What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Does not GOD claim to deal with people who are stubborn against repentance? Elect people. HIS legitimate children, not fakes, not the reprobate within the church but sinful believers:

HEBREWS 12:5-11. Take it to heart...

See my post #1196 concerning opinions. He who has ears to hear let him hear.

 

[Clare73]

I see you have read Gordon Olson's book "The Foreknowledge of God", because
that was exactly what he taught.

That puts him in good company. . .

However, I've never heard of Gordon Olson, much less read his book.

Maybe he read my book. . .which I have yet to write (and have no desire nor intention of ever doing!)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That puts him in good company. . .

However, I've never heard of Gordon Olson, much less read his book.

Maybe he read my book. . .which I have yet to write (and have no desire nor intention of ever doing!)

Back in the historical mists of this thread, I posted my explanation of what Olson taught. He believed that the future is unknowable because it doesn't exist yet, therefore God knows everything knowable, except the future. He also taught that God does not exist with a simultaneous past present and future, because eternity is an endless series of events, one following another, therefore if God did not go from one event to another, He wouldn't be able to exist. Some people believe that the only reality is "now", but if I take a photo of "now", by the time I take the photo and look at it, the photo is no longer "now" but "then" and therefore past history because I have moved on from it to a further series of events. In actual fact, life is an endless series of choices until we reach the end of our lives. Time for us is the measurement of it based on the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the earth around the sun. Eternity is the endless series of events that are not measured, because there is no basis for measurement. In fact we won't have to measure it because there will be no limits. We measure time here because it has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and so we don't want to waste what time we have in our lives. We measure our experience by how many years we have done something. We know time is running out as we get to old age and know that we don't have many years left. But in eternity measurement is not an issue, and so our time in heaven will be one joyful event after another for ever. This is one of the foundations of Open Theist teaching. In fact, there are many Bible references that support it, and that is why it is a very convincing theological opinion.

 

[Clare73]

Back in the historical mists of this thread, I posted my explanation of what Olson taught. He believed that the future is unknowable because it doesn't exist yet, therefore God knows everything knowable, except the future.

And you think that I think what he thought?
Interesting. . .what did I ever say to make you think that!

He also taught that God does not exist with a simultaneous past present and future, because eternity is an endless series of events, one following another, therefore if God did not go from one event to another, He wouldn't be able to exist. Some people believe that the only reality is "now", but if I take a photo of "now", by the time I take the photo and look at it, the photo is no longer "now" but "then" and therefore past history because I have moved on from it to a further series of events. In actual fact, life is an endless series of choices until we reach the end of our lives. Time for us is the measurement of it based on the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the earth around the sun. Eternity is the endless series of events that are not measured, because there is no basis for measurement. In fact we won't have to measure it because there will be no limits. We measure time here because it has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and so we don't want to waste what time we have in our lives. We measure our experience by how many years we have done something. We know time is running out as we get to old age and know that we don't have many years left. But in eternity measurement is not an issue, and so our time in heaven will be one joyful event after another for ever. This is one of the foundations of Open Theist teaching. In fact, there are many Bible references that support it, and that is why it is a very convincing theological opinion.

 

[TedT]

I hope I am replying to TedT, if I understand you correctly, are you saying that God is not omniscience? He really does not know everything?

GOD's omniscience, Calvin's failure:
Calvin followed the pagan Greek widom definition of omniscience brought into the church by the Greek idolizers and Augustine: ie, GOD knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future. Certainly sounds all Godly and all eh? To bad it is a blasphemy...

GOD is Love, holy, righteous and Just before all else. All doctrine must conform to HIS nature. All doctrine that impugnes HIS nature is a blasphemy.

This definition of HIS omniscience implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! This is not loving; it is not righteous; it is not just - no matter how many books of theo-babble have been written to try to make it so...therefore it is blasphemy.

GOD does all things for HIS pleasure but HE takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked - therefore HE did not create them evil to go to hell! Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked...

Also, HE wants all people to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4...who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. so whether HE will get this want fulfilled or not, HE obviously did NOT create anyone evil and without hope for salvation, ie, destined to hell at creation!

So what do I offer in its place? Acts 15:18 KJV Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. To be precise, HE knows all HIS works, usually accepted to be referring to all that HE was created by HIS creative decree, which implies that IF HE did not create something by HIS creative decree, HE does NOT KNOW IT.

Also, these things HE knows from, since, the beginning of the world, not BEFORE creation, not since eternity past. Therefore we have good Biblical reason to reject the pagan wisdom the ancient Church idolized.

This biblical definition of what HE knows also implies that If HE did NOT create the results of our free will decisions but let us create those results by our free will according to what we most wanted, THEN HE did not know these results of our free will decisions UNTIL we created the for ourselves and brought them into reality.

Therefore NO ONE was created evil; not before Adam (Satan etc) nor after Adam (you, me) but all sinners were created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to become holy or eternally evil and then all sinners were sown into the world as per Matt 13:38-39.

 

[Clare73]

I hope I am replying to TedT, if I understand you correctly,
are you saying that God is not omniscience? He really does not know everything?

Can you believe that?

