What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Did you read both verses I posted? "Where there is no law there is no sin." Small children, infants, the mentally challenged, people who live in remote areas etc. don't have the law they are not charged with sin.
If I go to a remote village in rural India and hand them an English Bible they still to not have the law.

I wish you are right about that.

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

This covers small children, infants, the mentally challenged, those living in some far off remote jungle or desert, etc.

I think I fully misunderstood your intention with this post. I now understand it was of support to Misput. Sorry!

 

[Clare73]

Did you read both verses I posted? "Where there is no law there is no sin."

Is that in agreement with Romans 2:14-15, Romans 3:9-10, Romans 5:18?

Or is that (Romans 5:13) stated in the context of the time from Adam to Moses?

Small children, infants, the mentally challenged, people who live in remote areas etc. don't have the law they are not charged with sin.
If I go to a remote village in rural India and hand them an English Bible they still to not have the law.

 

[zoidar]

Agreed. . .an unborn child is not charged with actual sin.
Rather, Adam's sin/guilt is imputed (vicariously ascribed) to him by God at birth (Romans 5:18).

Agreed. . .actual sin must be incurred by the individual.

Agreed, both are God's doing. . .and God imputes Adam's sin/guilt to all at birth (Romans 5:18).

Actually, likewise made guilty by imputation of Adam's sin/guilt to all mankind, not imputed just to the "accountable," but to all. (Romans 5:18)
And made righteous by the imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith (Romans 4:1-11).

Romans 5:18 doesn't mention guilt or imputation. Just saying.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I see! But you said that the one doesn't happen without the other. We sin because we have a sinful nature, that's true. But how is the other true, that we have a sinful nature because we sin?

Well, I didn't mean that we have a sinful nature as a result of sinning, though there is truth to the concept that sinning (what's the word?) begins or produces a habit of continued sinning. What I meant, and thought I was saying, is that the sin demonstrates the nature.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That sounds like a doctrince that brings a lot of insecurity. Losing salvation over one sin sounds crazy, unless it's a real terrible sin like murder. I know the case of David and Bathsheba. It's debatable, but I think he was on the brink of losing his salvation.

It's a good thing the "imputed sin" brings, that it is an argument against that we lose salvation each time we sin. True that! But there are other arguments against that as well, even if we don't believe in the imputed sin.

Would you agree that all those that God has decided to save will indeed be saved?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Romans 5:18 doesn't mention guilt or imputation. Just saying.

Are you referring to felt guilt or real guilt? We are accounted guilty, real guilt. Thus, in Romans 5:18, "condemnation."

 

[Clare73]

Romans 5:18 doesn't mention guilt or imputation. Just saying.

Does Romans 5:18 have a context? Is it seen in the context?
Where did you learn to ascribe meaning to verses outside their context?

This is where more reading of the NT is needed for the NT connection of guilt to condemnation.
You seem to approach statements in the NT without any connection/relationship whatsoever to the rest of the NT, with little grasp of the context of the NT.

It states "condemnation," which is always because of sin/guilt.

Imputation is the conclusion of Romans 5:12-18, including (sinful) Adam being the pattern for (righteous) Jesus Christ (Romans 5:14).

Pattern of what?

 

[Clare73]

Well, I didn't mean that we have a sinful nature as a result of sinning, though there is truth to the concept that sinning (what's the word?) begins or produces a habit of continued sinning. What I meant, and thought I was saying, is that the sin demonstrates the nature.

We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners (our nature).

 

[zoidar]

Are you referring to felt guilt or real guilt? We are accounted guilty, real guilt. Thus, in Romans 5:18, "condemnation."

Romans 5:18 just says that Adam's sin is to condemnation, and Christ's righteousness is to life. It doesn't say why and how.

To believe it's about imputed guilt of Adam, is something we can hold to be true, not what it literally says. There are other available interpretations. Like the one I give to Clare in the post below.

 

[zoidar]

It states "condemnation," which is always because of sin/guilt.

To believe it's about imputed guilt of Adam, is something we can hold to be true, not what it literally says. Of course I understand it is because of guilt (just pointed out it doesn't literally say it), but what guilt? You say of Adam's sin, I say of our own sin.

BSB Romans 5:18
So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men (from living in sin because of the inherited fallen nature), so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. (through living a new life because of Christ's righteousness received through the Holy Spirit)

BSB Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners (through their own sins because of the inherited fallen nature), so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.(through living a new life through Christ's righteousness)

I don't show you this to convince you I'm right. I don't care if you believe it or not. What I care about is that you see there are different available interpretations of the text, that fits just as good. But from our discussions so far, I don't see you very open to acknowledge this. And this is where I think you should reconsider.

 

[zoidar]

Would you agree that all those that God has decided to save will indeed be saved?

God has decided to save whoever believes and those who believe will indeed be saved (if they continue in faith). I don't believe God has decided before time who will be saved.

 

[Fervent]

But we don't have Romans 5:13 in there. How do I know which words fit ellogeó there? Do you mean lohgitzomai has the same meaning?

Sorry if I sound like a rookie, I'm just not that experienced with the use of lexicons.

