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What is the strong delusion God will send in the end time?

Jipsah

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Its accepted fact a brain not exercised atrophies.
Ah, but effective mockery (i.e., the sort that inspires irrational responses from those whose ideas are being mocked) requires at least a modicum of intellectual effort. (Which is more than can always be said for the ideas being mocked.)

Scripture does say this about fools:

4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
(Pro 26:4-5 KJV)
As I'm sure you have observed, I prefer to go with verse 4.

Knee-jerk mocking, before one even knows the proofs supporting what is being mocked, or why they might be unsound---is called folly and shame....
And stating as fact things that are simply untrue and without any proofs worthy of the name is, if not folly, then at least ample reason for those imagined "facts" to be mocked. To ask someone to take ridiculous assertions on faith places one in a position where being mocked is inevitable.

And in fact, that's a good thing. For a person of wisdom, having one's beliefs mocked should inspire them to examine the ideas that are exposing them to ridicule and see if they're really well founded. For instance, if one were to believe in, let us say, Flying Saucers, for the existence of which there is not a shred of credible evidence, and not only believe in them, but want to incorporate that belief into a part of the Christian Faith, then having that notion mocked might conceivably jar that person into seeing what an asinine position they'd taken. The mockery, then, would have had a purely salutary effect.

Can we consider it Foolish, also?
I'm of the opinion that the willing embrace of an egregious falsehood is surpassingly foolish.

How could the Devil know what a person is thinking, if telepathy isn't being used?
By watching their actions and hearing their words. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." There's no evidence that telepathy exists, and nothing in Scripture that indicates that Satan can read minds, although the superstitious surely believe that he can.

Would it be foolish to mock Jesus Christ's teaching the Devil knows what people are thinking?
No more foolish that to put words into our Lord's mouth and to represent Him as saying something that He in fact did not. I can't imagine a more pernicious lie.

Might such knee-jerk mocking indicate an atrophied brain is in play?
Just so, but we disagree on which party is suffering from atrophy in this case. ;)

A brain that does not consider the reasons why a statement might be sound?
Or a brain that considers a proposition sound on no basis at all except for an overactive imagination and a superstitious turn of mind. :cool:
 
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Jipsah

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The people on the other continents got there because God confused the language at the tower of Babel, and they spread out to the rest of the world.
How they got there is irrelevant, they were still there. Did God put ;em there? Of course! How else did anyone get anywhere at all?

They are all humans.
Not devils transmarine?

There are no extra-terrestrial aliens other than Satan's angels. In Revelation 6, the second heaven, that of the cosmos will be shaken and parted - which before that happens is the principality of Satan and his angels.
So we're replacing "devils transmarine" with "devils interstellar". What's the difference? The whole "the principality of Satan" thing is your interpretation, and one which I obviousky reject. As for actual Scriptural support for such a notion there is none.

So there are no alien civilizations somewhere out there in the Star-trek universe.
I expect that's probably true, for reasons I've previously stated. But the Bible is silent on the matter, and to try and force it to support our conclusions after the fact is supremely silly.
 
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Alfred Persson

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An example, Jesus says:

12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luk 8:12 NKJ)


How could the Devil know what a person is thinking, if telepathy isn't being used?


By watching their actions and hearing their words. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." There's no evidence that telepathy exists, and nothing in Scripture that indicates that Satan can read minds, although the superstitious surely believe that he can.-Jipsah

You made that up misdirecting attention away from the teaching of Christ.

NOTHING in the text suggests the Devil was watching their actions and physically hearing their words, making guesses about what they were thinking.

Christ is explaining this "wayside" portion of the sower parable:


5 "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. (Luk 8:5 NKJ)

The birds aren't watching their actions and hearing their words, the truth is being trampled upon, and stolen from them. Christ explains the Devil is taking the word of the gospel FROM THEIR HEARTS---lest they should believe and be saved.

Clearly Christ is saying the Devil is trampling upon and removing from the THOUGHT, the truth of the gospel.

That requires two-way communication.

As the Devil and this person on the wayside are NOT having a debate, he is deceiving them subtly without the person's knowledge.

They believe they are considering the gospel and any contrary arguments are arising from their own hearts. They don't know its the Devil trampling upon God's words, and contradicting the truth in them.


This is not an isolated text in Christ's teaching, the other gospels repeat this because of its importance:


4 "And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them...
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. (Mat 13:4, 19 NKJ)

4 "And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it...
15 "And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. (Mar 4:4, 15 NKJ)


If "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist" (Charles Baudelaire), the second greatest was concealing his telepathic "mystery of lawlessness" that incites evil desires in man, and can blind him to the truth of the gospel.

Its clear from Christ parable the Devil can "hear" verbalized thought and by imitating one's own "inner voice," argue against believing the truth of the gospel and so blinding minds lest they repent, and be saved:


Christ wanted everyone to know the Devil can do that:

11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2Co 2:11 NKJ)


If you wanted extra-biblical examples of the Devil communicating telepathically with people, go no further than those who believe his "voice thought impressions" are God's voice. We can objectively know by their false prophecy Christ never knew them:

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1Jo 4:1 NKJ)

Its inexcusable a Christian wield the rationalistic wrecking ball to suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness---the Devil clearly has powerful "TELEPATHIC TOOLS TO DECEIVE" at his disposal:

The whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. (1Jo 5:19 NKJ)

Telepathically spirits seduce and teach their doctrines:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, (1Ti 4:1 NKJ)

That is the essence of the "secret power of lawlessness", its telepathic incitement of lawlessness, a secret ability the Devil strives to keep secret, and which Christ clearly wanted to expose.

