What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[iwbswiaihl]

Do you Mind if I disagree, and tell you why this isn't a Condition for Election?

I added to my other post read that and get back to me, sorry about that, I will try to read more precisely.

 

[ReverendRV]

yes, because the bible does teach there is at least one condition for sure to prove that election is a truth, one must repent and believe that Jesus is Lord. If I used the word election in its proper place. After reading your statement again, it would seem I answered the wrong question that came to my mind, now I would say from what I know about his election I would say No, it is not taught in the bible as I understand it.

No problem...

I wasn't really asking you to jump in the frying pan with me and believe in Unconditional Election; that's for a future trench. I was just asking you if Unconditional Election could be an Unconditional Consequence, like Sweating when we work is an Unconditional Consequence? I'm just asking if it's possible since the precedent has been established? I think you should say yes...

I am still in this Trench; I haven't crawled out and moved to the next trench yet. Why would I do that if I haven't run you out of that trench yet?

 

[Clare73]

Are there any Calvinists here?

I'm a "Paulist," will that work?

What kinda' rig are you driving?

 

[Clare73]

I am new as of today. I started reading and it didn't seem as if there were Calvinists here; so thanks. I myself am a Calvinist, and was invited here...

See! I told ya', Rick!

 

[ReverendRV]

I'm a "Paulist," will that work?

What kinda rig are you driving?

Hey Clare, nice to meet you...

I'm driving what I would call the most Liberal 5-Point Calvinist Rig you have ever seen. I am close to being an Arminian; but we all have to choose one side of the fence or the other. I think this is one reason I do so well in a discussion; I am so far away from being a Hyper-Calvinist, and that's what most people argue against in places like this...

 

[Clare73]

You are a Calvinist...

Oh, dear!

So Paul was a Calvinist?

Original Sin results in what you could call 'Unconditional Condemnation' for All.

"Original Sin" being the guilt of Adam imputed to and condemning all men (Romans 5:18)?

Since every Evangelical believes in the Unconditional Consequence of the Curse of Original Sin, this acceptance of Unconditional Consequences should allow for them to also accept the Unconditional Consequences of Unconditional Election. I say an outright rejection of Unconditional Election without Introspection, could only be due to an unwarranted Bias against it...

I was invited here, partly because of my unique arguments FOR 5- Point Calvinism...

 

[Clare73]

What is wrong with Calvinism? The notion that we don't have free will

Calvinism is no free will?

I understand free will differently as presented in the NT.
I understand free will to be presented in the Bible as the power/ability to choose, without external force or constraint, what one likes, prefers.

However, the will does not operate in a vacuum.
It is governed by the disposition--what one likes, prefers.
God works in the disposition (Philippians 2:13) of the unregenerate, giving men to prefer his will, which they then freely choose because that is what they prefer.

I don't see God as violating one's free will, but as using one's free will to save them.

 

[Clare73]

yes, because the bible does teach there is at least one condition for sure to prove that election is a truth, one must repent and believe that Jesus is Lord. If I used the word election in its proper place. After reading your statement again, it would seem I answered the wrong question that came to my mind, now I would say from what I know about his election I would say No, it is not taught in the bible as I understand it.

It seems you are talking about proof that one is elected, rather than about the fact that God elects.

 

[ReverendRV]

It seems you are talking about proof that one is elected, rather than about the fact that God elects.

A good way to put it is that some Candidates are Running for Election. Perhaps you and I were not Running for Election; but we were Elected because of the Write-In Ballots of God...

This Running for Election is the Crux of the Matter. Perhaps I've captured the interest of a few Posters here, who would like to hear more on this...

 

[RickReads]

I am new as of today. I started reading and it didn't seem as if there were Calvinists here; so thanks. I myself am a Calvinist, and was invited here...

Wheres @Cormack when you need him?

 

[RickReads]

A good way to put it is that some Candidates are Running for Election. Perhaps you and I were not Running for Election; but we were Elected because of the Write-In Ballots of God...

This Running for Election is the Crux of the Matter. Perhaps I've captured the interest of a few Posters here, who would like to hear more on this...

