What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[iwbswiaihl]

It seems you are talking about proof that one is elected, rather than about the fact that God elects.

Exactly, that is what I am saying, the word of God start the faith and the word draws us to the Savior. That is why it is so important to encourage all to read the word of God, look at these words that demonstrate the power and authority in the word of inspired word of God: Isaiah 55:8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower. And bread to the eater,11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. Romans 8:17 Son then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

 

[ReverendRV]

Exactly, that is what I am saying, the word of God start the faith and the word draws us to the Savior. That is why it is so important to encourage all to read the word of God, look at these words that demonstrate the power and authority in the word of inspired word of God: Isaiah 55:8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower. And bread to the eater,11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. Romans 8:17 Son then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Excellent !

 

[misput]

But the NT revels they were lost from birth (Romans 5:18), by nature objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).
If they reject Jesus, they just remain lost and objects of wrath.

Those in hell are there because they are born condemned by the guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18).
Those not in hell are not there because they believed in Jesus' sacrifice to pay their penalty for sin which puts one in hell.

Doesn't Jesus disagree with that assessment in John 17:12, calling him a "son of perdition," and in Matthew 26:24, that "it were better for him had he not been born"?
And if Pharaoh died with that hardened heart, he received the same fate as all those born of Adam who are not saved.

Your out of context misinterpretation of Rom. 5:18 causes you to think multitudes of folks are going to hell that never heard of the Lord. Wow!
"son of perdition," means son of destruction, he destroyed himself physically and this may have been an act of repentance for him. The point is, judging individuals to hell or heaven is not in our job description. You are doing well if you know your own destination for sure. I still think you may be into Clareism & literalism : )

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Calvinism is no free will?

I understand free will differently as presented in the NT.
I understand free will to be presented in the Bible as the power/ability to choose, without external force or constraint, what one likes, prefers.

However, the will does not operate in a vacuum.
It is governed by the disposition--what one likes, prefers.
God works in the disposition (Philippians 2:13) of the unregenerate, giving men to prefer his will, which they then freely choose because that is what they prefer.

I don't see God as violating one's free will, but as using one's free will to save them.

Although it is the Lord that brings the lost to salvation by the word of God convicting the sinners that they need faith in Jesus as their Savior the verses of Phil 2:12 and 13 in particular are speaking to the saints in Philippi. That letter as it says is from : Phil 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. You can and should read on down to the verses in chapter 2 of v12 and 13 where it is telling the saints to work out what has been placed into their hearts that the Lord would have them do to become the light in the world that demonstrates to other the work of the Holy Spirit in them in the transformation process. 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; (put into practice the inner working of the Holy Spirit in their lives)13 for it is God who works "in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure". Everyone who says that they are in Christ should be desiring to be transformed into His image by the convicting and leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Our thoughts and desires should start after having confessing Him as our Savior, to be giving us the "want to" to be more the light in the world of Jesus in us, we want to not yield or obey the fleshly desires, we want to be the witness He desires us to be, we are given the abilities to be His witness to others, saints and the lost, to be becoming more like Him in our practice, this is the evidence of Him in us, to His glory. As He says in John 14:15 if you love Me keep my commandments, and 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” I hope I have shown in context, the point I was trying to make to help you see the importance for all of us to stay in context with our verse references, I too am often stating verses out of context and try to careful not to allow myself to do that, I in particular need to also proof read all I type of the point I want to make because I often type something I later wish I had deleted or changed the wording. Have a great day.

 

[Clare73]

Your "out of context misinterpretation" of Rom. 5:18

Are you sure about that?

So what is the context of Romans 5:12-21?
It would be the unrighteousness of all mankind (demonstrated in Romans 1:18-3:8 and concluded in Romans 3:9-20) and God's gift of righteousness, of "sin reigning in death (per Romans 6:23), and grace reigning through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:21)

And the unrighteousness of all mankind is due to the imputed guilt of Adam to all mankind (Romans 5:18), as demonstrated in Romans 5:12-14; i.e., all death is caused by sin against (covenantal) law (Romans 6:23), yet all died because of the guilt of sin when there was no covenantal law (i.e., Genesis 2:17; Mosaic law) to sin against causing their death.
So of what were they guilty which caused their deaths?
They were guilty of the imputed guilt of Adam, causing the condemnation of all mankind (Romans 5:18).
All those born of (the first) Adam are condemned by the imputed guilt of (the first) Adam, just as
all those reborn of (the second Adam) Christ, by faith are redeemed by the imputed righteousness of (the second) Adam (Romans 5:18-19), the first Adam being the pattern for the second Adam (!), Christ (Romans 5:14).

causes you to think multitudes of folks are going to hell that never heard of the Lord. Wow!

When corrupt human reasoning misappropriates the words of other humans, it is not surprising when it also misappropriates the word of God in Romans 5:12-21.

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black ("out of context misinterpretation").

"son of perdition," means son of destruction,

"Perdition" refers to spiritual and eternal destruction (Matthew 7:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:3),

he destroyed himself physically

He committed suicide in despair, murdering himself and breaking another commandment.

and this may have been an act of repentance for him.