A good example of Satanic telepathic seduction was evangelist Jimmy Swaggart's belief God tempted him with pornography. He's not the first charismaniac who mistook the telepathic seduction of the Devil for the "voice of God":


13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (Jam 1:13-15 NKJ)

That is how the devil does it. His verbal or non verbal telepathic suggestion can even be streamed as vivid dream or vision or even an "abduction experience". Evidently the devil can manipulate the electro-magnetic field surrounding the human brain and make it feel like there is a "presence," even joy and irrational fear much as humans can now do technologically; or project a "feeling they are holy" and therefore "testing them" as God commands we do (1 John 4:1ff; 1 Cor 12:2f) would be "blasphemous" ----

These "energies" (Eph 2:2 ἐνεργοῦντος 1754) work in the human body causing production of the hormones and chemicals that incite physical lusts and other evil desires; then when the person is overcome by them and take pleasure in unrighteousness---they are guilty of sin.

THAT is the Devil's secret power (mystery) of lawlessness that results in taking pleasure in unrighteousness


7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work (2 Th 2:7 NIV)


Satanic telepathic suggestion is so powerful and deceptive he can disguise himself as "another Jesus" and even have people "commune" with him thinking they are communing with Christ:

4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it! (2Co 11:4 NKJ)

21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)


Satan disguises himself so well, he appears as an angel of light in telepathic deception, in verbal and non verbal suggestion, also in dreams and visions:

For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. (2Co 11:14 NKJ)


It is very important every believer know this, and guard against becoming one of the many false prophets following Satan's voice.

God does not speak to us verbally, He speaks through the Word the Bible. As we diligently study it, God washes us with the Word and it becomes a lamp that lights our path and shows us the way of righteousness:


Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. (Psa 119:105 NKJ)

Hence it can be said without fear of contradiction:


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)



The man of God doesn't need voice thought impressions, dreams or visions, God inspired the Bible to make us complete, and thoroughly equipped for every good work.

No question I ever had about the faith, remained unanswered whenever I diligently sought out the answer in God's Holy Word, with prayer.

The Word of God, washing us clean of all unrighteousness, is how the church is led by the Spirit of God:



26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. (Eph 5:26-28 NKJ)


17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. (Joh 17:17 NKJ)


It is pathetically easy for Satan to telepathically deceive all unaware of his ability to do so. Many have been deceived by spirits into becoming false prophets.

They will heed the satanic voice and enter a troubled existence, wandering in darkness and error. They will be afflicted with poverty, and trouble on every side.

Then they will become enraged at their government, and even God whom they think is tempting them with evil...

Its when they curse God that they truly look upward for the first time.


Therefore God grants them their first vision from Him---beneath their feet they see their future, tribulation and anguish upon every soul what worketh evil, darkness and thick gloom and anguish, the very sorrows of Hell revealed just under their feet: THEN God drives them down into it:


20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

21 They will pass through it hard pressed and hungry; and it shall happen, when they are hungry, that they will be enraged and curse their king and their God, and look upward.
22 Then they will look to the earth, and see trouble and darkness, gloom of anguish; and they will be driven into darkness.
(Isa 8:20-22 NKJ)

Its pathetic hearing these complain, "Oh God, WHY did you send me here!"

He didn't, there is no light in you.

Some imagine Satan himself could ask God for bread, and not get a stone, or a demon a fish, and not get a serpent.

But the text specifies only the son will get the bread, or the fish.

It may be a hard teaching, but its Christ's teaching:


9 "Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10 "Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! (Mat 7:9-11 NKJ)
 
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AJCServant

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 29:13-14 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]but have removed their [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]heart [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]far from me[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], and their fear toward me is taught by the (demonic) [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]doctrines-of-men[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.


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shturt678s

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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 29:13-14 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]but have removed their [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]heart [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]far from me[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], and their fear toward me is taught by the (demonic) [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]doctrines-of-men[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.


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I think a shift in gears to IIThess.2:10b is the reason and purpose for the "strong delusion". :idea:

Old Jack

btw IIThess.2:11, 12 is expounded upon in detail in Rev.8:7-9:21 with a valid unveiling ;)
 
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Alfred Persson

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while I agree with your theory that satan/and or demons can speak in the same voice as our inner man, even to the point of being able to hear our thoughts I wouldn't go as far as to lump all signs and wonders done, is the work of satan, or another Jesus


as we see in Mark 16:17 signs and wonders and power would follow those who believe..........discernment is the key
According to context, those signs confirmed the disciples eventually believed and that their word was "of God":

13 And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mar 16:13-1 NKJ)

Compare:

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders,
with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
(Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


So its a matter of perspective. Mark 16:13-20 was written years after the events, to THOSE who heard these disciples preach.

The signs of their belief is NOT FOR THEM----its for those who heard them. THEY were confirmed by God via the signs, to be truth talkers, real disciples SENT BY God the Eternal Son.

The signs are so WE WOULD KNOW WHO THEY WERE, who truly believes, not them.

Hence the text is not about OUR belief, its about the disciples being true believers having divine authority to preach belief.

Therefore verse 20 reads like the conclusion, once their belief was proved by the signs, its done. Its not about future believers and what would prove their belief at all.