I think it would be good if you just present your case for Calvinism in your own words. I`m not too keen on what Calvin said because he isn't here and I already know the basics.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[ReverendRV]

I think it would be good if you just present your case for Calvinism in your own words. I`m not too keen on what Calvin said because he isn't here and I already know the basics.

I like to do that to. The reason I am taking this elementary approach is to get the other Posters on the same page I'm on; a page we all should be on. I'm a Fundamentalist, so we should all agree with the Fundamentals...

You may say 'Calvinism isn't a Christian Fundamental!'; but I use Fundamentals to defend Calvinism. I write Gospel Tracts, so I will Post one which defends Calvinism this way. You should enjoy it; most people love them...

 

[misput]

I believe all go to hell for violating God's laws of Scripture and of conscience, except for those who
believe in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."

You don't believe this?

I believe when a person becomes aware they are breaking God's law and hears the good news about Jesus and reject's Him, they become lost if they continue in unbelief until death. Some of the folks in Rom. 1 & 2 (you can look them up if you are interested) never heard of God or Christ so I believe creation, conscience and their reaction to these became their gospel. Like the Indians before they heard the gospel we know. God does say in these same scriptures "He is no respecter of persons", go figure.

There is Judas, (John 17:12; Matthew 26:24),

If God predestined Judas for the purpose he served, it had nothing to do with his salvation, just like Pharoah. It was just a curiosity question, no extra charge : )
PS: I don't think you are into Calvinism, more like Clareism & literalism : )

 

[ReverendRV]

I think it would be good if you just present your case for Calvinism in your own words. I`m not too keen on what Calvin said because he isn't here and I already know the basics.

Unmerited Election ~ by ReverendRV

Ephesians 2:8 KJV; For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Compared to many Christians I know, I consider myself a ‘mini-Theologian’; an ABC, 123 kind of guy. In a way, this can be advantageous; I can say something which is as true as a deep Theologian but say it in a way that’s easier to understand. There’s a Doctrine called Unconditional Election, one of the 5-Points of Calvinism; it means that God chooses you to be Saved before you choose him as your God. I said to a friend that every Evangelical believes in Unconditional Election and I could prove it. Our verse says we are Saved by Grace, which means ‘Unmerited Favor’; there is no condition we can ever meet to earn the Favor of God. God chooses people before they’ve done anything Good to deserve it or before they have done anything bad not to deserve it, that his purpose in Election will stand. I suggested to my friend that we change the name of Unconditional Election to Unmerited Election, and he said this would mean we are Saved by Grace. I said, “Now you’re getting it!” How can we be Saved any other way but by Grace?

Let me explain the problem. ~ Have you ever used the name of God as a cuss word? We take his Name in Vain and this is Blasphemy; what if someone went around running your name through the mud? Have you kept the Sabbath Day Holy? What if you invited someone to your Wedding but they decided to work in the yard instead; how would you feel? What if the person decided to choose your Fiancee for you before they would come? Shouldn’t YOUR purpose in your Engagement stand? These are just three of the Ten Commandments, not even counting Lying and Stealing; if God judged you by his standard would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Shouldn’t he choose anyone else but you to live happily ever after with him? Does this bother you? Then you should check to see if you’ve been invited…

This is what God’s invitation looks like. ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ is the Son of God and he was the Sinless sacrifice which appeases the Wrath of God against Sinners. He was hung on a Cross and shed his blood for the remission of Sins that he never committed; the Just dying for the Unjust. He arose from the grave and became the Author of Life for everyone who would dare to believe. We’re Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, apart from Works; that’s the only way it could be true that it’s not of ourselves. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as Lord and start reading your Bible. ~ Unconditional Election doesn’t mean you can’t be Saved but teaches that God chooses us first, then we choose him. Since God is allowed to choose his people like we are allowed to choose our own spouse, God can choose you even if you think you’re unlovable. God’s Love is special…

John 15:19 KJV; If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

It seems you are talking about proof that one is elected, rather than about the fact that God elects.

I am saying that exactly in that quote, and there are many more that lead to the same conclusion. Jesus came into the world to save sinners and to make them saints. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Clare73]

I believe when a person becomes aware they are breaking God's law and hears the good news about Jesus and reject's Him, they become lost if they continue in unbelief until death.

