What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

Do you personally know all "Calvins" that you can state what they believe?

I don't need to. A thing called the web was invented some years ago.

Irresistible grace (also called effectual grace,[1] effectual calling, or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ. It is to be distinguished from prevenient grace, particularly associated with Arminianism, which teaches that the offer of salvation through grace does not act irresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method, but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied.[2]

 

[Clare73]

Oh I agree , Calvin disagreed .

Where did he disagree?

He said man was not allowed to choose to believe or disbelieve?

 

[Clare73]

I don't need to. A thing called the web was invented some years ago.

Irresistible grace (also called effectual grace,[1] effectual calling, or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ. It is to be distinguished from prevenient grace, particularly associated with Arminianism, which teaches that the offer of salvation through grace does not act irresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method, but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied.[2]

None of which means no free choice according to the Biblical meaning of free will; i.e.,
the power to choose (execute) voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what one prefers, likes.

 

[roman2819]

What God "desired," he revealed to Pharaoh, "Let my people go," which was not what he willed/decreed for Pharaoh, and had explained to Moses before Moses even left Midian for Egypt, "I will harden his heart so that he will not let them go," (Exodus 4:21), but then later did reveal to Pharoah, "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Exodus 9:16; Romans 9:7).

Verses such as God hardened Pharaoh's heart should not be analysed literally or factually. The scripture assert God's sovereignty -- that was the manner of writing in biblical time.

Egypt was the most powerful empire in the region at that time, and Pharaoh was king and commander of a powerful army. Would such a powerful figure listened to lone ranger Moses who has no army? In Egyptian tradition, pharaoh is a semi-deity. We cannot expect him to fear the Hebrew god when he had never seen the power of Jehovah. As well, Moses was pharaoh's half-brother , a criminal who killed someone many years ago and fled Egypt.

If pharaoh just let the slaves walk, he would be incurring the anger and scorn of his people - so surely he won't. Many Egyptians owned slaves to do household chores. Salves also worked on public projects, probably built roads and pyramids. There was more than 200,000 male slaves according to Numbers. If Pharaoh let them walk free, his people would call him an imbecile for listening to one prophet.

God said to Moses that He would harden Pharaoh's heart. This caused many Christians to mistaken that if Jehovah had not hardened his heart, the latter would let them go. But would he really? We need to understand that the Bible asserted God's sovereignty and portrayed God as supreme - this is the way of writing. Unaware of this, today we tend to read the Scripture with a modern perspective.

Before God sent the 10 plagues, the pharaoh did not know the God of the Hebrews and His mighty power. Indeed we cannot really accuse pharaoh of pride - he was only acting human when he refused to accede to Moses' demand. More explained in #1159.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Where did he disagree?

He said man was not allowed to choose to believe or disbelieve?

If I quote him will you believe it ?

 

[TedT]

In other words, eisegesis

The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their own mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice.
Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.

 

[Clare73]

If I quote him will you believe it ?

I'd love to.

Will you give me the source of your quote that I may examine it?

 

[TedT]

No it’s posters on the forum I deal with on a daily basis who claim the sin by the minute, hour , day, week , month , year habitually and it never stops when scripture says the opposite that those who practice sin , make it a habit will not enter the kingdom of God . That’s the issue

Does not GOD claim to deal with people who are stubborn against repentance? Elect people. HIS legitimate children, not fakes, not the reprobate within the church but sinful believers:

HEBREWS 12:5-11. Take it to heart...

 

[Clare73]

The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their own mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice.
Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.

Actually, that would be the flim flam of man's vain proposition to usurp even the possibility of understanding Scripture correctly, leaving only modern hermeneutics with the ability to do so (NOT!).

God has not given us a word without safeguard for its correct understanding. . .that being the context of the whole Bible with which all our understanding of Scripture must be in harmony to be correct.

So, guess what! You have to know your Bible if you want to correctly understand God's word.

What a concept!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I'd love to.

Will you give me the source of your quote that I may examine it?

I’m at work and do not have my resources here but take a look here.

John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[TedT]

God said to Moses that He would harden Pharaoh's heart. This caused many Christians to mistaken that if Jehovah had not hardened Pharaoh's heart, the latter would let them go. But would he?

EXCELLENT!
I've been fighting against the ordinary interpretation of this story for years... It is a classic example of "telling the story badly" which in our case means from the Satanic pov.

Were Pharaoh and Moses good buddies? Was Pharaoh struggling against that evil YHWH to do the right thing to let them go but YHWH hardened him against doing that??

Pharaoh hated Moses and the Israelites and the only reason he considered letting them go was because over and over it is said he feared YHWH for HIS power due to the miracles!