Addressed in post #1186.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I follow in the footsteps of the reformers that said “I’d rather believe what Paul wrote about God than the opinions of any of the men that came later.”

Sola Scriptura.

Why do you think Irenaeus and his literature Against Heresies was preserved? The church obviously thought him an expert on the topic of heresy. He was only 80 years separated from Paul. He quotes key scriptures, loved by all who believe in genuine free will. 80 years is like my grandmother, 1 generation. No church doctrine will change within one generation. Don't hang onto some so-called reformation over 1000 years later, there were some good parts to the reformation, but to my reckoning not all. We are at least blessed with vast arrays of documents that the reformation probably had little or no access to. Just think for a minute, are you misrepresenting God, not I. Think one generation of doctrine, not 100's. As this discussion started with "God is Love".

From Irenaeus:

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

 

[iwbswiaihl]

GOD's omniscience, Calvin's failure:
Calvin followed the pagan Greek widom definition of omniscience brought into the church by the Greek idolizers and Augustine: ie, GOD knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future. Certainly sounds all Godly and all eh? To bad it is a blasphemy...

GOD is Love, holy, righteous and Just before all else. All doctrine must conform to HIS nature. All doctrine that impugnes HIS nature is a blasphemy.

This definition of HIS omniscience implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! This is not loving; it is not righteous; it is not just - no matter how many books of theo-babble have been written to try to make it so...therefore it is blasphemy.

GOD does all things for HIS pleasure but HE takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked - therefore HE did not create them evil to go to hell! Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked...

Also, HE wants all people to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4...who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. so whether HE will get this want fulfilled or not, HE obviously did NOT create anyone evil and without hope for salvation, ie, destined to hell at creation!

So what do I offer in its place? Acts 15:18 KJV Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. To be precise, HE knows all HIS works, usually accepted to be referring to all that HE was created by HIS creative decree, which implies that IF HE did not create something by HIS creative decree, HE does NOT KNOW IT.

Also, these things HE knows from, since, the beginning of the world, not BEFORE creation, not since eternity past. Therefore we have good Biblical reason to reject the pagan wisdom the ancient Church idolized.

This biblical definition of what HE knows also implies that If HE did NOT create the results of our free will decisions but let us create those results by our free will according to what we most wanted, THEN HE did not know these results of our free will decisions UNTIL we created them for ourselves and brought them into reality.

Therefore NO ONE was created evil; not before Adam (Satan etc) nor after Adam (you, me) but all sinners were created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to become holy or eternally evil and then all sinners were sown into the world as per Matt 13:38-39.

**** This below is what I would not agree with; from the scripture and not from Calvin or any author of mankind is not, from my belief but what the word of God says is true. I cannot say, when He speaks what could He "could have known or not known", I go with what the word says in black on white paper. Pro16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. I have to believe this whether I fully comprehend it or not, but that, and as you say in one of your comments; [Also, HE wants all people to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4...who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. so whether HE will get this want fulfilled or not, HE obviously did NOT create anyone evil and without hope for salvation, ie, destined to hell at creation!]
"And I also believe this statement".

So, when you say this; is where I would part company with agreeing they are true and there is no scripture that would say that He lacks knowledge of any thing that would ever come up. This to me, destroys the many verses that contradict what He meant when He clearly states otherwise.
[Also, these things HE knows from, since, the beginning of the world, not BEFORE creation, not since eternity past. Therefore we have good Biblical reason to reject the pagan wisdom the ancient Church idolized.] My answer Heresy from my belief, I would not have the conscience to say this, in the same breathe, I would give that freedom to you or anyone, but would never agree to it. The modern phrase would be, to each their own, to me, every tub sets on its own bottom. But I would not say you were evil or anything negative other than, if I were you, I would be careful of putting words in the mouth of an all knowing God, who is the way the truth and the life.

 

[Clare73]

I follow in the footsteps of the reformers that said “I’d rather believe what Paul wrote about God than the opinions of any of the men that came later.”

Sola Scriptura.

Precisely!

As if Scripture could be improved upon.

 

[Der Alte]

**** This below is what I would not agree with; from the scripture and not from Calvin or any author of mankind is not, from my belief but what the word of God says is true. I cannot say, when He speaks what could He "could have known or not known", I go with what the word says in black on white paper. Pro16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. I have to believe this whether I fully comprehend it or not, but that, and as you say in one of your comments; [Also, HE wants all people to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4...who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. so whether HE will get this want fulfilled or not, HE obviously did NOT create anyone evil and without hope for salvation, ie, destined to hell at creation!]
"And I also believe this statement".
So, when you say this; is where I would part company with agreeing they are true and there is no scripture that would say that He lacks knowledge of any thing that would ever come up. This to me, destroys the many verses that contradict what He meant when He clearly states otherwise.
[Also, these things HE knows from, since, the beginning of the world, not BEFORE creation, not since eternity past. Therefore we have good Biblical reason to reject the pagan wisdom the ancient Church idolized.] My answer Heresy from my belief, I would not have the conscience to say this, in the same breathe, I would give that freedom to you or anyone, but would never agree to it. The modern phrase would be, to each their own, to me, every tub sets on its own bottom. But I would not say you were evil or anything negative other than, if I were you, I would be careful of putting words in the mouth of an all knowing God, who is the way the truth and the life.

