What is the purpose of the Sabbath?

SabbathBlessings

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But... it can be the same time of day and both the seventh day and the first day at the same time. So if it matters whether it's the seventh day or the first day, then the dateline becomes critical.

I think we agree that the dateline is not in the scriptures. Does God want it to be where it is now? Or is it supposed to be in the Atlantic? Or through the middle of London, or Jerusalem, or New Delhi?
There is a seventh day around the world and we can all keep the Sabbath holy on the seventh day, just the way the scriptures state. There are very few anomalies and I am sure those who wish to keep the commandment find a way to do so. God does not judge us based on other peoples circumstances, so I would worry less about others since you can keep the Sabbath evening to evening on the seventh day. If your reason to God is because this person didn’t- well that can be between you and God. I look at the scriptures differently and try not to find ways to outsmart the text, which we can’t, but instead rearrange my life so I can obey God the way He has asked.
 
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Leaf473

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There is a seventh day around the world and we can all keep the Sabbath holy on the seventh day, just the way the scriptures state. There are very few anomalies and I am sure those who wish to keep the commandment find a way to do so. God does not judge us based on other peoples circumstances, so I would worry less about others since you can keep the Sabbath evening to evening on the seventh day. If your reason to God is because this person didn’t- well that can be between you and God. I look at the scriptures differently and try not to find ways to outsmart the text, but instead rearrange my life so I can obey God the way He has asked.
I'm not trying to outsmart the text, either. Put the dateline in the middle of the the Atlantic, and what had been the seventh day is now the first day. That's not an anomaly, the dateline affects the entire world.

Now... if it's just *a* seventh day somewhere, then it doesn't seem like it would matter if other people are calling it the first day. Again, this probably means that the Sabbath is not about a literal day.

The Peace of the Lord be always with you!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I'm not trying to outsmart the text, either. Put the dateline in the middle of the the Atlantic, and what had been the seventh day is now the first day. That's not an anomaly, the dateline affects the entire world.

Now... if it's just *a* seventh day somewhere, then it doesn't seem like it would matter if other people are calling it the first day. Again, this probably means that the Sabbath is not about a literal day.

The Peace of the Lord be always with you!
God said the seventh day, after 6 days of working starting on the first day, so there is a seventh day around the world. Can you not locate the seventh day where you’re at? Perhaps I can help…. What city do you live in?

Perhaps this will help as well…

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/documents/chart-of-the-week.pdf
 
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Leaf473

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God said the seventh day, after 6 days of working starting on the first day, so there is a seventh day around the world. Can you not locate the seventh day where you’re at? Perhaps I can help…. What city do you live in?
Let's say that I live in Pittsburgh.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Let's say that I live in Pittsburgh.
Sunrise and sunset times in Pittsburgh

In bible times they did not have the luxury of technology, but would start preparing for the Sabbath on Friday, which is called the Preparation Day for the Sabbath. Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54 that way when the sun would set they were ready to keep God’s Sabbath day holy as commanded. God would not give a commandment that could not be kept, so we can look for 101 reasons how it can’t be kept or find ways to obey. I personally prefer the latter.

Anyway, its all the time I have for now. Take care.
 
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Leaf473

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Sunrise and sunset times in Pittsburgh

In bible times they did not have the luxury of technology, but would start preparing for the Sabbath on Friday, which is called the Preparation Day for the Sabbath. Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54 that way when the sun would set they were ready to keep God’s Sabbath day holy as commanded. God would not give a commandment that could not be kept, so we can look for 101 reasons how it can’t be kept or find ways to obey. I personally prefer the latter.

Anyway, its all the time I have for now. Take care.
Yes, our good friends at timeanddate.com are basing that on the international date line, aren't they?

The IDL was made by humans. I'm a human, so suppose I put the date line in the middle of the Atlantic. When is the seventh day sunset?

(Again, this is about the purpose of the Sabbath because the issue of a 24-hour day or not is important when discussing the purpose.)

