What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

@RickReads said, In your view of regeneration, salvation is an automated process of God. There is no need to hear the gospel and no need to repent and no need to make public confession. No need of anything because you are autogenerated. If your lottery isn't a winner you are thrown under the bus and have no hope from the moment you are in the womb.



I should also say that your claim that @Clare73 has the view of regeneration, where salvation is an automated process of God, is also very strange, for someone claiming to have grown up in or been indoctrinated in Calvinism. What in the world makes you think something is automated, if God is doing it?

It's outlandish enough, and humanocentric, to think that if a human isn't the one who causes it, that it is therefore automatic, but to claim that Calvinism believes that if God does it, it is somehow automatic, is not only not Calvinistic, but demonstrates mere deism at best, and denies the nature of God.

I think it to be an accurate description of Calvinist doctrine, and it was just an expression but by all means, keep building a strawman out of it. You are out of arguments.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"Spiritual dead" is not an expression of the Bible, but concerning "dead in your sins" Eph 2:1 which I think Clare was refering to we have:

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
— John 8:24

Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
— Ezekiel 3:20

But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.’”
— Luke 15:32

They are "dead in sins" since they have the wrong standing with God and will die in their sins. I don't know why/how to get to the conclusion that they are unable to respond...

Your Luke reference isn't quite like the other two: it is not saying "will die" but "was dead", which is quite a different thing. And there are a multitude of references, of which I expect @Clare73 will soon show you some more, but here's one for starters:

Ephesians 2:1-10, in which verse 1 says, "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,"

"Unable to respond" is not the point. Unable to "submit", unable to "please God", is directly from Romans 8.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Based on your testimony your family is not Arminian as they correctly have asserted to you.

I think I have told you, they don't claim to be even "Arminian-leaning". That is my description of them, or more accurately, of the whole general Christian (missionary kid) community into which I was born and in which I grew up.

Also, as you, too, have attested, Arminianism is not in most ways much different from Calvinism, except in one or two VERY different concepts or mindsets. And yes, those one or two do permeate the whole mindset of the Arminian or Arminian-leaning Christian, much as the sin nature corrupts every thought, deed, ability and intention of the unregenerate; and, (lest you protest too much), much as the indwelling of the Spirit of God changes the whole person.

 

[John Mullally]

You can definitely say Christ died for those who believe, no one argues against that. . .so believe!

Why not just say what the Bible says concerning Christ atonement? Peter does an excellent job of telling us that Christ died for all. He says that Christ paid for the worst of sinners - false prophets on there way to destruction who introduce heresies. If Christ paid for people introducing heresies, its safe to say he paid for your neighbor. Christ's payment is received through faith per Hebrews 4:1-2.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.​

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Someone said: And spiritually dead--complete inability to do anything spiritually, is what Jesus and Paul are presenting in John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14.
The dead don't reach out and grab the life preserver of the gospel. That is NT teaching.

So then, that is confusing, So being dead from having sinned after birth and committing sin, the Calvinist who is spiritually dead and has complete inability to do anything spiritual becomes alive in Christ before they ever repent and believe the gospel, it that what is being said? I must not be getting the point, that cannot be true!

Here is what I see coming straight out of the bible; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think it to be an accurate description of Calvinist doctrine, and it was just an expression but by all means, keep building a strawman out of it. You are out of arguments.

You may not have noticed that you contradicted yourself here. Or are you say that my claim that your supposed argument was a strawman, is my last possible claim against your position?

But your assertion that I am out of arguments seems a little odd at this point, since you have yet to prove any of my arguments wrong. Why should I even bother to proceed with further argumentation?

 

[RickReads]

Your Luke reference isn't quite like the other two: it is not saying "will die" but "was dead", which is quite a different thing. And there are a multitude of references, of which I expect @Clare73 will soon show you some more, but here's one for starters:

Ephesians 2:1-10, in which verse 1 says, "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,"

"Unable to respond" is not the point. Unable to "submit", unable to "please God", is directly from Romans 8.

Obviously, God's help is necessary but that isn't regeneration as it is presented in the gospel. If we are regenerated before being seeded with the gospel then we do not need to know about Jesus. No need for the gospel, no need for religion, no need to make the struggle, no need to refrain from sinning. Preservation of the saints will sustain me because I had the good fortune to be born a Puritan, albeit a Liberal Hedonistic one.

 

[Mark Quayle]

For me, the salvation before your salvation and the theory of irresistible grace are deal-breakers.