But the NT revels they were lost from birth (Romans 5:18), by nature objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).
If they reject Jesus, they just remain lost and objects of wrath.

Some of the folks in Rom. 1 & 2 (you can look them up if you are interested) never heard of God or Christ so I believe creation, conscience and their reaction to these became their gospel. Like the Indians before they heard the gospel we know. God does say in these same scriptures "He is no respecter of persons", go figure.

Those in hell are there because they are born condemned by the guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18).
Those not in hell are not there because they believed in Jesus' sacrifice to pay their penalty for sin which puts one in hell.

If God predestined Judas for the purpose he served, it had nothing to do with his salvation, just like Pharoah. It was just a curiosity question, no extra charge : )

Doesn't Jesus disagree with that assessment in John 17:12, calling him a "son of perdition," and in Matthew 26:24, that "it were better for him had he not been born"?
And if Pharaoh died with that hardened heart, he received the same fate as all those born of Adam who are not saved.

PS: I don't think you are into Calvinism.

That makes two votes for no, and one vote for yes.

 

[RickReads]

Unmerited Election ~ by ReverendRV

Ephesians 2:8 KJV; For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Compared to many Christians I know, I consider myself a ‘mini-Theologian’; an ABC, 123 kind of guy. In a way, this can be advantageous; I can say something which is as true as a deep Theologian but say it in a way that’s easier to understand. There’s a Doctrine called Unconditional Election, one of the 5-Points of Calvinism; it means that God chooses you to be Saved before you choose him as your God. I said to a friend that every Evangelical believes in Unconditional Election and I could prove it. Our verse says we are Saved by Grace, which means ‘Unmerited Favor’; there is no condition we can ever meet to earn the Favor of God. God chooses people before they’ve done anything Good to deserve it or before they have done anything bad not to deserve it, that his purpose in Election will stand. I suggested to my friend that we change the name of Unconditional Election to Unmerited Election, and he said this would mean we are Saved by Grace. I said, “Now you’re getting it!” How can we be Saved any other way but by Grace?

Let me explain the problem. ~ Have you ever used the name of God as a cuss word? We take his Name in Vain and this is Blasphemy; what if someone went around running your name through the mud? Have you kept the Sabbath Day Holy? What if you invited someone to your Wedding but they decided to work in the yard instead; how would you feel? What if the person decided to choose your Fiancee for you before they would come? Shouldn’t YOUR purpose in your Engagement stand? These are just three of the Ten Commandments, not even counting Lying and Stealing; if God judged you by his standard would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Shouldn’t he choose anyone else but you to live happily ever after with him? Does this bother you? Then you should check to see if you’ve been invited…

This is what God’s invitation looks like. ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ is the Son of God and he was the Sinless sacrifice which appeases the Wrath of God against Sinners. He was hung on a Cross and shed his blood for the remission of Sins that he never committed; the Just dying for the Unjust. He arose from the grave and became the Author of Life for everyone who would dare to believe. We’re Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, apart from Works; that’s the only way it could be true that it’s not of ourselves. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as Lord and start reading your Bible. ~ Unconditional Election doesn’t mean you can’t be Saved but teaches that God chooses us first, then we choose him. Since God is allowed to choose his people like we are allowed to choose our own spouse, God can choose you even if you think you’re unlovable. God’s Love is special…

John 15:19 KJV; If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Tell me about the unchosen. That is the issue that turns people against Calvinism.

 

[ReverendRV]

Tell me about the unchosen. That is the issue that turns people against Calvinism.

Okay...

I would start by saying the Unchosen are made from the same Fallen Lump of Clay that you are made from. They are as equally Fallen as I was. Clare deserves the same Fate that they deserve. I would say there is nothing remarkable about the Clay at all; Chosen or Unchosen...

You will find that I will most likely never say something you will disagree with. What do you think about the Unchosen?

 

[Clare73]

Okay...

I would start by saying the Unchosen are made from the same Fallen Lump of Clay that you are made from. They are as equally Fallen as I was. Clare deserves the same Fate that they deserve. I would say there is nothing remarkable about the Clay at all; Chosen or Unchosen...

You will find that I will most likely never say something you will disagree with. What do you think about the Unchosen?

Always glad to help!

You're doing a good job. . .keep going.