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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Presbyterian Continuist

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God can partially control the actions of man, putting constraints on their actions, these constraints allow him to control certain events in the future. I discuss this possibility here Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry and I say it is a possibility only because we can take the word of God too far one way or the other.

But I bring to your remembrance:

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Does God really know everything before it happens? If he knew how man would turn out he would not have created man.

However, there is the argument that God can not know the future until He initiates a creation, if He indeed is outside of time. Yet this seems to defeat the purpose of foreknowledge, for he is still out of control. This comes back to the constraints argument He would still need constraints on creation.
Gordon Olson quotes that reference as part of his open theist theology, which says that God cannot know the future because it doesn't exist yet. He's pretty logical and persuasive and I believed it for a while and got into trouble in my Charismatic church when I shared it with people. I was accused of being "off" in my theology. Another convincing reference is about Judas. Mr Olson said that if Jesus knew beforehand that Judas was going to betray Him, why did He appoint him to be one of the twelve disciples? Olson also said that God knowing every detail of the future is a philosophical concept, not a Biblical one.

I think that there is a lot of mystery about whether God actually knows the future or not. It is quite true that where He foretold future events through His prophets, like Daniel and Isaiah, it was that He was planning for those events to happen. That is how Olson views the foreknowledge of God. He says that God not knowing what we are going to do in the future makes the Christian life exciting because we are not locked into a pre-planned "box" but have a great range of choice about our future, along with the guidance of the Spirit when God thinks it is necessary. Olson's theology means that there is no pre-ordained plan for our lives, but the Holy Spirit works with us as we navigate through our life with the Lord. Olson's theology tends more toward Arminianism than Calvinism, because it makes reprobation and election in our hands through our choices, rather than have each predetermined beforehand.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No it’s posters on the forum I deal with on a daily basis who claim the sin by the minute, hour , day, week , month , year habitually and it never stops when scripture says the opposite that those who practice sin , make it a habit will not enter the kingdom of God . That’s the issue
Yes, agreed. I can only thank God, that he will complete whatever he set out to do. That fact is my only hope, and it is my joy. It's almost like it doesn't even have anything to do with me, yet I CANNOT continue in sin. The fear that grips me at my sin isn't about my own eternal security, but about against whom I have sinned. His forebearance and willingness to die for me is beyond comprehension.

Yet I keep hearing here, that Calvinism is not about God's love! Balderdash!
 
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Mark Quayle

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Gordon Olson quotes that reference as part of his open theist theology, which says that God cannot know the future because it doesn't exist yet. He's pretty logical and persuasive and I believed it for a while and got into trouble in my Charismatic church when I shared it with people. I was accused of being "off" in my theology. Another convincing reference is about Judas. Mr Olson said that if Jesus knew beforehand that Judas was going to betray Him, why did He appoint him to be one of the twelve disciples? Olson also said that God knowing every detail of the future is a philosophical concept, not a Biblical one.

I think that there is a lot of mystery about whether God actually knows the future or not. It is quite true that where He foretold future events through His prophets, like Daniel and Isaiah, it was that He was planning for those events to happen. That is how Olson views the foreknowledge of God. He says that God not knowing what we are going to do in the future makes the Christian life exciting because we are not locked into a pre-planned "box" but have a great range of choice about our future, along with the guidance of the Spirit when God thinks it is necessary. Olson's theology means that there is no pre-ordained plan for our lives, but the Holy Spirit works with us as we navigate through our life with the Lord. Olson's theology tends more toward Arminianism than Calvinism, because it makes reprobation and election in our hands through our choices, rather than have each predetermined beforehand.
Philosophical concepts are not of themselves unbiblical. As Luther implied, both Scripture AND reason are necessary. "Unless I am convinced by scripture and reason..." I think is what he said. The best theological philosophy is definitely Biblical; open theism is more philosophical than Olson seems to realize, but not Biblical. And, it is poor philosophy, ignoring some main tenets of both reason and Bible.

The notion that our eternal destiny hinges on OUR silly commitments is unhinged.
 
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Philosophical concepts are not of themselves unbiblical. As Luther implied, both Scripture AND reason are necessary. "Unless I am convinced by scripture and reason..." I think is what he said. The best theological philosophy is definitely Biblical; open theism is more philosophical than Olson seems to realize, but not Biblical. And, it is poor philosophy, ignoring some main tenets of both reason and Bible.