Only when murder is an act of repentance.

The point is, judging individuals to hell or heaven is not in our job description.

Agreed.
But it is in the job description of the word of God written where it does do so.

You are doing well if you know your own destination for sure. I still think you may be into Clareism & literalism : )

Literalism? . . .as in taking Scripture at its word.
Indeed, I am!

And finally, it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate your assertion of Biblical error, if it is to have any Biblical merit.

 

[ReverendRV]

Are you sure about that?

So what is the context of Romans 5:12-21?
It would be the unrighteousness of all mankind (demonstrated in Romans 1:18-3:8 and concluded in Romans 3:9-20) and God's gift of righteousness, of "sin reigning in death (per Romans 6:23), and grace reigning through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:21)

And the unrighteousness of all mankind is due to the imputed guilt of Adam to all mankind (Romans 5:18), as demonstrated in Romans 5:12-14; i.e., all death is caused by sin against (covenantal) law (Romans 6:23), yet all died because of the guilt of sin when there was no covenantal law (i.e., Genesis 2:17; Mosaic law) to sin against causing their death.
So of what were they guilty which caused their deaths?
They were guilty of the imputed guilt of Adam, causing the condemnation of all mankind (Romans 5:18).
All those born of (the first) Adam are condemned by the imputed guilt of (the first) Adam, just as
all those reborn of (the second Adam) Christ, by faith are redeemed by the imputed righteousness of (the second) Adam (Romans 5:18-19), the first Adam being the pattern for the second Adam (!), Christ (Romans 5:14).
When corrupt human reasoning misappropriates the words of other humans, it is not surprising when it also misappropriates the word of God in Romans 5:12-21.

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black ("out of context misinterpretation").

"Perdition" refers to spiritual and eternal destruction (Matthew 7:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:3),

He committed suicide in despair, murdering himself and breaking another commandment.

Only when murder is an act of repentance.

Agreed.
But it is in the job description of the word of God written where it does do so.

Literalism? . . .as in taking Scripture at its word.
Indeed, I am!

And finally, it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate your assertion of Biblical error, if it is to have any Biblical merit.

And remember, every Christian believes in the Unconditional Consequences of the Fall of Man. This is why you are correct about Romans 5...

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Your out of context misinterpretation of Rom. 5:18 causes you to think multitudes of folks are going to hell that never heard of the Lord. Wow!
"son of perdition," means son of destruction, he destroyed himself physically and this may have been an act of repentance for him. The point is, judging individuals to hell or heaven is not in our job description. You are doing well if you know your own destination for sure. I still think you may be into Clareism & literalism : )

Calvin taught man are in 2 camps. Those predetermined/predestined to salvation or destruction before creation. Man can only do what was predetermined by God. So God chose most humanity for hell/eternal torment and a few for salvation. They use Jesus words you did not choose Me but I chose you. No one has a free will to choose God. God must draw/drag you first to Him ( against your will ) and regenerate you prior to belief and repentance. This is Calvinism 101 and I taught this for over 4 decades and its wrong. If God is really Love then calvinism is wrong. They will also elevate Gods hate above His love. They focus on the negative aspects of God to defend their beliefs.

In fact in both the Institutes of Calvin and the WCF Gods is Love is missing from the list of Gods attributes. Its obvious why if God is truly Love then their doctrines in tulip and double predestination collapse. Those doctrines are the exact opposite of love.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ReverendRV]

Calvin taught man are in 2 camps. Those predetermined/predestined to salvation or destruction before creation. Man can only do what was predetermined by God. So God chose most humanity for hell/eternal torment and a few for salvation. They use Jesus words you did not choose Me but I chose you. No one has a free will to choose God. God must draw/drag you first to Him ( against your will ) and regenerate you prior to belief and repentance. This is Calvinism 101 and I taught this for over 4 decades and its wrong. If God is really Love then calvinism is wrong. They will also elevate Gods hate above His love. They focus on the negative aspects of God to defend their beliefs.

In fact in both the Institutes of Calvin and the WCF Gods is Love is missing from the list of Gods attributes. Its obvious why if God is truly Love then their doctrines in tulip and double predestination collapse. Those doctrines are the exact opposite of love.

hope this helps !!!

Wow, you have your green light on!

