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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Presbyterian Continuist

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You are not implying that God made him betray Jesus are you? The scriptures do say that he was a thief from the beginning! John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.
(From formerly known as Oscarr): If God had made Judas betray Jesus, he would plead duress at the judgment and he would have had to be acquitted. No. Judas chose of his own free will to betray Jesus, and he will be judged on that choice. Because he had a track record of making sinful choices, he allowed Satan to enter his heart which led to the tragic outcome.
 
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atpollard

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Let's just say I would rather believe a man who by a 60 year gap tells me what to believe, about God's infinite love, rather than someone 2000 years later, with no connection to Paul.
I follow in the footsteps of the reformers that said “I’d rather believe what Paul wrote about God than the opinions of any of the men that came later.”

Sola Scriptura.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Yes, agreed. I can only thank God, that he will complete whatever he set out to do. That fact is my only hope, and it is my joy. It's almost like it doesn't even have anything to do with me, yet I CANNOT continue in sin. The fear that grips me at my sin isn't about my own eternal security, but about against whom I have sinned. His forebearance and willingness to die for me is beyond comprehension.

Yet I keep hearing here, that Calvinism is not about God's love! Balderdash!
Even when I was a staunch Calvinist I was always about Gods love. Love is how this world knows we are Christs disciples. And everything else in the Christians life is meaningless apart from love as per 1 Corinthians 13. Loving God and loving others sums up the entire law and the prophets. Sometimes we have a tendency to over complicate the basics of Christianity with theology but it all really boils down to this question.

How is your love life ?

With God and others.

hope this helps !!!
 
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misput

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But you do not believe:

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

And that is the key, your doctrine makes God look like a monster, that there are some to whom He gives, no choice, no hope. You focus on wrath, not God's mercy.
Ain't that the truth.
 
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Clare73

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It’s the greatest reason of all to reject it’s teaching .
Did you get your former "Calvinism" from your church, or from reading Calvin?

You can't read Calvin and come up with that conclusion.
 
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Clare73

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But you do not believe:

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

And that is the key, your doctrine makes God look like a monster, that there are some to whom He gives, no choice, no hope. You focus on wrath, not God's mercy.
Ain't that the truth.
And you know this how?

What does that have to do with free choice?
Really? is that true, God "predestines", some to salvation, some to damnation. They are given no choice. Love, as we know is spurred by action. Calvinistic thinking is not love.
Calvin doesn't teach they have no choice.
They go either to glory or damnation by their personal choice.
 
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Clare73

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First, read my passage from the Early Church Farther Iranaeus who knew Paul - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 in What is wrong with Calvinism ? . It shows clearly that the early church believed in 100% free will.

As for:

John 6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.​

To who did Jesus say God will draw?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​
There is no denial of "free will" ("free will" nowhere stated in the Bible, except for the word "voluntary") in Calvin that I have found.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Did you get your former "Calvinism" from your church, or from reading Calvin?

You can't read Calvin and come up with that conclusion.
I was dutch reformed as a new believer from 1980-84. I was raised Lutheran prior to that. I have the institutes , the WCF and all the major Theological works by Calvinists. I'm very well acquainted with TULIP and have taught it for decades. So I do not speak from ignorance but from being a staunch calvinist for decades and from personal experience within calvinism for the same time period.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Clare73

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I was dutch reformed as a new believer from 1980-84. I was raised Lutheran prior to that.
I have the institutes
,
Have you read them, particularly Book III?
the WCF and all the major Theological works by Calvinists. I'm very well acquainted with TULIP and have taught it for decades. So I do not speak from ignorance but from being a staunch calvinist for decades and from personal experience within calvinism for the same time period.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Clare73

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Mark Quayle

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Yes.
Read Charles Spurgeon.
Not that I say that the Bible is Calvinism, because I admit that Calvinism mainly focuses on some particular aspects of the Bible, but I could say, "Yes. Read the Bible."
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Calvin doesn't teach they have no choice.
They go either to glory or damnation by their personal choice.
Actually the doctrine of predestination as taught by Calvin has nothing whatsoever to do with mans choice, decision or will but Gods alone.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Actually the doctrine of predestination as taught by Calvin has nothing whatsoever to do with mans choice, decision or will but Gods alone.
It's kind of funny, to me, how the way someone puts something, and emphasizes something, is taken to mean something else by others.

According to Scripture, God's choice alone saves. But Scripture also says we choose him.

But Scripture also shows that our choices do not add to God's. And that God acts by use of means. It's not as though our choices cause God's choices, but it seems that way to us. God chose, therefore, it would behoove us to choose God. That may seem artificial, yet none of us even CAN truly choose him, apart from him working in us what he has chosen to do. It is not we who make our choosing real, but he.
 
