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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

TedT

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I am in complete agreement that all who perish, as well as all those who are saved, are so by their own choice.

But does this include: NOT by the will of GOD? That is, that HE held HIS sovereign will in abeyance to see what they will choose by their free will?

IF not then we have the contradiction that we choose by our free will what HE has chosen for us by HIS sovereign will...destroying the meaning of our free will.
 
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TedT

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I did once during the 1970s, but I now believe that God knows every detail of the future. How He does it, I have no idea, but if the Bible says He does, then I believe it because the Holy Spirit who spoke through Peter does not lie. He is the Spirit of truth.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

The idea that HIS omniscience is from eternity to eternity is a pagan Greek philosophical idea that crept into the Church and supported the blasphemy that GOD knew who would go to perdition before HE created them but created them anyway.

Much better is the Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe HIS creative decrees. Every reference to HIS full knowledge uses only the physical universe to define the lack of limits...

Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...and I contend it is most probable that HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves.
 
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Clare73

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But does this include: NOT by the will of GOD? That is, that HE held HIS sovereign will in abeyance to see what they will choose by their free will?

IF not then we have the contradiction that we choose by our free will what HE has chosen for us by HIS sovereign will...destroying the meaning of our free will.
My mother's death was by the will of God. . .and a heart attack.

However, I speak in human terms and report my mother's death as due to heart attack.

If you want to speak in terms of God, nothing is outside his will, or then he is not God, something greater is God which can override his will.

Your answer regarding faith by choice or faith by the will of God, faith by both or faith by neither, lies in that domain, with which I have no need to quarrel.
I am happy with it whatever way it is.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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(From formerly known as Oscarr): If God had made Judas betray Jesus, he would plead duress at the judgment and he would have had to be acquitted. No. Judas chose of his own free will to betray Jesus, and he will be judged on that choice. Because he had a track record of making sinful choices, he allowed Satan to enter his heart which led to the tragic outcome.
Actually he was never saved, as scripture states, except one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ they are never saved and once someone is converted to a saint they are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Eph 1: 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...and I contend it is most probable that HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves.
I hope I am replying to TedT, if I understand you correctly, are you saying that God is not omniscience? He really does not know everything?
 
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Clare73

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Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

The idea that HIS omniscience is from eternity to eternity is a pagan Greek philosophical idea that crept into the Church
1) First of all, we are agreed that it is about his works, and not the works of man.

2) Secondly, it is not about his omniscience, it is about his foreknowledge. . .they are not the same thing.
Omniscience is knowledge, foreknowledge is execution of what was foreordained to be executed at some point in time.

Acts 15:18 - 'Known to the Lord for ages is his work.'

Isaiah 48:3 - 'I foretold (predestined) the former things of long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly
I acted (executed), and they came to pass.'

See Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 37:26.

God executed in their present the choice and purpose he made (predestined) before they were created;
i.e., he executed (accomplished) his foreknowledge (his previous choice and purpose)."

3) Thirdly, Scripture gives no "time line" for Isaiah 48:3 of how long ago this foreknowledge is and, therefore, "from eternity to eternity" cannot be excluded, particularly since God is eternal and does not exist on a timeline. We can't blame eternal on the pagans.
and supported the blasphemy that GOD knew who would go to perdition before HE created them but created them anyway.
Sorry, that "blasphemy" cannot be escaped if God is both omniscient and Creator, which he is.
It's baked into creation.
Much better is the Biblical definition:
Agreed. . .however, we must understand it correctly.
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
This limits HIS omniscience
to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.'
However, Acts 15:18, is not about his omniscience of all things, but is about his foreknowledge of his works, which foreknowledge is not a matter of observation, but a matter of God's decreed action, per Isaiah 48:3.
All HIS works describe HIS creative decrees
Not at all. . .his foreknowledge regarding the universe is of all his actions, to the end of time, not just of creation.
Every reference to HIS full knowledge uses only the physical universe to define the lack of limits...
Acts 15:18 is not about "full knowledge;" i.e., omniscience, it's about divine foreknowledge, two different things, the former a matter of observation, the latter a matter of decree and action.
Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...
God is not omniscient if he does not know all things, past, present and future.
and I contend it is most probable that HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves.
Your God is too small, and his arm is too short.