 

[Clare73]

Although it is the Lord that brings the lost to salvation by the word of God convicting the sinners that they need faith in Jesus as their Savior the verses of Phil 2:12 and 13 in particular are speaking to the saints in Philippi. That letter as it says is from : Phil 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. You can and should read on down to the verses in chapter 2 of v12 and 13 where it is telling the saints to work out what has been placed into their hearts that the Lord would have them do to become the light in the world that demonstrates to other the work of the Holy Spirit in them in the transformation process. 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; (put into practice the inner working of the Holy Spirit in their lives)13 for it is God who works "in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure".
Everyone who says that they are in Christ should be desiring to be transformed into His image by the convicting and leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Our thoughts and desires should start after having confessing Him as our Savior, to be giving us the "want to" to be more the light in the world of Jesus in us, we want to not yield or obey the fleshly desires, we want to be the witness He desires us to be, we are given the abilities to be His witness to others, saints and the lost, to be becoming more like Him in our practice, this is the evidence of Him in us, to His glory. As He says in John 14:15 if you love Me keep my commandments, and 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

I hope I have shown in context, the point I was trying to make to help you see the importance for all of us to stay in context with our verse references, I too am often stating verses out of context and try to careful not to allow myself to do that, I in particular need to also proof read all I type of the point I want to make because I often type something I later wish I had deleted or cha;nged the wording. Have a great day.

Yes, you have shown in context that Philippians 2:13 is written to believers. . .but I understand it also of unbelievers according to:

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)
"I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me. (John 6:39)

I understand "given" as those whom God fore-knew (Romans 8:29-30), as in Matthew 7:23:
"I never knew you."

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Wow, you have your green light on!

Always everywhere except you know where. Its refreshing to be able to state your beliefs without censorship and have freedom of speech and to explain what you believe and why without being restricted. A true breath of fresh air.

 

[ReverendRV]

Always everywhere except you know where. Its refreshing to be able to state your beliefs without censorship and have freedom of speech and to explain what you believe and why without being restricted. A true breath of fresh air.

Yeah, so far so good here...

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Plus this section is "controversial" christian theology and calvin for sure falls under that umbrella.

 

[ReverendRV]

Plus this section is "controversial" christian theology and calvin for sure falls under that umbrella.

As it should; Saint Paul anticipated some Objections to it...

 

[ReverendRV]

Plus this section is "controversial" christian theology and calvin for sure falls under that umbrella.

What does the 'Supporter' emblam mean?

 

[RickReads]

Calvin taught man are in 2 camps. Those predetermined/predestined to salvation or destruction before creation. Man can only do what was predetermined by God. So God chose most humanity for hell/eternal torment and a few for salvation. They use Jesus words you did not choose Me but I chose you. No one has a free will to choose God. God must draw/drag you first to Him ( against your will ) and regenerate you prior to belief and repentance. This is Calvinism 101 and I taught this for over 4 decades and its wrong. If God is really Love then calvinism is wrong. They will also elevate Gods hate above His love. They focus on the negative aspects of God to defend their beliefs.

In fact in both the Institutes of Calvin and the WCF Gods is Love is missing from the list of Gods attributes. Its obvious why if God is truly Love then their doctrines in tulip and double predestination collapse. Those doctrines are the exact opposite of love.

hope this helps !!!

The striking thing about it all, God punished Jew and Gentile for child sacrifice and then we believe God throws people who died in infancy into His fire.

With this in mind, it must be asked what is imputed, physical death and fallen nature, or is it Adams's sin that is imputed. I`m pretty sure I know the answer to this one. God is not a hypocrite.

 

[Clare73]

Calvin taught man are in 2 camps. Those predetermined/predestined to salvation or destruction before creation. Man can only do what was predetermined by God. So God chose most humanity for hell/eternal torment and a few for salvation. They use Jesus words you did not choose Me but I chose you. No one has a free will to choose God. God must draw/drag you first to Him ( against your will ) and regenerate you prior to belief and repentance. This is Calvinism 101 and I taught this for over 4 decades and its wrong. If God is really Love then calvinism is wrong. They will also elevate Gods hate above His love. They focus on the negative aspects of God to defend their beliefs.

In fact in both the Institutes of Calvin and the WCF Gods is Love is missing from the list of Gods attributes. Its obvious why if God is truly Love then their doctrines in tulip and double predestination collapse. Those doctrines are the exact opposite of love.

hope this helps !!!

What is WCF?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Yes, you have shown in context that Philippians 2:13 is written to believers. . .but I understand it also of unbelievers according to:

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)
"I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me. (John 6:39)

I understand "given" as those whom God fore-knew (Romans 8:29-30), as in Matthew 7:23:
"I never knew you."

He does work in all who are convicted they need a Savior, God seeks the sinner first, but the point I was making was CONTEXT which I stated. Verse 2:13 was not talking to the lost person was the point. Every tub sets on its own bottom concerning value of my reply. Have a great day.

 

[Clare73]

The striking thing about it all, God punished Jew and Gentile for child sacrifice and then we believe God throws people who died in infancy into His fire.

With this in mind, it must be asked what is imputed, physical death and fallen nature, or is it Adams's sin that is imputed. I`m pretty sure I know the answer to this one. God is not a hypocrite.

Adam's guilt is imputed (just as Christ's righteousness is imputed). . .we do not inherit guilt, sin or righteousness.

Our (fallen) nature is inherited in generation, just as cat nature and snake nature are inherited in generation. . .cats don't breed snakes, and snakes don't breed cats.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

What does the 'Supporter' emblam mean?

longevity or certain amount of posts I think

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

What is WCF?

Westminster Confession of Faith