Peace be with you!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yes, our good friends at timeanddate.com are basing that on the international date line, aren't they?

The IDL was made by humans. I'm a human, so suppose I put the date line in the middle of the Atlantic. When is the seventh day sunset?

(Again, this is about the purpose of the Sabbath because the issue of a 24-hour day or not is important when discussing the purpose.)

Peace be with you!
And yet they can locate the seventh day and sunset to sunset where you live, look at that, you too can keep the Sabbath.

Exodus 20:10 the seventh day is the Sabbath
 
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Leaf473

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And yet they can locate the seventh day and sunset to sunset where you live, look at that, you too can keep the Sabbath.
Yes, they can locate the Seventh Day based on the international date line. The IDL was made by humans. If humans move it to a different place, what day it is changes as well.

Peace be with you!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Leaf473

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People have been able to keep the Sabbath without having the IDL . Which is why we serve God and not humans.

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/documents/chart-of-the-week.pdf
People have been able to keep a day as the Sabbath.

Sunset makes a continuous path around the earth, never stopping. If it is important to keep a particular sunset as the start of the Sabbath, then it's important to know where that Sabbath sunset starts.

As far as I know, the scriptures are silent on that.

(Keeping the thread topic in mind that once a literal Sabbath is seen as not supported by God today, then the metaphorical meanings of the Sabbath are available.)
 
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SabbathBlessings

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People have been able to keep a day as the Sabbath.

Sunset makes a continuous path around the earth, never stopping. If it is important to keep a particular sunset as the start of the Sabbath, then it's important to know where that Sabbath sunset starts.

As far as I know, the scriptures are silent on that.

(Keeping the thread topic in mind that once a literal Sabbath is seen as not supported by God today, then the metaphorical meanings of the Sabbath are available.)
Yes, the sun setting at different times does not change anything. People in scripture were able to keep the Sabbath, because they prepared on Friday and when the sun started setting, they knew it was Sabbath.

I find it so odd that people would think God would give us such a clear commandment, but not have the ability to keep, which is why that's not the case thankfully for those who want to obey. We could tear apart every commandment we didn't want to keep, or we could just keep them and obey God. I think God wants us to choose the latter, but we have free will.
 
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DamianWarS

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Does that apply to you? Can you not locate Friday night sunset to Saturday night sunset where you live? I don’t think we are judged based on other peoples circumstances.

PS- I did not realize the thread I was posting in when I get the notification of someone responding to me. To the OP if you want everyone to stay on topic you might address other posters who are asking questions that are off topic as well.
Agreed, let's us all stick to the topic, if you spot it, you are welcome to call it out, but don't use that as an excuse for yourself. I will explicltly state, as I have already, we are addressing purpose, not requirement. I'm not challenging requirment and your are free to accept whatever it is you accept, just keep it out of here. This is about purpose.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Agreed, let's us all stick to the topic, if you spot it, you are welcome to call it out.
Thanks, I'm sorry for continuing off topic. I'm just going to bow out of this thread...

PS: To all -please do not respond to my posts further in this thread....
 
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Leaf473

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Yes, the sun setting at different times does not change anything. People in scripture were able to keep the Sabbath, because they prepared on Friday and when the sun started setting, they knew it was Sabbath.

I find it so odd that people would think God would give us such a clear commandment, but not have the ability to keep, which is why that's not the case thankfully for those who want to obey. We could tear apart every commandment we didn't want to keep, or we could just keep them and obey God. I think God wants us to choose the latter, but we have free will.
People in Bible times all lived in pretty much the same area. They had no idea that sunset was happening at different times in different parts of the world. God didn't see fit to inspire any scriptures on the subject, as far as I know.

Fortunately, the scriptures are not our only source of information about God. We also have God's eternal qualities visible in the world around us.

What does a continuously moving seventh sunset tell us about the purpose of the Sabbath? I think it says that the Sabbath is continuously starting. The purpose, then, would be continuous spiritual renewal.