They are to most Arminians. But maybe you can describe both so I know what to deal with.

I admit to no "salvation before salvation" unless you refer to one's regeneration before he is changed altogether "upon arrival in Heaven", or unless you refer to one's regeneration as logically preceeding one's ability to repent and pursue Christ.

And, just to make sure, even though you claim to an upbringing of sorts in Calvinism: Irresistible Grace does not claim that grace cannot be resisted, but that the particular grace of regeneration of the elect is not up for resistance. God regenerates the person, or he does not. "There is no try", lol.

 

[RickReads]

You may not have noticed that you contradicted yourself here. Or are you say that my claim that your supposed argument was a strawman, is my last possible claim against your position?

But your assertion that I am out of arguments seems a little odd at this point, since you have yet to prove any of my arguments wrong. Why should I even bother to proceed with further argumentation?

You seem determined to make me get mean. I may have to repent and apologize to Cormack
again. I`m a former Calvinist so as a Calvinist I ask you, You say I got regenerated via irresistible grace and this occurred before I heard about Jesus. I have passed from death into life. Even Clare says this is so.

What do I need to practice Christianity for? It`s of no more use to me than Buddha is. I got my fire insurance.

 

[Clare73]

I don't get how you are injecting all that into my words but frankly, I don't like it and I will not be responding because, in my opinion, you are debating very dishonestly here.
You are tap-dancing around the fact that
your idea of regeneration is salvation without the need to practice Christianity.

Dead people don't practice anything, and the spiritually dead don't practice Christianity.
What part of John 3:3-8, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14 do you not understand?

You simply don't believe them. . .and that's above my paygrade.

You must be spiritually alive, not spiritually dead, to practice Christianity.

If it is possible to pass from death to life without even hearing the gospel then
I don't need to do anything of a religious nature.

Precisely. . .you do as much in your spiritual birth as you did in your physical birth. . .nothing. . .nada. . . zip. . .zero. . .

Once again, spiritually dead people cannot do anything of a spiritual nature.
They must be born (again) to do so, and no one has anything to do with their own birth. . .natural or spiritual.
Both births are 100% the work of their progenitors.

It's not complicated. . .

 

[RickReads]

Dead people don't practice anything, and the spiritually dead don't practice Christianity.
What part of John 3:3-8, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14 do you not understand?

You simply don't believe them. . .and that's above my paygrade.

You must be spiritually alive, not spiritually dead, to practice Christianity.

Correct. . .spiritually dead people cannot do anything of a spiritual nature.
They must be born (again) to do so, and no one has anything to do with their own birth. . .natural or spiritual.
Both births are 100% the work of their progenitors.

[/QUOTE]

The Calvinist opinion on regeneration is not what the Baptists normally consider orthodox.

What is regeneration according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

Gotquestions is a Baptist enterprise.

Regeneration: I Stand with the BF&M

 

[Clare73]

You seem determined to make me get mean. I may have to repent and apologize to Cormack
again. I`m a former Calvinist so as a Calvinist I ask you, You say I got regenerated via irresistible grace and this occurred before I heard about Jesus. I have passed from death into life. Even Clare says this is so.

Do you intentionally misrepresent what others state, or is it failure to understand plain language?

Go back and review my example in post #1592, and let me know if yours above is an accurate representation of what I presented.

 

[Clare73]

Dead people don't practice anything, and the spiritually dead don't practice Christianity.
What part of John 3:3-8, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14 do you not understand?

You simply don't believe them. . .and that's above my paygrade.

Please address these.

You must be spiritually alive, not spiritually dead, to practice Christianity.
Precisely. . .you do as much in your spiritual birth as you did in your physical birth. . .nothing. . .nada. . . zip. . .zero. . .
Once again, spiritually dead people cannot do anything of a spiritual nature.
They must be born (again) to do so, and no one has anything to do with their own birth. . .natural or spiritual.
Both births are 100% the work of their progenitors.
It's not complicated. . .

The Calvinist opinion on regeneration is not what the Baptists normally consider orthodox.
What is regeneration according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
Gotquestions is a Baptist enterprise.
Regeneration: I Stand with the BF&M

Non-responsive to my question. . .

 

[RickReads]

The Calvinist opinion on regeneration is not what the Baptists normally consider orthodox.
What is regeneration according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
Gotquestions is a Baptist enterprise.
Regeneration: I Stand with the BF&M

Non-responsive to my question. . .[/QUOTE]

Rediculous response. The second link is actually a well-done Southern Baptist effort to slip Calvinism through the eye of the needle.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I will look closer into it. Maybe respond to him later if I know what to say.