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RickReads

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It's kind of funny, to me, how the way someone puts something, and emphasizes something, is taken to mean something else by others.

According to Scripture, God's choice alone saves. But Scripture also says we choose him.

But Scripture also shows that our choices do not add to God's. And that God acts by use of means. It's not as though our choices cause God's choices, but it seems that way to us. God chose, therefore, it would behoove us to choose God. That may seem artificial, yet none of us even CAN truly choose him, apart from him working in us what he has chosen to do. It is not we who make our choosing real, but he.

I think it's needful to note that you are talking scriptures and he is talking about what Calvins believe.
Not the same thing as you just showed by avoiding Calvinism in order to be able to contrast his point.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I think it's needful to note that you are talking scriptures and he is talking about what Calvins believe.
Not the same thing as you just showed by avoiding Calvinism in order to be able to contrast his point.

I was trying to be nice. To say it more plainly, Calvin does not deny choice, but emphasizes God's choice as supreme. Human choice is assumed in all his related statements, and therefore not necessary to mention, being far subordinate to God's choice.

The same sort of criticism of other Reformed/Calvinist writers and speakers keeps showing its face in current times. One glaring example mocks John MacArthur as though he believed that the elect should behave no differently from pagans.

There are statements, from Calvin and others, where God's choice is emphasized to contrast to the enormity of the notion that human choice is first with God responding to our will. These are perhaps the statements most easily taken to mean that humans do not choose. But Calvinism does not teach that we do not choose. It doesn't even claim that we do not choose in the matter of Salvation.

This reminds me of my Arminian-leaning uncle asking me to justify Limited Atonement. In his mind, it needed justification. In my mind, Unlimited Atonement needed justification.
 
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RickReads

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I was trying to be nice. To say it more plainly, Calvin does not deny choice, but emphasizes God's choice as supreme. Human choice is assumed in all his related statements, and therefore not necessary to mention, being far subordinate to God's choice.

The same sort of criticism of other Reformed/Calvinist writers and speakers keeps showing its face in current times. One glaring example mocks John MacArthur as though he believed that the elect should behave no differently from pagans.

There are statements, from Calvin and others, where God's choice is emphasized to contrast to the enormity of the notion that human choice is first with God responding to our will. These are perhaps the statements most easily taken to mean that humans do not choose. But Calvinism does not teach that we do not choose. It doesn't even claim that we do not choose in the matter of Salvation.

This reminds me of my Arminian-leaning uncle asking me to justify Limited Atonement. In his mind, it needed justification. In my mind, Unlimited Atonement needed justification.

That very well may be your opinion but it isn't the opinion of Calvinists I have known or predestination as I understood it when I was a Calvinist.
 
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Clare73

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Actually the doctrine of predestination as taught by
Calvin has nothing whatsoever to do with mans choice, decision or will but Gods alone.
In the NT, all have a choice to believe or not to believe.
No one is forced to believe against his will.
 
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Clare73

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I think it's needful to note that you are talking scriptures and
he is talking about what Calvins believe.
Not the same thing as you just showed by avoiding Calvinism in order to be able to contrast his point.
Do you personally know all "Calvins" that you can state what they believe?
 
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roman2819

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Eloquently stated.

The verses of John 6:65, 6:37 and 6:39 are not inconsistent with or contradictory to free will. (literal Greek reads differently…NASB says “And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father….” Another literal Greek says “no one is able to come to me unless it has been granted by the Father.”

However, God didn’t cause the people to act.

During biblical times, the manner of writing Scriptures is different from our modern language. Therefore words such as God granted to them to believe should not be read with our modern perspective. During 2000 BC -to 4000 BC, they won't say they chose to believe God or accept Jesus as saviour. Instead they said that God chose them . Back then, people were subservient to gods or divine beings, and it was not only the Jews, but also Persians, Babylonians and even Chinese in ancient middle kingdom.

Eloquently stated.

Saul to Paul is an illustration of God calling to Saul, and Saul choosing to act upon the calling, and Saul freely acting to “come” to Jesus and God grants what Saul is seeking.

Yes likewise today, God is calling people to repent, but people have free will to reject or believe.


God “weakly actualizes” events. Pharoah is a fine illustration. God did not cause Pharoah to act such that Pharoah had no free choice to act. Rather, God foreknew (I pause here to acknowledge that arguably “foreknew” might have a different meaning from all knowing/omniscient but the Biblical support is relatively week…regardless the label isn’t important but the substance) A.) What and how Pharoah would freely act in response to B.) what God and Moses do such that C) God intervened in a specific way that he knew would have Pharoah freely act in a specific manner as a response).