Several years ago when I first heard the Calvinist proof text about a leopard not being able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18. And as I read further in this chapter I found another passage, which refutes several tenets of Calvinism.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Precisely!

As if Scripture could be improved upon.

I guess you didn't notice that wasn't scripture, but a comment from an unknown source. Poor debate tactics. Paul's improvements come from correctly decerning his words, not His (Paul's) word about law/grace incorrectly.

 

[misput]

Contraire. . .

All have Biblical free will:
"the power to choose (execute) voluntarily without external force or constraint, what one prefers, likes." (i.e., free agent)

Sinners freely choose what they prefer--sin, the consequences of which is eternal death.

You can't blame it on God that they prefer sin, that's Adam's doing.

God made Adam in His image, Spiritual, does that mean that even though Adam had a fleshly body he did not have a fleshly nature until he sinned? If yes, what caused him to sin?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

God made Adam in His image, Spiritual, does that mean that even though Adam had a fleshly body he did not have a fleshly nature until he sinned? If yes, what caused him to sin?

He chose to by his own free will; to obey or not. Think about the angels in heaven, they were created beings, we are not told but would assume that God spoke them into existence, even though they to must be spirit they knew God and there were limits for them but I know not what, because I don't recall if we have any insight into their actions as such. But Satan and a 1/3 of the angels fell through their disobedience. I would have to believe they chose to do this just as Adam and Eve chose to disobey, and the first Adam passed his sinful nature on to his off spring. And of course following Eve's advice, they both disobeyed, and Adam learned a valuable lesson, "every since the world began, woman's been a thorn in the side of men, Adam told Eve, stay away from that tree"!

 

[misput]

He chose to by his own free will; to obey or not. Think about the angels in heaven, they were created beings, we are not told but would assume that God spoke them into existence, even though they to must be spirit they knew God and there were limits for them but I know not what, because I don't recall if we have any insight into their actions as such. But Satan and a 1/3 of the angels fell through their disobedience. I would have to believe they chose to do this just as Adam and Eve chose to disobey, and the first Adam passed his sinful nature on to his off spring. And of course following Eve's advice, they both disobeyed, and Adam learned a valuable lesson, every since the world began, woman's been a thorn in the side of men, Adam told Eve, stay away from that tree.

You did not answer my questions. Did Adam have a fleshly nature before he sinned?
If he did not, what caused him to sin?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

You did not answer my questions. Did Adam have a fleshly nature before he sinned?
If he did not, what caused him to sin?

The first line of my post was my answer. He chose to sin. His spirit died and the natural man then took dominion(rule) over his actions, and then 1Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. It does not say whether he repented or not as far as I have ever seen, if I did I do not recall.

 

[Clare73]

I guess you didn't notice that wasn't scripture, but a comment from an unknown source. Poor debate tactics. Paul's improvements come from correctly decerning his words, not His (Paul's) word about law/grace incorrectly.

Yes, atpollard is not the penman of Scripture, nor was the person he was quoting a penman of Scripture, and which person preferred Scripture over the writings of the early Christians; however,
both are most Scriptural in their preference of Scripture over other Christian writings.

 

[Clare73]

God made Adam in His image, Spiritual,

Spiritual means that man has an immortal spirit, as God is immortal Spirit.

does that mean that even though Adam had a fleshly body he did not have a fleshly nature until he sinned? If yes, what caused him to sin?

If by "fleshly" nature, you mean fallen nature , the answer is yes, Adam did not have a fallen nature until he sinned.

When Paul uses "flesh," he is referring to the fallen nature, which Adam acquired when he sinned, and which we inherit by birth.

Adam sinned by preferring the creature, Eve, over the Creator.

Do we ever covet God's blessings more than fellowship with God himself?

 

[misput]

If by "fleshly" nature, you mean fallen nature , the answer is yes, Adam did not have a fallen nature until he sinned.
Adam sinned by preferring the creature, Eve, over the Creator.

Having a fleshly nature does not mean fallen or sinful to me. To fall means to have sinful thoughts and or actions originating from the flesh nature:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Does "every man" not include Adam? Is "every man" a sinner before he is tempted and drawn away of his own lust?

 

[misput]

The first line of my post was my answer. He chose to sin. His spirit died and the natural man then took dominion(rule) over his actions, and then 1Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. It does not say whether he repented or not as far as I have ever seen, if I did I do not recall.

"as in Adam all die," means in the same way, by sinning.

 

[Clare73]

Having a fleshly nature does not mean fallen or sinful to me.

However, in Paul's usage it refers to the unregenerate (fallen) nature.

To fall means to have sinful thoughts and or actions originating from the flesh nature:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Does "every man" not include Adam? Is "every man" a sinner before he is tempted and drawn away of his own lust?

No, Adam is not "every" man. Adam is the "first" MAN (Adam). (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Corinthians 15:45-49; Romans 5:14)

Everyone else is a descendant of Adam.