Isaiah 48:3 presents God's foreknowledge as decreeing his future actions, which actions are the subject of his foreknowledge.

Divine foreknowledge is about God's future actions, not about man's future actions.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I follow in the footsteps of the reformers that said “I’d rather believe what Paul wrote about God than the opinions of any of the men that came later.”

Sola Scriptura.
Yep. Paul wrote under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit the teaching that he received directly from the risen and glorified Jesus during the three years he spent in isolation in Asia (somewhere in modern Turkey). Jesus gave him the same three year training He gave to His other 12 disciples.

The early church fathers took on board what Paul wrote and presented their exposition of it in accordance to Paul's instruction to Timothy, "Teach the Word to faithful men who will in turn teach others." Because Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Jesus", good exposition should link through Paul and then to Jesus. This is because Paul's writing was all about Jesus. In fact, the whole Bible is about Jesus, while, in fact, a lot of the ex-Biblical teaching is not necessarily about Jesus, and therefore much less reliable for instruction in sound doctrine.
 
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Even when I was a staunch Calvinist I was always about Gods love. Love is how this world knows we are Christs disciples. And everything else in the Christians life is meaningless apart from love as per 1 Corinthians 13. Loving God and loving others sums up the entire law and the prophets. Sometimes we have a tendency to over complicate the basics of Christianity with theology but it all really boils down to this question.

How is your love life ?

With God and others.

hope this helps !!!
The parts about Calvinism that are about Jesus are reliable, while teaching in any theology that departs from Him is less reliable and should always be tested with written Scripture (which always points to Jesus, either as the Messiah to come, or the risen, glorified Jesus at the right hand of the majesty on high).
 
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Calvin doesn't teach they have no choice.
They go either to glory or damnation by their personal choice.
If the reprobate have no choice about their destiny then they can't be judged at the Judgement because they were made reprobate under duress, having their personal choice taken from them. In the same way, being elect would mean nothing because they weren't given any choice, and anything that is not done through personal choice has no moral value with God at all. He did not design mankind to be programmable robots.

How we can fully reconcile personal choice with predestination is impossible because it is a mystery in the mind of God Himself. The information that the Holy Spirit has given in the written Word, leads us to know that if we believe the Gospel, repent of our sin, and receive Christ, then we will be saved. If people reject the Gospel they will be lost. The word that Joshua gave to the Israelites, "Choose you this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:15) still holds as a principle for those who hear the Gospel. This shows me that personal choice is Biblical, and whether a person is elect or reprobate is dependent on it.

What this means theoogically, is that we receive the Biblical parts of Calvin and Arminius (ie: get the meat from the bones) and reject what is just their personal opinion. In fact, this is what we need to do with any systematic theology, because no theology is perfect.
 
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There is no denial of "free will" ("free will" nowhere stated in the Bible, except for the word "voluntary") in Calvin that I have found.
The reality is that there is no "free will" at all. Unconverted sinners are slaves to sin. They don't have free will. They can't choose anything else but sin. It is only the Holy Spirit who can free them from the bondage to, and the power of sin when they believe the Gospel. When they believe the Gospel, the Holy Spirit gives them the ability to repent of their sin and receive Christ. The converted Christian still has no free choice, because he is bonded to the commands of Christ (love one another) and the will of God (even your sanctification). He is not forced to live by the will of God, but chooses to be bonded into Christ and to say, "Not my will, but Yours be done".

Unconverted people saying that we have "free will" is using it as an excuse to choose any kind of sin that they find most pleasurable or profitable for themselves.
 
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I was dutch reformed as a new believer from 1980-84. I was raised Lutheran prior to that. I have the institutes , the WCF and all the major Theological works by Calvinists. I'm very well acquainted with TULIP and have taught it for decades. So I do not speak from ignorance but from being a staunch calvinist for decades and from personal experience within calvinism for the same time period.

hope this helps !!!
That is a very good foundation to have, and it shows in your posts on the forum.
 