YHWH hardened Pharaoh's heart to do as he most wanted, to destroy the people of GOD. All YHWH had to do to 'harden his heart' was to let him get over his fear and feel strong again, able to do as he most desired, that is, to destroy the Israelites, NOT to force him to go against his desire to let them go!! My goodness…

 

[Clare73]

Verses such as God hardened Pharaoh's heart should not be analysed literally or factually.

Who made that rule?

I guess Paul didn't get the memo (Romans 9:17-23).

Egypt was the most powerful empire in the region at that time, and Pharaoh was king and commander of a powerful army. Would such a powerful figure listened to lone ranger Moses who has no army? In Egyptian tradition, pharaoh is a semi-deity. We cannot expect him to fear the Hebrew god when he had never seen the power of Jehovah. As well, Moses was pharaoh's half-brother , a criminal who killed someone many years ago and fled Egypt.

If pharaoh just let the slaves walk, he would be incurring the anger and scorn of his people - so surely he won't. Many Egyptians owned slaves to do household chores. Salves also worked on public projects, probably built roads and pyramids. There was more than 200,000 male slaves according to Numbers. If Pharaoh let them walk free, his people would call him an imbecile for listening to one prophet,

God said to Moses that He would harden Pharaoh's heart. This caused many Christians to mistaken that if Jehovah had not hardened Pharaoh's heart, the latter would let them go. But would he?

We need to understand that the Bible asserted God's sovereignty and portrayed God as supreme - this is the way of writing. Unaware of this, today we tend to read the Scripture with a modern perspective.

Who made that rule? . . .Not God!

Run, Forest, run!

Before God sent the 10 plagues, the pharaoh did not know the God of the Hebrews and His mighty power. Indeed we cannot really accuse pharaoh
of pride - he was only acting human when he refused to accede to Moses' demand.

Are you sure about that?

Nine plagues later. . .Egypt in ruins. . .and he still didn't get it?
I'm thinkin' NOT!

More explained in #1159.

Like I said, evidently Paul didn't get the memo (Romans 9:16-21).

 

[Clare73]

I’m at work and do not have my resources here but take a look here.

John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

That's fine, I can wait until you get to them.

Thanks.

 

[Clare73]

EXCELLENT!
I've been fighting against the ordinary interpretation of this story for years... It is a classic example of "telling the story badly" which in our case means from the Satanic pov.
Were Pharaoh and Moses good buddies? Was Pharaoh struggling against that evil YHWH to do the right thing to let them go but YHWH hardened him against doing that??
Pharaoh hated Moses and the Israelites and the only reason he considered letting them go was because over and over it is said he feared YHWH for HIS power due to the miracles!

And is this not the plain implication of the text?

So why do you call an interpretation to the contrary the "ordinary interpretation?"
"Ordinary" where. . .and to whom?

YHWH hardened Pharaoh's heart to do as he most wanted, to destroy the people of GOD. All YHWH had to do to 'harden his heart' was to let him get over his fear and feel strong again, able to do as he most desired, that is, to destroy the Israelites, NOT to force him to go against his desire to let them go!! My goodness…

 

[TedT]

So, guess what! You have to know your Bible if you want to correctly understand God's word.

Why write: Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; if bible knowledge is all we need? Even Satan quotes scripture with his own interpretation. We need discernment and the understanding that comes from the Holy Spirit, not what we think the words mean. True, perfect, exegesis is only available from the Holy Spirit.

Beware those who know the Bible and their theology very well but who do not know GOD at all.

 

[Clare73]

Why write: Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; if bible knowledge is all we need? Even Satan quotes scripture with his own interpretation.

Seems you missed the qualifying element. . .you can do better than that!

In harmony with all Scripture will not produce an incorrect understanding.

We need discernment and the understanding that comes from the Holy Spirit, not what we think the words mean. True, perfect, exegesis is only available from the Holy Spirit.

The words mean whatever their definition is in the Greek, their meaning as used in the context of the passage and of all Scripture.

God has not left his people with a word they cannot know.

Beware those who know the Bible and their theology very well but who do not know GOD at all.

Indeed!

And most of all, beware those who claim to know God but do not know his mind at all as revealed in his own word, substituting in its stead their own mind and reason.

 

[TedT]

What a loathsome notion of God.

...and is refuted in John 3:18 for those who have the ears to hear it.

 

[Clare73]

...and is refuted in John 3:18 for those who have the ears to hear it.

And which. . .surprise! . . .is in agreement with Romans 5:18, the Scripture being challenged.

 

[roman2819]

Who made that rule?

I guess Paul didn't get the memo (Romans 9:17-23).

Who made that rule? . . .Not God!

.

It is well said in the Psalms. Haven't you read?

 

[Clare73]

It is well said in the Psalms. Haven't you read?

So the Psalms disagree with Romans 9:17-23?