Egypt was the most powerful empire in the region at that time, and Pharaoh was king and commander of a powerful army. Would such a powerful figure listened to lone ranger Moses who has no army? In Egyptian tradition, pharaoh is a semi-deity. We cannot expect him to fear the Hebrew god when he had never seen the power of Jehovah. So pharaoh didn't like Moses. In Egyptian tradition, pharaoh is a semi-deity. We cannot expect him to fear God when he had never seen the power of Jehovah. As well, Moses was pharaoh's half-brother , a criminal who killed someone many years ago and fled Egypt.

If pharaoh just let the slaves walk, he would be incurring the anger and scorn of his people - so surely he won't? Many Egyptians owned slaves to do household chores. Salves also worked on public projects, probably built roads and pyramids. There was more than 200,000 male slaves according to Numbers. If Pharaoh let them walk free, his people would call him an imbecile for listening to one prophet,

God said to Moses that He would harden Pharaoh's heart. This caused many Christians to mistaken that if Jehovah had not hardened Pharaoh's heart, the latter would let them go. But would he? We need to understand that the Bible asserted God's sovereignty and portrayed God as supreme - this is the way of writing. Unaware of this, today we tend to read the Scripture with a modern perspective.

Before God sent the 10 plagues, the pharaoh did not know the God of the Hebrews and His mighty power. Indeed we cannot really accuse pharaoh of pride - he was only acting human when he refused to accede to Moses' demand.

Above summary is adapted from Understanding prayer, Faith and God's will :

Pharaoh was not aware of God’s power (which means He would not have let the slaves go). However, he was not ignorant of the Hebrews’ belief. Four hundred years earlier, God had told Abraham that his descendants would be enslaved, and after being freed, they would settle in a land of their own. This was the Covenant, which had been passed down from one generation to another. Even the Egyptians would have heard about it from their household slaves. During those times, God did not reveal Himself to the Hebrews much. As they lived out their existence, their faith in Him was not strong. Occasionally, they might burn incense and offer doves as sacrifices, as Abraham did. After six to eight generations – which was almost an eternity to us but not to God – the Lord called Moses to lead them out of Egypt. Even though some Hebrews would look forward to deliverance, many would say that it was just a myth,

When Moses appeared to make the prophecy happen, Pharaoh was defiant – he did not want to be remembered as the one who let the slaves walk away. His resistance was neither unusual nor surprising for any king that was in power. However, the Scriptures did not indulge us with such explanations. Instead, it placed God at the apex and simply said that He hardened Pharaoh’s heart. The Bible depicted God as the cause and did not distinguish between what the He permitted or what He consciously planned. If we understand that this was the manner of writing in religious manuscript, then we will not read these words literally. And if we give thoughts to how any king or politician would normally behave when their authority was challenged, we will realize that God did not have to influence Pharaoh.

After the Lord sent the ten plagues, however, the intense sufferings of the Egyptians compelled Pharaoh to let the Hebrews leave. Soon, however, out of political pressure and personal pride, he wanted to bring them back. Although the horrors of the plagues were still fresh in his mind, yet he could not give up. Pride – a refusal to believe that he could not win – was certainly one reason. However, the more important consideration was political survival. Pharaoh had to act, otherwise his people would mock him for doing nothing. Ministers and members of royal family would say that he was ineffectual, scared, unworthy to rule. However, he knew that to give chase would most certainly spell defeat – it was a predicament indeed.

In the end, Pharaoh made a shrewd decision and led six hundred chariots to pursue the Hebrew slaves [Exodus 14:7]. Whether God sent wind or sandstorm to stop them, he would not be accused of doing nothing. He had to be ready to perish too, but he reckoned that if death was inevitable, so be it; he had to show that he was not cowardly - and maybe he was brave. In the end, he survived while the cohort perished in the Red Sea. People and ministers saw that he did put up a fight, but God was just too mighty. Whether they said he was brave or rash, no one could accuse him of being lame. The chase did not bring back the slaves, but it restored his moral authority to rule – which was most important for him; it might even have been the real intent of the mission.

When the Bible narrates events, it does not delve into explanations or indulge us with details. Instead, everything is condensed into a few passages or verses. We need to consider how things happen at ground level, how people would act. For example: Sarah was angered when Hagar became arrogant when she was able to bear a child for Abraham. Scripture does not tell us how Abraham felt but he must had been in a predicament, feeling confused, upset and torn. Wouldn't it agony to send away someone who carried his flesh and blood? But the Bible does not say all these.
 
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