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Not that I say that the Bible is Calvinism, because I admit that Calvinism mainly focuses on some particular aspects of the Bible, but I could say, "Yes. Read the Bible."
We have to understand that Calvin was a man of his time. He lived at a time when to be Reformed was illegal in many parts of the known world dominated by Roman Catholicism. Even to have a copy of a non-Latin Bible was a capital offence, and many were burned at the stake, not by the Church, but by the civil authorities who enforced the statutes of the law of the time. A lot of what Calvin wrote was therefore in response to what he saw was unsound doctrine in the Established Church, and his Institutes were his attempt to give what he believed was sound doctrine. But the Institutes are not the Bible and with any teaching of doctrine, the inspired written Scriptures has to be the moderating standard.
 
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It's kind of funny, to me, how the way someone puts something, and emphasizes something, is taken to mean something else by others.

According to Scripture, God's choice alone saves. But Scripture also says we choose him.

But Scripture also shows that our choices do not add to God's. And that God acts by use of means. It's not as though our choices cause God's choices, but it seems that way to us. God chose, therefore, it would behoove us to choose God. That may seem artificial, yet none of us even CAN truly choose him, apart from him working in us what he has chosen to do. It is not we who make our choosing real, but he.
This is in accordance with the Scripture, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you", and "Many are called, but few are chosen". But we have to delve deeper into the Scriptures to see what constitutes the basis of God's choice of those He predestines to be saved and who He leaves to be lost. We use the principle that Scripture interprets Scripture to provide the balance between God choosing some to be saved, and seekers believing the Gospel and choosing to repent of their sin and receive Christ. The idea that if a person came to Christ and God telling them, "You can't be saved because I didn't choose you" would be non-Biblical and deny Christ's promise, "He who comes to me, I will in no way cast out" as well as other promises about coming to Christ.

So I think that the priority for us is to believe the Gospel, repent of sin, and receive Christ according to the promises, and deal with the election question afterward.
 
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I think it's needful to note that you are talking scriptures and he is talking about what Calvins believe.
Not the same thing as you just showed by avoiding Calvinism in order to be able to contrast his point.
The promises of God in the written Scriptures always take precedence over any theology of man, no matter how "good" and "sound" we think that theology is.
 
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I was trying to be nice. To say it more plainly, Calvin does not deny choice, but emphasizes God's choice as supreme. Human choice is assumed in all his related statements, and therefore not necessary to mention, being far subordinate to God's choice.

The same sort of criticism of other Reformed/Calvinist writers and speakers keeps showing its face in current times. One glaring example mocks John MacArthur as though he believed that the elect should behave no differently from pagans.

There are statements, from Calvin and others, where God's choice is emphasized to contrast to the enormity of the notion that human choice is first with God responding to our will. These are perhaps the statements most easily taken to mean that humans do not choose. But Calvinism does not teach that we do not choose. It doesn't even claim that we do not choose in the matter of Salvation.

This reminds me of my Arminian-leaning uncle asking me to justify Limited Atonement. In his mind, it needed justification. In my mind, Unlimited Atonement needed justification.
It is interesting that when someone (not meaning you) runs out of answers they start kicking the player instead of the ball. :)
 
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That very well may be your opinion but it isn't the opinion of Calvinists I have known or predestination as I understood it when I was a Calvinist.
We all have our own theological opinion, and because no one is born again better than anyone else (except those who effluent doesn't stink), then no-one's opinion is better than anyone else's. This is why we have forums so that we can give our opinions and learn from the opinions of others. What causes conflict and argument is when something thinks their opinion is superior to others.
 
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1) First of all, we are agreed that it is about his works, and not the works of man.

2) Secondly, it is not about his omniscience, it is about his foreknowledge. . .they are not the same thing.
Omniscience is knowledge, foreknowledge is execution of what was foreordained to be executed at some point in time.

Acts 15:18 - 'Known to the Lord for ages is his work.'

Isaiah 48:3 - 'I foretold (predestined) the former things of long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly
I acted (executed), and they came to pass.'

See Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 37:26.