The Peace of the Lord be with you always!
 
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Leaf473

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Yes, the sun setting at different times does not change anything. People in scripture were able to keep the Sabbath, because they prepared on Friday and when the sun started setting, they knew it was Sabbath.

I find it so odd that people would think God would give us such a clear commandment, but not have the ability to keep, which is why that's not the case thankfully for those who want to obey. We could tear apart every commandment we didn't want to keep, or we could just keep them and obey God. I think God wants us to choose the latter, but we have free will.
Also, I understand that many of the ideas on this thread will sound odd to you. I think that's because many of the ideas are based on abstract concepts in the scriptures.

I suspect that you like concrete concepts. And that's cool! We can talk about how good clear scriptures relate to specific laws here, if you wish.
Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

Peace be with you!
 
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Leaf473

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PS: To all -please do not respond to my posts further in this thread....
Sorry, didn't see this until after I had written my last couple posts. Do you want me to go back and edit out your quotes in those posts?
 
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philadelphos

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Also, I understand that many of the ideas on this thread will sound odd to you. I think that's because many of the ideas are based on abstract concepts in the scriptures.

I suspect that you like concrete concepts. And that's cool! We can talk about how good clear scriptures relate to specific laws here, if you wish.
Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

Peace be with you!

Both abstract and concrete concepts exist in Scripture.

Sabbath being an under-taught and a concealed topic, to understand it requires an open mind. SB I sense is closed-minded from dogmatic/legalistic ritualism ("you must keep sabbath because God says"... "you must keep sabbath or else"... "you must keep sabbath because our denomination says we keep sabbath" etc), plus hyper-literalism and hyper-sola scriptura (following Scripture to the exclusion of reasoning from 'extra-biblical' knowledge/wisdom). Together this becomes superstition less logic/rationale/reason, and blunts the mind from doing critical thinking. "Purpose" cannot be understood because of this.

"Purpose" is to discuss why, what, how, when, etc. It's investigative, inquisitive, not about challenging requirement or God's law/word, although that is a side discussion. It's to understand God's heart. Whereas dogma/religiosity/legalism is only trained to regurgitate the official doctrine/view/stance. Robotic. Heartless. Mindless. Artificial. And uninspiring.
 
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philadelphos

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The purpose of sabbath is for laying down divisions/proportions, from individual to the world. It points to salvation via Christ, as world restoration.

Sabbath does not begin at Christ’s life/ministry. Just as the Gospel is for “the world” so too is sabbath universal and pre-dates Christ. Christ is the object of Sabbath not the catalyst of sabbath. “For in six days the Lord made” (Ex 20:11-12) as in the Father made sabbath, not the Son. — Although many Gentile converts may honour sabbath because of “Christ” due to Evangelicalism and Christendom, the Early Church and many other branches of Judeo-Christianity and Messianic-Judaism honour sabbath for more primitive reasons.

“This much, however, is certain, that the Hebrew Sabbath is not only older than the Decalogue of the Exodus, which connects it with the Creation week, as does the Elohist in the first chapter of Genesis, but also older than the original form of the Decalogue: זכור את יוס השבת לקרשו which refers to the Sabbath as an established and known institution, and is by no means a new commandment” (see Kohler for detailed discussion about implicit language in Torah and how the Sabbath predates Sinai, pp 210) Accept Terms and Conditions on JSTOR — The sabbath-chiasmus from a couple post demonstrates this.

’Sabbath’ is a loan word/concept that has many connections to the world around us.

Etymologically, “shabbatu" refers to a "day of rest for the heart" (JT Nichols, The Origin of the Hebrew Sabbath, 1891, p38) The Origin of the Hebrew Sabbath on JSTOR

Sabbath comes from Akkadian culture 2334–2154 BC, predating Sinai ~960 BC (Josephus). It’s adopted later into the Babylonian calendar system which influenced the Jews during their Babylonian Captivity 608 to 538 BC. Almost all original Hebrew names of months remain lost in current use, replaced by Babylonians names.