But I can't say "all signs and wonders" today are done by the Devil, like the NT I leave open the possibility God will act in our time:

3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
(Rev 11:3-13 NKJ)

I can say, from all the false prophesy and lawlessness evident in Pentecostalism (1 John 4:1ff; Matt 7:20ff), their signs and wonders are not from God. Jesus never knew them.

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
(Mat 7:15-23 NKJ)

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
(Jud 1:8-13 NKJ)
 
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Alfred Persson

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well if that's the way you see it then what can I say, but being filled with the Holy Spirit and experiencing the power of God in a real and tangible way, witnessing the power of God Heal people and transform their lives into born again men and women of God is a remarkable, I'm not sure why you would make an assumption that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped when the evidence and good fruit is apparent...

I don't see the good fruit, the lawlessness aka "rebellion against the plain teaching of the apostles" in the NT, is everywhere and increasing.

False prophecy vis a vis healing and prosperity abounds, and railing against demonic forces as though we are instrumental in their defeat, a hubris even Michael the archangel didn't manifest Jude 1:8f), and the fall into all sorts of sexual perversity and sin...

Don't see the good fruit you mention.

Who do you say evidences it, while proposing their much inferior "gifts" are like those manifest in the pages of the NT?

State their names so I can check them out.


I do not question many genuine believers, who don't manifest the charismania now evident, fool themselves supposing incoherent babble is the same the New Testament tongues which were actual languages.

I once was one of them, albeit never spoke in tongues or anything of that nature. But still I recall saying "we can't throw the baby out with the bath water."

There is no baby in the bathwater, its all sewage, and its time for the people of God to come out of Babylon, who is falling prostrate before every demon and unclean spirit in Satan's kingdom.


The great falling away is well in progress, now some even imagine they are equal to the apostles and soon will record their own pontifications like its equal to scripture:


2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!(Rev 18:2 NKJ)

I don't confuse the miracle of conversion, the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, the perception into the Word of God He grants me, with tongues, prophecy and knowledge. Its clear from 1 Cor 13:8ff, these are not to be confused with the universal born again experience all believers experience, when they believed and publicly confessed faith in the name of the Eternal Son of God, who became flesh and dwelt among us---the impeccably righteous One, our great God and Savior the LORD Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

These supernatural gifts are very much in evidence today.

The error is in confusing what all Christians in every age are given that will NEVER cease, with the temporary prophecy tongues and knowledge Paul distinguished as separate from it 1 Cor 13:8ff that will definitely cease:


8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. (1Co 13:8 NKJ)


Not that it means anything, its experiential, not objective infallible scripture:

BUT when I was Foursquare, trying to "prompt tongues," as they taught I should do.

I recall God opening my eyes, to see Satan encircling me like a roaring lion, a vortex of off white energy with streaks of swirling darkness, somewhat cylindrical in shape, the bottom of which folded in on itself as he moved as though it were his feet----pressing in on me as hard as he could, against the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, who kept him away at a safe distance so Satan couldn't touch me.

I immediately stopped prompting:


18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. (1Jo 5:18 NKJ)


Prompting for tongues is equivalent to a Ouija board, its trying to manipulate the "higher power" just like magic to get what wasn't freely given.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry (1Sa 15:23 NKJ)

It was opening the door into the spirit world, for another Jesus to come in, a different spirit other than whom Paul preached. So there is "another Jesus, a different spirit", who disguises himself as Jesus, taking His place:

4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it! (2Co 11:4 NKJ)

20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Mat 7:20-23 NKJ)
 
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Alfred Persson

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what does the bible actually teach about the gifts, seems to me Paul is quite confident that the gifts are under the authority of those who possess them (see 1 Corinthians 14:32)...

We partially agree, but lets look at that "spirits of the prophets" again, its not "spirits of prophecy" as though the Corinthians were spiritists, heeding spirits.

The genitive "of the prophets" requires Paul is referring to the human spirits of those prophesying, they have control over their own spirits and aren't in a uncontrollable state or ecstasy.

The Holy Spirit doesn't overrule free will, His guidance is gentle and in love. To do otherwise would be against the whole idea of divine creation in love for fellowship.

This "prophesying" is like that seen in modern non charismatic churches during small Bible study:

26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. (1Co 14:26 NKJ)

Believers read scripture that "spoke to them" in a special way. One must recall the context, this was before the Bible was completed, they were comparatively speaking, at a disadvantage. They had to go on memory of what was taught, people often do get things wrong.

That it isn't equivalent to scripture prophecy, is expressly stated by Paul:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

Paul (and the other apostles) prophesied the very word of God (1 Thess 2:13), to the Corinthians, the Word of God reached them, it didn't spring from them during their meetings. Hence two or three mature believers were to judge what was being "prophesied" to ensure consistency with the apostolic faith.


In other words, they could be wrong and not labeled "false prophets" (as would be required if a spirit were speaking through them and they prophesied falsely). Their own human spirit might have misunderstood what was revealed to them, and the mature believers (prophets) could assist correcting the mistake.

That the tongues spoken at this time---by the minority (for only a majority could forbid a practice 1 Cor 14:49), were translatable language even if the tongues speaker didn't understand it, is clear from Paul's insistence it could be interpreted. Interpretation requires syntax, which modern tongues notably lack.