God executed in their present the choice and purpose he made (predestined) before they were created;
i.e., he executed (accomplished) his foreknowledge (his previous choice and purpose)."

3) Thirdly, Scripture gives no "time line" for Isaiah 48:3 of how long ago this foreknowledge is and, therefore, "from eternity to eternity" cannot be excluded, particularly since God is eternal and does not exist on a timeline. We can't blame eternal on the pagans.

Sorry, that "blasphemy" cannot be escaped if God is both omniscient and Creator, which he is.
It's baked into creation.

Areed. . .however, we must understand it correctly.

However, Acts 15:18, is not about his omniscience of all things, but is about his foreknowledge of his works, which foreknowledge is not a matter of observation, but a matter of God's decreed action, per Isaiah 48:3.

Not at all. . .his foreknowledge regarding the universe is of all his actions, to the end of time, not just of creation.

Acts 15:18 is not about "full knowledge;" i.e., omniscience, it's about divine foreknowledge, two different things, the former a matter of observation, the latter a matter of decree and action.

God is not omniscient if he does not know all things, past, present and future.
Your God is too small, and his arm is too short.

Isaiah 48:3 presents God's foreknowledge as decreeing his future actions, which actions are the subject of his foreknowledge.

Divine foreknowledge is about God's future actions, not about man's future actions.
I see you have read Gordon Olson's book "The Foreknowledge of God", because that was exactly what he taught.
 
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Clare73

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If the reprobate have no choice about their destiny then they can't be judged at the Judgement because they were made reprobate under duress, having their personal choice taken from them.
You've been a busy little bee out here. . .

None of which means no free choice according to the Biblical meaning of free will; i.e.,
"the power to choose (execute) voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what one prefers, likes."

They freely chose what they preferred. . .which choice has its consequences.
 
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Clare73

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The reality is that there is no "free will" at all.
Unconverted sinners are slaves to sin. They don't have free will.
Contraire. . .

All have Biblical free will:
"the power to choose (execute) voluntarily without external force or constraint, what one prefers, likes." (i.e., free agent)

Sinners freely choose what they prefer--sin, the consequences of which is eternal death.

You can't blame it on God that they prefer sin, that's Adam's doing.
 
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The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their own mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice.
Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.
Exegesis is determining the author's intention, and how he understood the things that he wrote, as well as how his readers understood his writing in the light of their historical and cultural environment. It is using the who, what, where, how, when and why approach. It is not interpretation. It is getting ourselves into the author's and readers' shoes. The basis is seeing what the author actually wrote and not what we think he wrote. We also need to see whether the text is historical narrative which is mainly descriptive, but no necessary prescriptive for instructing people. For example, Elijah called fire down from heaven on the altar at Mt Carmel, which is descriptive historical narrative, but not prescriptive in the sense that any believer can do the same. Some other references are prescriptive, involving instructions that God's people are to follow. The elements of the Law in Deuteronomy were prescriptive for Old Covenant folk, but descriptive for New Covenant believers, because we are no longer obligated to the Mosaic Law.

Once we get the exegesis sorted out, then we use hermeneutics to bring our interpretation of the text, which, if the exegesis has been done thoroughly, our interpretation is more likely to be reliable.

Eisegesis is reading into the text things that are not there. Either taking away what is actually there, or adding something in. For example, I heard a sermon recently where the Israelites where instructed to bring the silver and gold from Jericho to the treasury, but the preacher said "the House of God" instead. He was using the reference to teach on tithing. He was using eisegesis by changing the text to mean something different to what was actually said. The preacher went on to say that the silver and gold were the first fruits of the Jericho victory, and linked it to every Israelite presenting their fruits and first born children and animals to the Lord. He related that to people giving the first 10% of their before tax wages to the church as their tithe. He then went on to say that Jesus, being the first born of God is "our tithe", that God tithed Jesus to us, therefore we should tithe our money to "the House of God" namely to the preacher's church. This is a blatant example of interpretation based on eisegesis, causing him to teach absolute blasphemy against Jesus Himself. That example of eisegesis is just one of many taught in churches to suit the preachers' personal theology.
 
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