What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[ByTheSpirit]

That was addressed to believers, about believers, and Jesus not returning before all the saved had come in.

Was this addressed to all people?
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.” Eze 18:32

Paul, the Apostle that is, would say it applies to "all people everywhere"
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Ac 17:30

Thus when Peter writes that God wants all the come to repentance, he means in every literal sense of the word, all people.
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance 2 Pe 3:9

 

[ByTheSpirit]

So, are you saying that your eternal destiny depends upon whether your decision (not God's) is real or not? Do not your failings and sins stare daily in your face? Or have you learned to ignore that?

God forgave my sins when I repented and was baptized (Acts 2:38). If I commit sins now, I can rest assured that he will forgive me when I confess them (1 John 1:9, James 5:15-16) But I am to walk by the Spirit now (Galatians 5:16-25; Romans 8:1-14)

 

[Clare73]

"Spiritual dead" is not an expression of the Bible, but concerning "dead in your sins" Eph 2:1 which I think Clare was refering to we have:

Contraire. . .

But "let the dead bury their own dead" (Matthew 8:22) is. . .where, in the context of the whole NT, the first dead is spiritual and the second dead is physical.
Likewise, in the context of the whole NT, spiritual rebirth--born again, is not born again from spiritual life, but from spiritual death (Colossians 2:13), complete spiritual disability (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
That's what regeneration (re-birth) means (John 3:3-8), from spiritual death and blindness to spiritual life and sight.

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
— John 8:24

Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
— Ezekiel 3:20

But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.’”
— Luke 15:32

They are "dead in sins" since they have the wrong standing with God and will die in their sins.
I don't know why/how to get to the conclusion that they are unable to respond...

It is the necessary conclusion.

Physically dead people don't respond to anything physical.
Spiritually dead people don't respond to anything spiritual (John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[Clare73]

Was this addressed to all people?
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.” Eze 18:32

Does this alter anything in the NT?

Paul, the Apostle that is, would say it applies to "all people everywhere"
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Ac 17:30

Indeed, he does. . .he does not "offer" the gospel, he commands repentance,
and those who do not, remain condemned (Romans 5:18).

Thus when Peter writes that God wants all the come to repentance, he means in every literal sense of the word, all people.

Indeed. . .God does not just "want," he commands all to repent.

Where failure to believe and repent "stands condemned already" (John 3:18).

 

[Clare73]

I will look closer into it. Maybe respond to him later if I know what to say.

I wonder what you would say as a Calvinist since you don't know Christ died for him.
You can't say Christ died for him for an example, or you can but that would be dishonest.

You can definitely say Christ died for those who believe, no one argues against that. . .so believe!

 

[Clare73]

I didn't mean that "spiritually dead/dead in your sins" only means you will die in your sins. It means your standing with God is wrong, you are lost and not saved and you will come under judgement, unless you repent. See the progidal son. He was dead in sin/"spiritually dead" before he repented.

Rick, I just meant that "spiritually dead" is not an expression of the Bible. If an Arminian use it in his teaching, he doesn't mean the same thing as a Calvinist, obviously.
the same thing with God being sovereign. Everyone believes it,
but all Christians don't mean the same thing.

That's why words have definitions. . .God is sovereign in terms of the definition of the word.

 

[zoidar]

That's why words have definitions. . .God is sovereign in terms of the definition of the word.

Do you know the definition of the word? It means God has the power to control everything. Every Christian agrees with that. Then people add ideas to that, how that plays out.

 

[Clare73]

Do you know the definition of the word? It means God has the power to control everything. Every Christian agrees with that. Then people add ideas to that, how that plays out.

If what they add conforms to the words of the definition, what is the objection?

 

[zoidar]

If what they add conforms to the words of the definition, what is the objection?

No problem. Just saying that the Calvinistic view of sovereignity is just one possible view.

 

[Clare73]

No problem. Just saying that
the Calvinistic view of sovereignity is just one possible view.

Are you thinking God is not sovereign, in terms of the definition of the word?

 

[zoidar]

Are you thinking God is not sovereign, in terms of the definition of the word?

No, of course He is! I don't believe that the Calvinistic understanding of God's sovereignity is correct according to the Bible. I don't know if there is a word to fully describe the Calvinistic view.

 

[Clare73]

No, of course He is! I don't believe that the Calvinistic understanding of God's sovereignity is correct according to the Bible. I don't know if there is a word to fully describe the Calvinistic view.

Could you flesh that out a little?

What do you find to be not Biblical?

 

[RickReads]

Contraire. . .

But "let the dead bury their own dead" (Matthew 8:22) is. . .where, in the context of the whole NT, the first dead is spiritual and the second dead is physical.
Likewise, in the context of the whole NT, spiritual rebirth--born again, is not born again from spiritual life, but from spiritual death (Colossians 2:13), complete spiritual disability (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
That's what regeneration (re-birth) means (John 3:3-8), from spiritual death and blindness to spiritual life and sight.
It is the necessary conclusion.