The notion that our eternal destiny hinges on OUR silly commitments is unhinged.
The extreme form of man's responsibility is the Pelagian Heresy. A Word-Faith preacher teaches that God can only do what we give Him permission to do. That is basically Pelagian. Both Calvin and Arminius flatly rejected Pelagius' teaching.
 
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atpollard

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First, read my passage from the Early Church Farther Iranaeus who knew Paul - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 in What is wrong with Calvinism ? . It shows clearly that the early church believed in 100% free will.
Iranaeus was BORN 60 years after Paul DIED.
Your “appeal to authority” fallacy is flawed.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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What a loathsome notion of God.

St Thomas’ account of predestination is not quite the same as that of Calvin. So I question whether that of St Anselm is.
What is Thomas' account of predestination and where is it in the NT
 
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atpollard

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Unacceptable...it must mean to predict the outcome of a person's free will decision will indeed be fulfilled.

Iow, predestination refers to prediction, not to causation.
[Ezekiel 36:26 NASB95] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

“Prediction” or “Causation”?
 
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iwbswiaihl

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Gordon Olson quotes that reference as part of his open theist theology, which says that God cannot know the future because it doesn't exist yet. He's pretty logical and persuasive and I believed it for a while and got into trouble in my Charismatic church when I shared it with people. I was accused of being "off" in my theology. Another convincing reference is about Judas. Mr Olson said that if Jesus knew beforehand that Judas was going to betray Him, why did He appoint him to be one of the twelve disciples? Olson also said that God knowing every detail of the future is a philosophical concept, not a Biblical one.

I think that there is a lot of mystery about whether God actually knows the future or not. It is quite true that where He foretold future events through His prophets, like Daniel and Isaiah, it was that He was planning for those events to happen. That is how Olson views the foreknowledge of God. He says that God not knowing what we are going to do in the future makes the Christian life exciting because we are not locked into a pre-planned "box" but have a great range of choice about our future, along with the guidance of the Spirit when God thinks it is necessary. Olson's theology means that there is no pre-ordained plan for our lives, but the Holy Spirit works with us as we navigate through our life with the Lord. Olson's theology tends more toward Arminianism than Calvinism, because it makes reprobation and election in our hands through our choices, rather than have each predetermined beforehand.
So God doesn't know and this Gordon Olson does, you are really not saying anything close to what the scripture actually say and I could easily post scriptures to contradict your opinions, but it doesn't seem as though you take the word of God to be infallible, do you? I will just show one of many, and to be frank, if someone does not believe God, they surely are not a Christian, because that is how becomes a Christian, 1Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior. John 14:6
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Numbers 23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it. 1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.” James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Hebrews 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. There are just a few you certainly need to find a bible believing church that the inspired word of God who is omniscience, who knows everything even before it happens, omnipresent, He is Spirit, every where there is a where! plus what can't be seen, He sees it and doesn't need a telescope. Paul speaking of Jesus in Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Praying that you were read the bible and come to believe the truth for yourself and family.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I am in complete agreement that all who perish, as well as all those who are saved, are so by their own choice.
But you do not believe:

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

And that is the key, your doctrine makes God look like a monster, that there are some to whom He gives, no choice, no hope. You focus on wrath, not God's mercy.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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I said the opposite MacArthur does not believe that . I’ve read most all his books over the years and my library if full of them and his commentaries .

Don't tell me I posting on another one of your replying statemen when I thought someone was replying to you, I may not only be losing my mind but my eyesight. You may or may not remember one of Brenda Lee's songs, but will reply with the line of her songs, I'm Sorry, so sorry that I was such a fool. Have a good evening.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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So God doesn't know and this Gordon Olson does, you are really not saying anything close to what the scripture actually say and I could easily post scriptures to contradict your opinions, but it doesn't seem as though you take the word of God to be infallible, do you? I will just show one of many, and to be frank, if someone does not believe God, they surely are not a Christian, because that is how becomes a Christian, 1Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior. John 14:6
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Numbers 23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it. 1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.” James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Hebrews 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. There are just a few you certainly need to find a bible believing church that the inspired word of God who is omniscience, who knows everything even before it happens, omnipresent, He is Spirit, every where there is a where! plus what can't be seen, He sees it and doesn't need a telescope. Paul speaking of Jesus in Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Praying that you were read the bible and come to believe the truth for yourself and family.
I didn't say that I hold to Gordon Olson's theology today. I did once during the 1970s, but I now believe that God knows every detail of the future. How He does it, I have no idea, but if the Bible says He does, then I believe it because the Holy Spirit who spoke through Peter does not lie. He is the Spirit of truth. Therefore if the Holy Spirit says that God has elected those who receive Christ through His foreknowledge and because of it wrote their names in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, I believe Him.