I wonder what you would say as a Calvinist since you don't know Christ died for him. You can't say Christ died for him for an example, or you can but that would be dishonest.

There are multitudes of such examples, people who are under the impression that it is their 'acceptance', the virtue of their decision, that makes all the difference. I have a tendency not to answer, not only because of the cacophony of resistant voices that will join the fray against me, in the presence of a new believer, but because of the fact that the very mindset of most new believers cannot conceive of the thing I hope to convey.

Even though I think very highly of you, compared to most who see problems with Calvinism, as you come across generally even-tempered and non-arrogant, and possessing of a willingness to consider multiple angles and minds, even you demonstrate a mindset that is unable to consider the will of man as actually incapable of anything apart from God's purpose and actions. Thus I don't think they, or you, or the new believer, likely to get a lot out of what I would say to such a person.

But I will try to say it as best as I can, without going on too long: My concern has for quite a few years now, not been a question of whether I am one of those who will be in Heaven. That has been overrun with the joy of knowing that God is altogether pleased with the work of his hands, with his particular creation, with what he has done (which is also what he is doing), and the confidence that he will complete what he has begun, and the anticipation of seeing him as he is, and knowing him as I am known. These things (and other related things) are the focus, or to say it more accurately, HE is the focus —this life and the next are about him, not me, and not about my safety.

When I say, "the confidence that he will complete what he has begun" I expect that you (or those more antagonistic than you) will protest, "but how do you know whether he has begun it?". I say, the same way anyone knows: It is not by the integrity or sincerity of one's asking Jesus into their heart that they are saved, but by the work of God. But the witness and comfort of the Spirit of God to my spirit is undeniable at this point.

This reminds me King David's situation, where after he takes a census, which was evil in God's sight for him to do, God gives him a choice of judgement upon Israel by famine, or by their enemies, or by the hand of God; and David said, "Let me fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into human hands.” I am at God's mercy, regardless, as to my eternal destiny; I say it is good that God is the one to choose, as my choices are stupid, helpless, ignorant and self-deceived, but God's choosing is full of mercy. I don't even really know what I am choosing when I choose, but only how things look to me at that moment.

 

[misput]

Non-responsive to my question. . .

Rediculous response. The second link is actually a well-done Southern Baptist effort to slip Calvinism through the eye of the needle.[/QUOTE]
V
Joh 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Jesus seems to indicate we do not know how it happens but it does happen. Only the foolish try to explain it.

 

[Clare73]

Why not just say what the Bible says concerning Christ atonement?
Peter does an excellent job of telling us that Christ died for all.

Jesus also does a pretty good job of describing his mission when he states that
"the Son of Man . .came to give his life as a ransom for many,"
which tells me that "all" in 2 Peter 2:1 is to be understood as "all without distinction," rather than
"all without exception."

He says that Christ paid for the worst of sinners - false prophets on there way to destruction who introduce heresies. If Christ paid for people introducing heresies, its safe to say he paid for your neighbor. Christ's payment is received through faith per Hebrews 4:1-2.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.​

In the context of vv. 20-23, they had at least professed knowing the Lord, and which Peter's comment reflects.

 

[Clare73]

Someone said: And spiritually dead--complete inability to do anything spiritually, is what Jesus and Paul are presenting in John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14.
The dead don't reach out and grab the life preserver of the gospel. That is NT teaching.

So then, that is confusing, So being dead from having sinned after birth and committing sin,

All mankind is born condemned (Romans 5:18) in spiritual death (no eternal life), which is why all have to be born again (John 3:3-8) to even see the kingdom of God.

the Calvinist who is spiritually dead and has complete inability to do anything spiritual becomes alive in Christ before they ever repent and believe the gospel, it that what is being said? I must not be getting the point, that cannot be true!

That is precisely what John 3:3-8 states. . .one must be born again to even see the kingdom of God.
Let that soak in. . .

Here is what I see coming straight out of the bible; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

Agreed. . .

 

[Mark Quayle]

Reformed theology comes with a spiritual blinding aspect, so it wouldn't help with that type of case.

Explain.

 

[Clare73]

Non-responsive to my question. . .

Rediculous response. The second link is actually a well-done Southern Baptist effort to slip Calvinism through the eye of the needle.

I'm referring to your lack of personal response to my question:

What part of John 3:3-8, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14 do you not understand?