Physically dead people don't respond to anything physical.
Spiritually dead people don't respond to anything spiritual (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14)

In your view of regeneration, salvation is an automated process of God. There is no need to hear the gospel and no need to repent and no need to make public confession. No need of anything because you are autogenerated. If your lottery isn't a winner you are thrown under the bus and have no hope from the moment you are in the womb.

 

[zoidar]

Could you flesh that out a little?

What do you find to be not Biblical?

I'll be back later with replies. I want to enjoy the sun a little, before it's dark. Nice talking to you even we disagree quite often.

 

[Clare73]

In your view of regeneration, salvation is an automated process of God. There is no need to hear the gospel and no need to repent and no need to make public confession.
No need of anything because you are autogenerated. If your lottery isn't a winner you are thrown under the bus and have no hope from the moment you are in the womb.

Auto-regeneration is an oxymoron. . .self-contradictory on its face.

Do you believe that man can somehow regenerate, rebirth himself?
Where in the world do we find anyone giving birth to himself?
Only the Holy Spirit rebirths, just as only the mother births, and the "birthed" have nothing to do with it.
That is the pattern.

By definition, spiritual rebirth means from non-life to life, from spiritual death to spiritual life.
If he is spiritually dead--no Holy Spirit, how can he perform spiritually; i.e., spiritually hear, see, believe?
That's what John 3:3-8, Romans 8:7-8, and 1 Corinthians 2:14 are all about.

Dead men can't do anything in the physical order, and the same is true of the spiritual order, on which the physical order is patterned.
You are choosing to simply ignore major NT principles; i.e., the above.

Not cool. . .

 

[Mark Quayle]

God forgave my sins when I repented and was baptized (Acts 2:38). If I commit sins now, I can rest assured that he will forgive me when I confess them (1 John 1:9, James 5:15-16) But I am to walk by the Spirit now (Galatians 5:16-25; Romans 8:1-14)

You didn't answer the question.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In your view of regeneration, salvation is an automated process of God. There is no need to hear the gospel and no need to repent and no need to make public confession. No need of anything because you are autogenerated. If your lottery isn't a winner you are thrown under the bus and have no hope from the moment you are in the womb.

You know better than this, if you are, as you claim, indoctrinated in Calvinism/ Reformed Theology. There is no 'lottery'. Nothing is relegated to chance. I'm beginning to wonder about your claim. Very strange notions you have of Calvinism.

 

[RickReads]

Auto-regeneration is an oxymoron. . .self-contradictory on its face.

Do you believe that man can somehow regenerate, rebirth himself?
Where in the world do we find anyone giving birth to himself?
Only the Holy Spirit rebirths, just as only the mother births, and the "birthed" have nothing to do with it.
That is your pattern.

By definition, spiritual rebirth means from non-life to life, from spiritual death to spiritual life.
If he is spiritually dead--no Holy Spirit, how can he perform spiritually; i.e., spiritually hear, see, believe?
That's what John 3:3-8, Romans 8:7-8, and 1 Corinthians 2:14 are all about.

Dead men can't do anything in the physical order, and the same is true of the spiritual order, on which the physical order is patterned.
You are ignoring major NT principles; i.e., the above.

I don't get how you are injecting all that into my words but frankly, I don't like it and I will not be responding because, in my opinion, you are debating very dishonestly here.

You are tap-dancing around the fact that your idea of regeneration is salvation without the need to practice Christianity.

If it is possible to pass from death to life without even hearing the gospel then I don't need to do anything of a religious nature. That`s your doctrine, your belief, not mine so don't turn yourself into a liar by trying to dump it on me.

 

[RickReads]

You know better than this, if you are, as you claim, indoctrinated in Calvinism/ Reformed Theology. There is no 'lottery'. Nothing is relegated to chance. I'm beginning to wonder about your claim. Very strange notions you have of Calvinism.

Indeed it is very strange, I learned it from you Calvins. If im regenerated I have everything I need.

 

[Mark Quayle]

@RickReads said, In your view of regeneration, salvation is an automated process of God. There is no need to hear the gospel and no need to repent and no need to make public confession. No need of anything because you are autogenerated. If your lottery isn't a winner you are thrown under the bus and have no hope from the moment you are in the womb.

You know better than this, if you are, as you claim, indoctrinated in Calvinism/ Reformed Theology. There is no 'lottery'. Nothing is relegated to chance. I'm beginning to wonder about your claim. Very strange notions you have of Calvinism.

I should also say that your claim that @Clare73 has the view of regeneration, where salvation is an automated process of God, is also very strange, for someone claiming to have grown up in or been indoctrinated in Calvinism. What in the world makes you think something is automated, if God is doing it?

It's outlandish enough, and humanocentric, to think that if a human isn't the one who causes it, that it is therefore automatic, but to claim that Calvinism believes that if God does it, it is somehow automatic, is not only not Calvinistic, but demonstrates mere deism at best, and denies the nature of God.