So, all I said in my post was my description of Gordon Olson's open theist theology. I am not an open theist. I am Calvinist Puritan believing in the restoration of the gifts of the Spirit in our time.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Another convincing reference is about Judas. Mr Olson said that if Jesus knew beforehand that Judas was going to betray Him, why did He appoint him to be one of the twelve disciples?

I mention this case on my webiste:

God can raise people up for a good or bad purpose. Judas was one who was given a sad purpose, the betrayal of Jesus. But I believe even as the scripture says:

Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to let his wrath and his power be seen, for a long time put up with the vessels of wrath which were ready for destruction:

Judas had beforehand, in his earlier life disqualified himself from eternal life, God had put up with his behavior then got sick of it. Jesus saying of him at the time of working with him:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

So why was Judas, a devil, or chosen to betray Jesus, why? He was a thief.

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Judas had a lifestyle of stealing. Now we see that other thieves have been redeemed so I am not saying a thief can’t be saved, we see one of the robbers on the cross was forgiven and made it to heaven. What I am saying is our lifestyle determine our outcome.

I don't believe Judas was always classed as "a devil", Jesus knows who has received or denied His light. Judas was chosen for the very reason, that "scripture be fulfilled", he had denied the truth long before Jesus choose him. If Judas in his life had not denied the light given to him, maybe someone else would have been chosen to betray Jesus not Judas.

It is quite simple, God gives light to all men coming into the world, our response to it determines whether we are condemned or justified.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Joh 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."​

This idea is also backed by Iranaeus, who wrote the document Against Herasies, shortly after the time of the apostles.

And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans
If you read the whole passage from Iranaeus you will see the Church Father believed strongly in free will. A part I didi not post earlier was pasasge 5. But it speaks of faith in teh same way, being a choice.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)​
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Iranaeus was BORN 60 years after Paul DIED.
Your “appeal to authority” fallacy is flawed.

Yeah I realized i had miss quoted, I adjusted the text, I was thinking of Polycarp. But Iranaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, a man who knew Paul. Let's just say I would rather believe a man who by a 60 year gap tells me what to believe, about God's infinite love, rather than someone 2000 years later, with no connection to Paul.
 
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I mention this case on my webiste:

God can raise people up for a good or bad purpose. Judas was one who was given a sad purpose, the betrayal of Jesus. But I believe even as the scripture says:

Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to let his wrath and his power be seen, for a long time put up with the vessels of wrath which were ready for destruction:

Judas had beforehand, in his earlier life disqualified himself from eternal life, God had put up with his behavior then got sick of it. Jesus saying of him at the time of working with him:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

So why was Judas, a devil, or chosen to betray Jesus, why? He was a thief.

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Judas had a lifestyle of stealing. Now we see that other thieves have been redeemed so I am not saying a thief can’t be saved, we see one of the robbers on the cross was forgiven and made it to heaven. What I am saying is our lifestyle determine our outcome.

I don't believe Judas was always classed as "a devil", Jesus knows who has received or denied His light. Judas was chosen for the very reason, that "scripture be fulfilled", he had denied the truth long before Jesus choose him. If Judas in his life had not denied the light given to him, maybe someone else would have been chosen to betray Jesus not Judas.

It is quite simple, God gives light to all men coming into the world, our response to it determines whether we are condemned or justified.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Joh 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."​

This idea is also backed by Iranaeus, who wrote the document Against Herasies, shortly after the time of the apostles.

And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans
If you read the whole passage from Iranaeus you will see the Church Father believed strongly in free will. A part I didi not post earlier was pasasge 5. But it speaks of faith in teh same way, being a choice.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)​
I can live with that. :)
 
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This thread is pretty awesome. I hope it doesn't lose steam.
It has survived for 600 more. Your last post was not even half-way (which at the time of writing would be post 569). In 62 posts’ time, there will be 1200.
 
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I can live with that. :)
You are not implying that God made him betray Jesus are you? The scriptures do say that he was a thief from the beginning! John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.
 
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