What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

Some more thoughts on our discussion as I was thinking more about the link. I never try and assure another person they are saved. There are to many warning passages in Scripture. There are things like strive to enter in the narrow gate, many who call Me Lord Lord shall not enter the kingdom, examine yourselves to see whether or not you are in the faith, its those who finish the race, those who endure until the end, those in the parables who remain faithful, finish what they started to build, have their lamps full, are ready in the middle of the night prepared for His coming at a time you do not know etc.......

So I just try and make my calling sure and remain faithful. I would never want to give another person a false security. They must believe the promises of God with their entire being. Assurance only comes by trusting and walking in Him and by knowing and experiencing God is faithful, Gods promises are rock solid and hungering and thirsting after Him. its a lifelong pursuit of a relationship just as it is with our spouse. That trust and love grows over the years to where it becomes that oneness described in Scripture. We can become one with Him just like we can with our spouse. There is a one to one correlation between the quality time we spend with our spouse and with Christ. That is how love grows and assurance too.

Sorry for the long post but I was just writing things down as I was thinking just now.

hope this helps !!!

good thoughts. Thanks.

 

[RickReads]

Rediculous response. The second link is actually a well-done Southern Baptist effort to slip Calvinism through the eye of the needle.

V
Joh 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Jesus seems to indicate we do not know how it happens but it does happen. Only the foolish try to explain it.[/QUOTE]

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof.—Better (see Note below), the Spirit breatheth where He willeth, and thou hearest His voice. These words are an explanation of the spiritual birth, the necessity of which has been asserted in the previous verses. They must have come to Nicodemus, bringing in their sound echoes of the old familiar words, “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7). These words would bring to the mind thoughts of the human body, cold, lifeless, corpse-like; of the breath of life passing into it; of the beating pulse, the opening eye, the action of nerve, muscle, and limb, as, in obedience to God’s will, matter became the framework of spirit, and man became a living soul. There are parallel thoughts of the spirit existing in capacity for life and union with God, but crushed beneath the physical life with its imperative demands for support, and the sensible life with its engrossing pleasures and pains, and sorrows and joys; of the Spirit of God breathing upon it; and of the dormant power awakening into a new life of noblest thoughts and hopes and energies, when man is born of the Spirit.
And yet the new spiritual birth, like the physical, cannot be explained. We can observe the phenomena, we cannot trace the principle of life. He breatheth where He willeth, in the wide world of man, free as the wind of heaven, bound by no limits of country or of race. The voice is heard speaking to the man himself, and through him to others; there is the evidence of the new birth in the new life. We know not whence He comes, or whither He goes. We cannot fix the day or hour of the new birth with certainty. We know not what its final issues will be. It is the beginning of a life which is a constant growth, and the highest development here is but the germ of that which shall be hereafter (1John 3:2).

So is every one that is born of the Spirit.—The sense is, In this manner is every one (born) who is born of the Spirit. The universality is again emphatically asserted. Individual spiritual life depends upon individual spiritual birth. The baptism of the Spirit is needed for all. Now, indeed, coming as a fire burning in men’s hearts, consuming the chaff of sin, while He purifies and stores up all that is true and good; now coming as in a moment, and arresting a man in a course of evil, revealing the iniquity of sin, and giving the power to reform; now coming as the gradual dawning of day upon the youthful soul who has never been wholly without it; here in a sermon or a prayer, there in the lessons of childhood; now by the example of a noble life or the lessons of history; again in the study of Scripture or the truths written on the page of nature—the Spirit breatheth where it willeth. We may not limit His action, but by His action must every one be born again. Comp. the instances of what men call gradual conversion and sudden conversion, placed side by side in the same chapter, in Acts 16:14; Acts 16:29 et seq.

 

[RickReads]

I'm referring to your lack of personal response to my:

What part of John 3:3-8, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14 do you not understand?

I don't usually answer ad hominem-style questions.

 

[Fervent]

Jesus also does a pretty good job of describing his mission when he states that
"the Son of Man . .came to give his life as a ransom for many,"
which tells me that "all" in 2 Peter 2:1 is to be understood as "all without distinction," rather than
"all without exception.".

This is a great example of the abuses Calvinists subject the Bible to. Matthew's gospel has no bearing on how to interpret Peter's words, especially based upon a doctrine built on an out of context citation. What Peter means by "all" must be understood based on what Peter is writing about, and the context there 'all without distinction" doesn't really make sense since there is no contrast of groups or other distinctions. But to the calvinist, the doctrine comes first and anything that contradicts it must be massaged by whatever means necessary to preserve it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't get how you are injecting all that into my words but frankly, I don't like it and I will not be responding because, in my opinion, you are debating very dishonestly here.