They share a root. Here's what 2 other lexicons say about it(louw & Nida and Little Kittel TDNT, respectively):
33.45 ἐλλογέωa: to keep a record of something — ‘to record, to list.’ ἁμαρτία δὲ οὐκ ἐλλογεῖται μὴ ὄντος νόμου ‘but where there is no law, no account is kept of sins’ Ro 5:13. There may be difficulties involved in changing the passive expression ‘no account is kept of sins’ in Ro 5:13 to ‘God doesn’t keep an account of sins,’ for this might imply that God was unconcerned about sin. It is sometimes possible to avoid this difficulty by rendering ‘no account is kept of sins’ as ‘a sin is not listed as a sin.’

ἐλλογέω ellogéō [to charge to an account]

The term ellogéō has a commercial sense in Phlm. 18: Paul will meet any loss suffered through Onesimus. Its use is figurative in the only other NT instance in Rom. 5:13. The argument here is that all are sinners prior to the giving of the law, and death reigns as a destiny posited in Adam, but until God’s will is declared in the law sin is not transgression of the law and hence it is not counted or charged in the same way as it is after Moses. [H. PREISKER, II, 516–17]

 

[misput]

Doomed from the womb is sketchy theology and doomed before the womb is even sketchier but it really doesn't matter because God is not asking us to figure it out. He is asking us to trust He already has.

 

[John Mullally]

Well, no. Not quite the same.

Scripting is intelligent control or causation. That can occur by controlling circumstances per First Cause, as you put it. If every man’s action, good and bad, being as decreed by God, it is not a happy coincidence - man’s actions are being scripted by God.

 

[zoidar]

Imputation is the conclusion of Romans 5:12-18, including (sinful) Adam being the pattern for (righteous) Jesus Christ (Romans 5:14).

Pattern of what?

Adam is the pattern of Christ. Where Adam brought sinfulness into the world - to everyone - by his transgression, Christ brings righteousness into the world - to whoever receives him - through his righteous act (death and resurrection).

It's tempting to say what you say, but I won't go there.

 

[Clare73]

To believe it's about imputed guilt of Adam, is something we can hold to be true, not what it literally says. Of course I understand it is because of guilt (just pointed out it doesn't literally say it), but what guilt? You say of Adam's sin, I say of our own sin.

Then you don't understand Romans 5:18.
What sin did we incur at birth to cause our condemnation of Romans 5:18?

BSB Romans 5:18
So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men (from living in sin because of the inherited fallen nature), so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. (through living a new life because of Christ's righteousness received through the Holy Spirit)

Totally contrary to NT teaching regarding imputation to Abraham as presented in Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:2-3, and in the NT in Romans 4:1-11.

How many times must it be demonstrated to you that you cannot, as you seek to do, understand the NT apart from all the NT, and also the OT?
I'd rather sweep sand in a sand storm.

BSB Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners (through their own sins because of the inherited fallen nature), so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.(through living a new life through Christ's righteousness)

I don't show you this to convince you I'm right. I don't care if you believe it or not. What I care about is that you see there are different available interpretations of the text, that fits just as good. But from our discussions so far, I don't see you very open to acknowledge this. And this is where I think you should reconsider.

Until you deal with Romans 5:12-17 where it is presented, addressing in context all the issues involved there, your objection to imputation of Adam's sin/guilt to all men (Romans 5:18) is without merit.

 

[Clare73]

Doomed from the womb is sketchy theology and doomed before the womb is even sketchier but it really doesn't matter because God is not asking us to figure it out. He is asking us to trust He already has.

There is nothing sketchy about believing Romans 5:18, rather it is denying it that is sketchy.

 

[Clare73]

Adam is the pattern of Christ. Where Adam brought sinfulness into the world - to everyone - by his transgression, Christ brings righteousness into the world - to whoever receives him - through his righteous act (death and resurrection).

It's tempting to say what you say, but I won't go there.

Which glosses over the imputation of Christ's righteousness in justification (Romans 4:1-11), as by faith righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3), you failing to deal with what the Scriptures present.

We keep covering the same Biblical teaching over and over. . .none of which you Biblically demonstrate is incorrect.
The Biblical teaching is presented, you object and move on to something else, without ever dealing Biblically with that to which you object, as though your objection alone were sufficient to discredit it.
That's not how it works in honest understanding of Scripture.

I'd rather sweep sand in a sand storm.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Romans 5:18 just says that Adam's sin is to condemnation, and Christ's righteousness is to life. It doesn't say why and how.

To believe it's about imputed guilt of Adam, is something we can hold to be true, not what it literally says. There are other available interpretations. Like the one I give to Clare in the post below.

Imputed guilt is not a feeling. It's a judgement. Condemnation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God has decided to save whoever believes and those who believe will indeed be saved (if they continue in faith). I don't believe God has decided before time who will be saved.

Who is it talking about in Eph 1:4? "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." Is it not the elect? Where else does the Bible speak of the elect being anything but those to whom he gives special mercy, love and grace, and for the purpose of becoming his Dwelling Place, the Bride of Christ, to his own glory?