God spoke to the Jews by these tongues, which is impossible if it weren't a language. If no interpreter, then it was not profitable for the church to speak tongues, then prophecy (expository preaching of apostolic teaching) was clearly the better choice:

20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. (1Co 14:20-24 NKJ)

I believe 1 Corinthians was written around 50 AD, by 66 AD, just before the destruction of the Temple, signs confirming the Word was "of God" are spoken of as having accomplished their purpose, and now are referred to in the past tense, "was confirmed":

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
(Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)

The destruction of the Temple was the final sign to the Jews Judaism, the old covenant, was over. Tongues were then redundant and clearly phased out, never again are they spoken of.

The clear testimony of scripture is the apostolic faith was "once for all delivered to the saints," resulting in a completed Bible "17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2Ti 3:17 NKJ) rendering tongues, prophecy and supernatural knowledge unnecessary.

But charismaniacs rose up, ungodly men who turned the grace of God into space for sin. Eyes full of idolatry, they feast on the wealth of their followers, promising freedom while they themselves are slaves to every sort of perversion and sin.

These waterless clouds say "I have a dream," and follow their experiences rather than loving the truth, they take pleasure in unrighteousness.

Publicly railing against glorious ones whose power and strength they cannot fathom, they learned nothing from the Archangel Michael's caution.

These wandering stars imagine they can control demons via magic incantations misusing the name of Christ. They learned nothing from the seven sons of Sceva (Acts 19:14ff), till suddenly they will.


3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
15 "to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.
(Jud 1:3-16 NKJ)

25 "I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying,`I have dreamed, I have dreamed!'
26 "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart,
27 "who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal.
28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
29 "Is not My word like a fire?" says the LORD, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
30 "Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," says the LORD, "who steal My words every one from his neighbor.
31 "Behold, I am against the prophets," says the LORD, "who use their tongues and say,`He says.'
32 "Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," says the LORD, "and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all," says the LORD.
33 "So when these people or the prophet or the priest ask you, saying,`What is the oracle of the LORD?' you shall then say to them,`What oracle?' I will even forsake you," says the LORD.
34 "And as for the prophet and the priest and the people who say,`The oracle of the LORD!' I will even punish that man and his house.
(Jer 23:25-34 NKJ)
 
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Alfred Persson said in post 126:

The signs are so WE WOULD KNOW WHO THEY WERE, who truly believes, not them.

Hence the text is not about OUR belief, its about the disciples being true believers having divine authority to preach belief.

To authenticate God's messengers and their message isn't the only purpose for Spiritual gifts. Another purpose is to edify those who are already believers (1 Corinthians 14:4,5,12,13,26-31).

*******

Alfred Persson said in post 127:

Prompting for tongues is equivalent to a Ouija board, its trying to manipulate the "higher power" just like magic to get what wasn't freely given.

Not sure what you mean by prompting. But speaking or singing in tongues does take some effort, because when the Holy Spirit gives people the gift of tongues he doesn't turn them into sock puppets. They still have to open their own mouths and make the effort to speak or sing something forth. Tongues aren't spoken or sung out of some sort of Spiritual or emotional euphoria, but can be spoken or sung in no less a sober manner than praying or singing in one's natural language. So long as believers aren't purposely trying to mentally control, alter, or add to what they are saying or singing in tongues, but are simply letting their spirit pray or sing in tongues with no mental input on their part (1 Corinthians 14:14-15), they should simply accept by faith that they have truly received the gift of tongues.

Another misconception regarding tongues is that they can't ever be just a simple phrase, but must always be some long and elaborate discourse. But why should it be surprising that when our spirit is first given the ability to speak (1 Corinthians 14:14), it can use only simple phrases, just as when we were toddlers and our mind first learned to speak, it started out with only simple phrases?

Believers can think that they are being objective in denying the validity of tongues, when in fact they aren't, just as atheists who used to be Christians can think that they are being objective in denying the validity of Christian faith, when in fact they aren't. Does every instance of someone without Spiritual gifts witnessing their use throughout the world today have to objectively be like the fable of the child seeing the emperor with no clothes, instead of like the fable of the fox with no grapes?

*******

Alfred Persson said in post 128:

If no interpreter, then it was not profitable for the church to speak tongues, then prophecy (expository preaching of apostolic teaching) was clearly the better choice:

20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. (1Co 14:20-24 NKJ)

Uninterpreted tongues can serve as a sign to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22-23) of their inability to understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14), just as Jesus' uninterpreted parables spoken to those who weren't his disciples served the same purpose (Matthew 13:13-15). But this isn't the only purpose for uninterpreted tongues, for they also serve to edify the spirits of the believers who speak them privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2,4,14), just as interpreted tongues serve to edify a whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5,12,13,26).

Both unbelievers and Spiritually-"unlearned" believers see uninterpreted tongues as "mad" (1 Corinthians 14:23), while not seeing prophesying as mad (1 Corinthians 14:24). For they can't understand uninterpreted tongues (1 Corinthians 14:2), but they can understand prophesying (1 Corinthians 14:25).

Believers who have been given the Spiritual gift of prophecy (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) are the prophets of the church (1 Corinthians 14:29-33; 1 Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11). When they prophesy, they speak words directly from God, just as when the true prophets of Old Testament Israel prophesied, they spoke words directly from God (e.g. Jeremiah 26:12-13).

