promises are rock solid and hungering and thirsting after Him. its a lifelong pursuit of a relationship just as it is with our spouse. That trust and love grows over the years to where it becomes that oneness described in Scripture. We can become one with Him just like we can with our spouse. There is a one to one correlation between the quality time we spend with our spouse and with Christ. That is how love grows and assurance too.

Sorry for the long post but I was just writing things down as I was thinking just now.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

People need to be taught the truth, not lies. If our eternity depended upon God’s decision, then all would be saved for God desires that all come to repentance.

That was addressed to believers, about believers, and Jesus not returning before all the saved had come in.