You are tap-dancing around the fact that your idea of regeneration is salvation without the need to practice Christianity.

If it is possible to pass from death to life without even hearing the gospel then I don't need to do anything of a religious nature. That`s your doctrine, your belief, not mine so don't turn yourself into a liar by trying to dump it on me.

Then maybe you'll respond to me. Calvinism, Reformed Theology, @Clare73 , nor I, nor any Calvinist of my acquaintance, believes that regeneration implies no need to practice Christianity. Regeneration IS, however, accomplished of God alone, and affects the whole person, necessarily resulting in works, and is not itself the result of works. Where you get, from anything Clare said, anything to the contrary, is beyond me.

You say, "If it is possible to pass from death to life without even hearing the gospel then I don't need to do anything of a religious nature." Maybe I missed it, but where did Clare say it is possible to pass from death to life without even hearing the gospel? Nevertheless, the notion, that it is possible to be regenerated as a result of a comprehensive understanding of the Gospel, is absurd. There is no human capable of such an understanding, during this life. In fact, I'd hazard to guess, we will spend all eternity studying and being amazed by what we learn about the Gospel. It is not by OUR understanding the gospel and responding to it, that we are regenerated, but the other way around. Our understanding and our response are of themselves unable to effect anything spiritual.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't usually answer ad hominem-style questions.

What question did @Clare73 ask that was ad hominem-style?

Maybe you need a different mop. You seem to have a problem wiping the floor, and not just with me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Indeed it is very strange, I learned it from you Calvins. If im regenerated I have everything I need.

Frankly, it sounds like a characterization at best, and almost a caricature. Calvinism teaches that God does give us all we need for life and godliness, but that implies nothing automatic. We must, and we will, work, if we belong to Christ. @Clare73 does not claim otherwise, and I think you know that.

 

[John Mullally]

Jesus also does a pretty good job of describing his mission when he states that
"the Son of Man . .came to give his life as a ransom for many,"
which tells me that "all" in 2 Peter 2:1 is to be understood as "all without distinction," rather than
"all without exception."

Actually Peter did not say "all" - but Paul did. And we already gone over that.

1 Timothy 2:1Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
​

Christ's ransom is not effective for all to whom it was made. As the ransom was paid for the false prophets of 2 Peter 2:1, but they are still on their way to destruction. So much for the L in TULIP - "Limited Atonement". The problem is not on God's end, as receiving requires faith.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.​

In the context of vv. 20-23, they had at least professed knowing the Lord, and which Peter's comment reflects.

I agree that 2 Peter 2:20-22 is referring to the false prophets in 2 Peter 2:1. They actually knew Christ (not just professed) and were also redeemed for a period of time. Unbelievers do not escape the pollutions of the world.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.​

 

[RickReads]

Do you intentionally misrepresent what others state, or is it failure to understand plain language?

Go back and review my example in post #1592, and let me know if yours above is an accurate representation of what I presented.

This may sting a bit, I quote you from 1643,

'Contraire. . .

But "let the dead bury their own dead" (Matthew 8:22) is. . .where, in the context of the whole NT, the first dead is spiritual and the second dead is physical.
Likewise, in the context of the whole NT, spiritual rebirth--born again, is not born again from spiritual life, but from spiritual death (Colossians 2:13), complete spiritual disability (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
That's what regeneration (re-birth) means (John 3:3-8), from spiritual death and blindness to spiritual life and sight.'

If you are spiritually alive then you are saved, whether you intended or not you called regeneration the salvation.

 

[RickReads]

Maybe you need a different mop. You seem to have a problem wiping the floor, and not just with me.

You seem to think this is some kind of game. I don't look at it that way nor do I find your Calvinism a challenge to refute.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If Christ paid for people introducing heresies, its safe to say he paid for your neighbor.

How in the world does this logically follow?? You would have Christ die for people in consideration of their merit???

That's bad enough, but your whole statement ignores the fact that God chose to whom to show mercy, based on God's purposes, and not on our judgements.

 

[Clare73]

Rediculous response. The second link is actually a well-done Southern Baptist effort to slip Calvinism through the eye of the needle.
V
Joh 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Jesus seems to indicate we do not know how it happens but it does happen. Only the foolish try to explain it.

Non-responsive to text requested. . .John 3:3-8.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Obviously, God's help is necessary but that isn't regeneration as it is presented in the gospel. If we are regenerated before being seeded with the gospel then we do not need to know about Jesus. No need for the gospel, no need for religion, no need to make the struggle, no need to refrain from sinning. Preservation of the saints will sustain me because I had the good fortune to be born a Puritan, albeit a Liberal Hedonistic one.