Alfred Persson said in post 128:

The clear testimony of scripture is the apostolic faith was "once for all delivered to the saints," resulting in a completed Bible "17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2Ti 3:17 NKJ) rendering tongues, prophecy and supernatural knowledge unnecessary.

Are you thinking of 1 Corinthians 13:10? If so, it isn't referring to the perfect Bible (2 Timothy 3:16), but to the perfect man (2 Timothy 3:17) which the whole obedient church will become in our future (Ephesians 4:13) when it sees Jesus face to face at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 13:12; 1 John 3:2). All obedient Christians will be resurrected or changed into immortal, sinless bodies, like Jesus' resurrection body, at his 2nd coming (Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

When Paul speaks of perfect maturity having come in 1 Corinthians 13:10-11, he has Christians as the context. For the context is the "we" who currently know and prophesy only in part (1 Corinthians 13:9), and who currently see Jesus only as in a darkened mirror (1 Corinthians 13:12; 2 Corinthians 3:18), but who will see Jesus face to face (1 Corinthians 13:12) at his 2nd coming (1 John 3:2).
 
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toLiJC

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What is the strong delusion God will send in the end time?

the spiritual iniquity in the form of yoga, hinduism, and the rest of the unrighteous creeds, but yoga is the greatest creed of the "darkness"

Genesis 3:1-7 "Now the serpent(i.e. and lo, the devil came from the "darkness", and it) was more subtil than any beast(i.e. and it was guileful as opposed to the things) of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of(i.e. which is beyond) the garden(viz. the "tree" which to the humans is occultism/esotericism), God hath said, Ye shall not eat of(i.e. you must not practise) it, neither shall ye touch(i.e. neither must you explore) it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened(i.e. then occult/yogic perceptions/senses will appear in you - especially the so-called "third eye"), and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil(i.e. and you will be as God Himself - with omniscience and omnipotence like Him). And when the woman saw that the tree was(i.e. that the forbidden "tree" ostensibly seemed to be) good for food, and that it was(i.e. and that it ostensibly seemed to be) pleasant to the eyes(i.e. to the human mind), and a tree to be desired to make one wise(i.e. to make the human being omniscient and omnipotent), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened(i.e. and occult/yogic perceptions/senses appeared in them both - and especially the so-called "third eye"), and they knew that they were naked(i.e. and from that moment on they began to perceive the sex as well as the other physical sense activities and creations of God as shameful/sinful); and they sewed fig leaves(i.e. and they found (great) false spiritual knowledge) together, and made themselves aprons(i.e. and made themselves a human(666) spirituality/religion beginning to defile the sex as well as the other physical sense activities and creations of God by it).",

Revelation 17:8-17 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not(i.e. the gracious/beneficial spirit of the "darkness", a.k.a. sat-cit-ananda, is passing); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth(i.e. and the spiritual/religious violators/offenders) shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is(viz. about how the "beast" appears). And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains(i.e. seven main spirits of the "darkness"/devil), on which the woman sitteth(i.e. on which the system of (the) spiritual/religious iniquity as well as the rise of "kundalini" are based). And there are seven kings(i.e. seven main "chakras" viz. faces of the seven main satanic spirits): five are fallen, and one is(viz. the so-called satanic spiritual process "yoga" is principally concentrated in the sixth chakra which is the so-called "third eye" in the point between the eyebrows, while the first five chakras are dependent), and the other is not yet come(i.e. the seventh chakra is achieved perspectively thereafter); and when he cometh, he must continue a short space(i.e. but its realization cannot last more than 5-6 millennia counted from the day of the original sin on). And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth(i.e. it is the eighth chakra plus the rest in the relevant direction), and is of the seven(i.e. and the seven chakras are dependent on it), and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings(viz. are a group of ten high chakras which are based on the seven main), which have received no kingdom as yet(i.e. which realization comes after the seventh and eighth chakras); but receive power as kings one hour with the beast(i.e. but their realization also cannot last more than 5-6 millennia). These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast(viz. all a total of 12 charkas are aspects of the "beast"(sat-cit-ananda) which is the gracious/beneficial spirit of the "darkness"). These shall make war with the Lamb(viz. the spiritual servants/workers of the "beast" as well as the 12 satanic spirits will make war against Jesus Christ), and the Lamb(i.e. but He) shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings(i.e. for Jesus Christ is the only (true) Lord of all the universe): and(i.e. together with Him will also overcome) they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples(i.e. are believers/worshipers/clerics), and multitudes(i.e. and sects/denominations), and nations(i.e. and religions/creeds), and tongues(i.e. and spiritual/religious doctrines). And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

the satanic spiritual(occult) process of yoga begins with the so-called devilish spirit "kundalini"(a.k.a. the "harlot" in Rev. 17) which has to be passed through the so-called "chakras" upwards which are the main satanic spirits, and there are three main levels: "sat", "cit" and "ananda", a.k.a.: the "dragon/devil/satan", the first "beast", and the second "beast", and the chakras are: seven main, a group of ten high, and two upmost which are an expansion of the ten, then the process of yoga is principally achieved by concentration in the sixth charka, whence the number of the beast is "666"

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads." Revelation 12:3,

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority." Revelation 13:1-2,

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Revelation 13:11-12

Blessings
 
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BobRyan

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God is not going to send UFO's as the strong delusion.

God is not going to send demons from heaven either.

In the Bible - God sends - what God allows.

In 2Thess 2 the devil is let loose to perform all manner of "signs and wonders"

in Rev 13 again the way the world is taken in is with great "signs and wonders".

in Matt 24 "if it were possible he would deceive the very elect".

The idea that the coming deception will be simple to discover and ignore - is not so prevalent in scripture.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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shturt678s

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God is not going to send demons from heaven either.

These demonic delusions just don't fall on their own, ie, Rev.8:7, "and were cast". God was, is, ie, right this moment for example, cast these error's working for those at IIThess.2;10b. :o

In the Bible - God sends - what God allows.

In 2Thess 2 the devil is let loose to perform all manner of "signs and wonders"

in Rev 13 again the way the world is taken in is with great "signs and wonders".

in Matt 24 "if it were possible he would deceive the very elect".

The idea that the coming deception will be simple to discover and ignore - is not so prevalent in scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

Old Jack dodging 'delusions' as much as possible
 
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Alfred Persson

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No I claim the gifts of the Holy Spirit are biblical and for the church today until Christ returns, may God's mercy be upon you

Then it should be easy to cite the Christian denomination that is manifesting precisely what the apostles did on the day of Pentecost. You will be able to cite the apostles among them, the new scripture that is being written, the great and wonderful examples of 100% accurate prediction, and lifestyles that are beyond reproach.

Of if you inconsistently are a partial cessationist and believe only SOME of the apostolic gifts are here today, then name the precise denomination manifesting the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge Paul said would cease, so we can determine if any of their doctrines or manner of life is lawless.

Its only by inspecting carefully their fruit, if they practice lawfulness or lawlessness (Mat 7:21-23) that we can KNOW what spirit is inspiring them.

Its a simple request, one you should be rushing to fulfill.

Your evasion of this request causes the critical minded to suspect you already know they are ALL lawless, and all fail the "fruit test" of Christ.

Thanks in advance.



I do NOT dispute there are some Christians present among the antichristians:

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 "but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 "But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27 "So the servants of the owner came and said to him,`Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28 "He said to them,`An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him,`Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
29 "But he said,`No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 `Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

Eventually Babylon will fall prostrate to the antichrist spirits, demons will happily dwell in her and force the less powerful unclean spirits do Satan's bidding in her, when they would rather flee the coming wrath of God:

31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,
32 "which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches."
33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."
(Mat 13:24-33 NKJ)

2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! (Rev 18:2 NKJ)

That there are Christians among is evident from God calling them to come out of the world empire of Babylonish spiritistic religion---inspired by the mystery of lawlessness:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. (Rev 18:4 NKJ)

So your explanation there are some Christians among those who abuse the gifts, is irrelevant, immaterial, AND utterly incompetent as a rebuttal to my objection.

Even a casual reading of the NT reveals Christians make lots of mistakes and fall into all sorts of sin.

But those manifesting supernatural gifts which confirm the message as being "of God" are held to a higher standard than the average believer. For example, a prophet of God cannot prophesy falsely, and still be inspired by God:

21 "And if you say in your heart,`How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'--
22 "when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deu 18:21-22 NKJ)

THAT is what Christ taught, that all who practice lawlessness, even though they prophesy, cast out demons and do many wonders in His name, can't be doing it by His Holy Spirit as He doesn't know them, and never did:

20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Mat 7:20-23 NKJ)



So I will not charge an entire church to be guilty of lawlessness, because some among it do wrong. I will look at those prophesying, casting out demons, and doing many wonders in Christ's name---TO DETERMINE IF THEY PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS, which can be summed up as disobedience to the Father, to His Holy Word the Bible.

The "fruit test" Christ taught, and what I propose we apply to those you claim manifest such things today, is fair and balanced, nothing unreasonable at all.
 
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Alfred Persson said in post 134:

Eventually Babylon will fall prostrate to the antichrist spirits, demons will happily dwell in her and force the less powerful unclean spirits do Satan's bidding in her, when they would rather flee the coming wrath of God:

31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,
32 "which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches."
33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."
(Mat 13:24-33 NKJ)

While birds can sometimes represent something evil (Matthew 13:4,19), there's nothing evil about birds in themselves. Indeed, they can represent something quite good (Isaiah 40:31), and their being in trees can represent how wonderful God's earthly creation is, such as in Psalms 104:10-17. There, reference is found also to the good "bread which strengtheneth man's heart" (Psalms 104:15), similar to how Jesus followed the parable of the tree with the parable of the making of bread (Matthew 13:32-33). These are good things.

Alfred Persson said in post 134:

Eventually Babylon will fall prostrate to the antichrist spirits, demons will happily dwell in her and force the less powerful unclean spirits do Satan's bidding in her, when they would rather flee the coming wrath of God:

31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,
32 "which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches."
33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."
(Mat 13:24-33 NKJ)

Leaven can represent corruption. For Jesus referred to the false doctrine and hypocrisy of the Pharisees and Sadducees, which had corrupted how the Jews understood and practiced their religion, as being like leaven (Matthew 16:12, Luke 12:1b). And Paul referred to malice and wickedness, which can corrupt church congregations, as being like leaven (1 Corinthians 5:8). He also referred to the false, Pharisaical doctrine that believers have to be physically circumcised and keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (cf. Acts 15:1,5), which doctrine can corrupt church congregations, as being like leaven (Galatians 5:4-14).