Who said we were regenerated before being 'seeded with the Gospel'? His word does not return to him void. Nobody is saying the unregenerated do not have minds. Of course the Gospel has an effect, both positive and negative, in the mind of the the lost! As for your repeated ad nauseum "no need for..." narrative, that is your extrapolation from an attitude you think Calvinism suggests, and has nothing to actually do with Calvinism. You really ought to give it up. If I was to take what you say there and extrapolate it, I could make it say that you believe one can earn his way to Heaven! Really???

 

[Mark Quayle]

You seem determined to make me get mean. I may have to repent and apologize to Cormack
again. I`m a former Calvinist so as a Calvinist I ask you, You say I got regenerated via irresistible grace and this occurred before I heard about Jesus. I have passed from death into life. Even Clare says this is so.

What do I need to practice Christianity for? It`s of no more use to me than Buddha is. I got my fire insurance.

No, I did not say your regeneration occurred before you heard about Jesus. And I would appreciate if you could show me where @Clare73 said it, since you are wrong about me saying it. I also would appreciate if you would stop mischaracterizing Calvinism. You must have really been a poor representative example of Calvinism, to be talking in such a way.

 

[Clare73]

I don't usually answer ad hominem-style questions.

Good for you. . .

Relevance?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Explain.

The atmosphere of the churches makes the doctrine "eternal separation from God" seem plausible. Something about the doctrine creates an atmosphere that violates the concept of Romans 8:38-39.

It's rather unique, I must say.

 

[Clare73]

Actually Peter did not say "all" - but Paul did. And we already gone over that.
1 Timothy 2:1Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

To which I see Jesus' statement in Matthew 20:28 giving us to understand that "all" is
"all without distinction," rather than "all without exception."

Christ's ransom is not effective for all to whom it was made. As the ransom was paid for the false prophets of 2 Peter 2:1, but they are still on their way to destruction. So much for the L in TULIP - "Limited Atonement". The problem is not on God's end, as receiving requires faith.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.​

I agree that 2 Peter 2:20-22 is referring to the false prophets in 2 Peter 2:1. They actually knew Christ (not just professed) and were also redeemed for a period of time. Unbelievers do not escape the pollutions of the world.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.​

Yes, there are tares among the wheat who, although they look like wheat, and are thought by some to be wheat, their apostasy proves they are not, and never were, for wheat never becomes a sare, a sheep never becomes a goat, and a goat never becomes a sheep.

 

[Clare73]

This may sting a bit,

If it's the truth, let it sting.

I quote you from 1643,
Clare73 said:
"Contraire. . .
But "let the dead bury their own dead" (Matthew 8:22) is. . .where, in the context of the whole NT, the first dead is spiritual and the second dead is physical.
Likewise, in the context of the whole NT, spiritual rebirth--born again, is not born again from

spiritual life, but from spiritual death (Colossians 2:13), complete spiritual disability (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
That's what regeneration (re-birth) means (John 3:3-8), from spiritual death and blindness to spiritual life and sight." [End quote.]
If you are spiritually alive then you are saved, whether you intended or not you called regeneration the salvation.

Well, bless yer lil' ole' heart. . .no sting.

Regeneration --> faith --> remission of sin (salvation) --> justification (declared righteous) --> sonship

are in reality close to simultaneous, but for order of effect, they are stated as occurring above,
it all beginning where Jesus says it does in John 3:3-8, with the rebirth by the sovereign will of God the Holy Spirit before the unregenerate can even see anything spiritual (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14), much less receive and believe.

 

[Mark Quayle]

@RickReads quoted misput as saying:
"misput said: ↑
Rediculous response. The second link is actually a well-done Southern Baptist effort to slip Calvinism through the eye of the needle."

V
Joh 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Jesus seems to indicate we do not know how it happens but it does happen. Only the foolish try to explain it.

I'm sure it was a non-intended slip, to quote @misput as though he, and not you, had been the one who said "Rediculous response. The second link is actually a well-done Southern Baptist effort to slip Calvinism through the eye of the needle."

Was that you or someone you are quoting, who said, "Only the foolish try to explain it."? Is that your view on John 3, or what you think of those who try to understand anything about the Spirit, or just about where the Spirit goes and what it does, or what? I mean, after all, there is a reason Jesus said it to Nicodemus, and a reason it is in the context with John 3:16 et al, and a reason it is in the Bible. You can't just dismiss it with a careless flip of the wrist.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You seem to think this is some kind of game. I don't look at it that way nor do I find your Calvinism a challenge to refute.

You sounded quite a bit like it was a game, a while back, when you sounded like Yosemite Sam. I thought you were getting all ready to wipe the floor with me, when I wished you "luck" in your endeavors.

Yes, I can see you don't consider [my] Calvinism a challenge to refute, as your efforts have yet to succeed in proving anything against it, in your refutations.