But the leaven in Matthew 13:33 and Luke 13:20-21 can't represent corruption, for the kingdom of heaven/God isn't like corruption but is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17). The fact that Leviticus 23:16-17 says the two loaves of the feast of Pentecost had to be leavened suggests the leaven in Leviticus 23:16-17, Matthew 13:33, and Luke 13:20-21 could represent the Holy Spirit, who came upon the church during a feast of Pentecost in the first century AD (Acts 2). The two leavened loaves of Pentecost (Leviticus 23:16-17) could have typified how the Holy Spirit would eventually come upon both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts 10:45). And in Matthew 13:33 and Luke 13:20-21 the woman could represent the church spreading the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6). The 3 measures of meal through which the Holy Spirit is spread (Matthew 13:33) could represent the (roughly) 3 millennia from the time of the Pentecost in Acts 2 (in the first century AD) until the end of the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6).

Also, the 3 measures of meal through which the Holy Spirit is spread (Matthew 13:33) could represent the 3 main groups that the Jews divided humanity into at the time of Jesus' first coming: Israelites, Samaritans (Gentiles who had a quasi-Jewish religion), and Gentiles (Matthew 10:5-6). Israelites were the first to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2), then Samaritans (Acts 8:14-17), then Gentiles (Acts 10:45-46).

Alfred Persson said in post 134:

That there are Christians among is evident from God calling them to come out of the world empire of Babylonish spiritistic religion---inspired by the mystery of lawlessness:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. (Rev 18:4 NKJ)

Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).
 
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Alfred Persson

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I would conclude a true apostle of Christ would not want the notoriety of what the Holy Spirit is doing through them, you may be like the Pharisees who are only looking for a sign or to witness miracles if that is what your after then I would say your heart is in the wrong place
If you believe the bible then you would know that the gifts and the promise is for all who believe, denying this biblical truth is a freedom that God gives you
Paul teaches earnestly seek spiritual gifts
you seem to be on a witchhunt to denounce the work of the Holy Spirit at even the cost of your own soul

Unlike modern "apostles," those whom Christ knew weren't guilty of "notoriety", unfavorable acts.

Your "red herring" publicity would harm the cause of Christ, is absurd:

"Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. (Mat 10:27 NKJ)

Moreover, your argument I'm a Pharisee who would harm the truth, is tantamount to saying light cringes in fear from darkness. Where do you see that in Christ or the apostles He knew, who practiced lawfulness?

And its a red herring what Paul taught about the gifts---the issue is what Christ taught, that those who prophesy, cast out demons, and do many wonders in His Name, NEVER KNEW HIM if they practice lawlessness:

20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Mat 7:20-23 NKJ)

You cannot identify even one "modern sign and wonder working apostle" who doesn't practice lawlessness---THAT IS WHY YOU WON'T NAME THEM, you can't without exposing them to the light.

But lest you think God doesn't have a word for all who sadden and dismay God's people saying "if you don't speak in tongues or experience God as we do, you don't have the Holy Spirit":'

Because you disheartened the righteous with your lies, when I had brought them no grief,
and because you encouraged the wicked not to turn from their evil ways and so save their lives,
therefore you will no longer see false visions or practice divination.

I will save my people from your hands.
And then you will know that I am the LORD.'" -Ezek 13:22-23 NIV


Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."
And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree."

For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant--

to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off.-Isa 56:3-5 NIV

He that is spiritual will agree, THAT was an actual word of the LORD!
 
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Alfred Persson

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While birds can sometimes represent something evil (Matthew 13:4,19), there's nothing evil about birds in themselves. Indeed, they can represent something quite good (Isaiah 40:31), and their being in trees can represent how wonderful God's earthly creation is, such as in Psalms 104:10-17. There, reference is found also to the good "bread which strengtheneth man's heart" (Psalms 104:15), similar to how Jesus followed the parable of the tree with the parable of the making of bread (Matthew 13:32-33). These are good things.



Leaven can represent corruption. For Jesus referred to the false doctrine and hypocrisy of the Pharisees and Sadducees, which had corrupted how the Jews understood and practiced their religion, as being like leaven (Matthew 16:12, Luke 12:1b). And Paul referred to malice and wickedness, which can corrupt church congregations, as being like leaven (1 Corinthians 5:8). He also referred to the false, Pharisaical doctrine that believers have to be physically circumcised and keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (cf. Acts 15:1,5), which doctrine can corrupt church congregations, as being like leaven (Galatians 5:4-14).

But the leaven in Matthew 13:33 and Luke 13:20-21 can't represent corruption, for the kingdom of heaven/God isn't like corruption but is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17). The fact that Leviticus 23:16-17 says the two loaves of the feast of Pentecost had to be leavened suggests the leaven in Leviticus 23:16-17, Matthew 13:33, and Luke 13:20-21 could represent the Holy Spirit, who came upon the church during a feast of Pentecost in the first century AD (Acts 2). The two leavened loaves of Pentecost (Leviticus 23:16-17) could have typified how the Holy Spirit would eventually come upon both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts 10:45). And in Matthew 13:33 and Luke 13:20-21 the woman could represent the church spreading the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6). The 3 measures of meal through which the Holy Spirit is spread (Matthew 13:33) could represent the (roughly) 3 millennia from the time of the Pentecost in Acts 2 (in the first century AD) until the end of the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6).

Also, the 3 measures of meal through which the Holy Spirit is spread (Matthew 13:33) could represent the 3 main groups that the Jews divided humanity into at the time of Jesus' first coming: Israelites, Samaritans (Gentiles who had a quasi-Jewish religion), and Gentiles (Matthew 10:5-6). Israelites were the first to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2), then Samaritans (Acts 8:14-17), then Gentiles (Acts 10:45-46).

...snip

To understand these illustrations superficially as picturing the growth of the Gospel in the world is to miss entirely Christ's stated reason for speaking them:

[FONT=&quot]10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 12 "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:`Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Mat 13:10-15 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Christ as master tactician is instructing His command revealing the "secrets (mysteries) of the kingdom" to strategize and identify strengths and weaknesses of the Gospel's advance---SO "whoever has, to him more will be given"; SO "They understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These aren't "idle" illustrations of the growth of Christianity, the context begins revealing the Telepathic devices the Devil successfully uses to hinder the advance of the gospel. The Devil is able to "join" a person's inner debate about the gospel and argue against it::[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]19[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. (Mat 13:19 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Then Christ reveals personal defects that damage the gospel's advance:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]20[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 21 "yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 22 "Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. (Mat 13:20-22 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And finally what attitude of the heart undergirds the Gospel's advance:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]23[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Mat 13:23 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Christ continues revealing what affects the gospel's advance, so we can be on guard lest "Satan should take advantage of us" because we are "ignorant of his devices" (2 Cor 2:11):[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]24[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 25 "but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 26 "But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 27 "So the servants of the owner came and said to him,`Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 28 "He said to them,`An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him,`Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 29 "But he said,`No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 30 `Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'" (Mat 13:24-30 NKJ)[/FONT]

Verse 24 "Another ([FONT=&quot]allos[/FONT]) parable" like the one before it, same purpose:

[FONT=&quot] allos[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]ἄλλος[/FONT][FONT=&quot], 243) and heteros ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]ἄλλος[/FONT][FONT=&quot], 2087) have a difference in meaning, which despite a tendency to be lost, is to be observed in numerous passages. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes “another of the same sort”; heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes “another of a different sort.”-[/FONT] Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Nashville, TN: T. Nelson.

Christ warns there will be false brethren in their midst, betraying them, put there by the enemy of the gospel's advance. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Vigilance is required to ferret these out, lest they be surrounded by them as they slept. Christ explains why God permits they remain till the harvest, lest not knowing materially affect their faith.

[FONT=&quot]31[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Another ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]allos)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 32 "which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches." (Mat 13:31-32 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This seed was in fact the smallest of the garden seeds known. (Orchard seeds, though smaller, were unknown in that part of the world.) -[/FONT] Barbieri, L. A., Jr. (1985). Matthew. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 2, p. 51). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

This is another [FONT=&quot]([/FONT][FONT=&quot]allos) [/FONT]warning, phenomenal growth does not indicate all is well, they should guard the flanks as what is easily defended and explained becomes big and complicated allowing deceiving spirits roost and attack the purity of the gospel from within.

[FONT=&quot]33[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Another ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]allos) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened." (Mat 13:33 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Then Jesus said to them, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees." (Mat 16:6 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore Christ's words about "the birds of the air come and nest in its branches." (Mat 13:32 NKJ)" prefigures John's words in Revelation:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! (Rev 18:2 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Is fallen, is fallen" is repeated twice to indicate the intensity of the fall, its completeness.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]As Christendom grows, it deviates from the simplicity of the gospel, the mustard seed of Truth, till it falls completely to the demons inhabiting its branches. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That is why the great falling away of the church must come first before the man of sin can rise in her, the "temple of God" (1 Cor 3:16, 17) "so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." (2Th 2:4 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" (Mat 13:9 NKJ)[/FONT]
 
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Alfred Persson

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Very simply, the strong delusion is that the Antichrist is god. They'll believe him which is why they receive his mark.

Yes, simply speaking, that is 100% correct.

But it fails to describe the entire phenomena (content of the strong delusion) that is an essential part of accepting the Antichrist is God.

Events (that are part of the Mystery ["secret power"] of lawlessness) convince people he is God, and all of that you are leaving out.

Its more plausible Satan is conditioning mankind to accept the existence of UFOs, because he will use that to render all that is presently called God or worshiped, "obsolete" and so take the world's religions out of way of the New Antichrist religion, than to believe the Devil spends all that time and resources making people believe in UFOs, for no other purpose.
 
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Very simply, the strong delusion is that the Antichrist is god. They'll believe him which is why they receive his mark.

Easy to say IMO but how does he accomplish it? I suppose that's not in the OP question then, my bad.

I don't see any benefit in what it is as we are proof of a strong delusion by all of the confusion in the world; I am more interested in knowing how God administers the delusion. I'm using your post as an example, only. Thanks :)
 
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Ronald

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Easy to say IMO but how does he accomplish it? I suppose that's not in the OP question then, my bad.

I don't see any benefit in what it is as we are proof of a strong delusion by all of the confusion in the world; I am more interested in knowing how God administers the delusion. I'm using your post as an example, only. Thanks :)
How does God do anything? His mind, his will, He speaks it and it's done.
He spiritually blinded the Jews, He hardened Pharaoh's heart until he administered 10 ten plagues. POWER. In the end times, the RESTRAINER will be taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit restrains evil. When the church is raptured, nothing will restrain evil and man will be left to his own demise, understandings and beliefs.
 
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