Proof is in the 2 creation accounts in Genesis based on 4 source texts:
  1. Jehovist
  2. Elohist
  3. Jehovist-Elohist
  4. Priestly
(RE Friedman, Who Wrote the Bible, 1997)

As to timing and geography, Sabbath comes from nations in SW Asia. Time is split according to the Akkadian lunar division: lunar month > half month or 14 days > 2 lesser divisions of 7 days.

4 sabbaths correspond to the 4 moon phases:
  1. New Moon
  2. First Quarter
  3. Full Moon
  4. Third Quarter (Last Quarter)
image-20_med.png


Sabbath corresponding to moon phases is presumed knowledge from Babylonian culture. Although the commandment references creation it doesn’t specify that sabbath-keeping is achieved by following ‘days of creation’, which many believe to be allegorical/metaphorical/poetic and not literal days of creation. — Physicists explain creation as a arc leading to event horizon and Adam’s first breath of life. Similarly, “Black holes are evidence of God’s care… As black holes gravitationally draw matter toward their event horizons, a high proportion of this matter is converted into energy.” (H Ross 2021) Together this forms an ’alpha and omega’ model of mankind’s creation to final destiny.

“Sabbath” itself is the singular form of the dual form of sabbath, 15 days.

Sabbath then is about proportions/divisions: The division of a month, 4 out of 30 days, 2 out of 15 days, or 1 out of 7-7.5 days; or 13.3% of one’s lifetime. God is teaching a person to count proportions, times for work, rest, holiness.

Sabbath is not a standalone concept/commandment as it's built into the Hebrew calendar, tying into moedim, God’s times, seasons, calendar, feasts, as times to repent, forgive one another, preparing for judgement, receiving mercy, grace, forgiveness, and eventually ‘salvation’.

3 concepts linked together in Col 2:16, “holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days” — Sabbath here is pluralised because the concept of sabbath is plural, not singular/weekly but monthly, which then pertains to calendars and timekeeping.

In Scripture, counting always begins at “the new moon”, where new moons and sabbaths are mentioned together:

1 Sam 20:5, 18, 24, 27; Ps 81:3, Num 10:10, 28:11, Ezek 46:6, Ex 40:2, 17, Num 1:18, 29:1, Deu 1:3, 2 Ki 4:23, 1 Chron 23:31, 2 Chron 2:4, 8:13, 31:3, Neh 10:33, Isa 1:13, 14, 66:23, Ezek 45:17, 46:1. 3. 6. Hos 2:11, Amos 8:5, Col 2:16

The purpose of sabbath in light of moedim, makes perfect sense to an agrarian people not herding people (let alone tech or city people). e.g. biblical numerology, month names, coincide with agricultural seasons. Noting that agrarianism came about upon reaching the Promised Land.—2.5 tribes settled prematurely in Jordan before crossing into Canaan/Palestine for better herding land. Gad, Reuben, and half of Mannasseh, were concerned “for their cattle” (see Num 32). An order of creation (re-creation) is embedded here, beginning at Jerusalem, then Jordan, and others. Directions “East and West” of Jerusalem.— It almost implies that Babylon (and Eastern culture) will find "rest for their hearts" in the Promised Land.

“Rest” in sabbath is literally and physically about reaching the Promised Land to “rest”, it’s more than ‘holy convocation’. The formality is to reflect the reality, not for formality's sake alone.

Proof is in Zech 14:

“And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.” (Zech 14:16-17)

Sabbath is a derivative of Shavuot (Feast of Weeks) or “Pentecost”. The 10 day event contains at least 1 commemorative sabbath. It's contextually different to the token weekly sabbath.

Tools for Sabbath are indeed found within Scripture without excluding the context/period/culture Scripture was written, per Babylonian culture not Western/Anglo/Gregorian. Easterners and Far Easterners may sabbath understand better being culturally non-Greco-Roman.

To demonstrate,

The sabbath commandment is an incomplete/imperfect event.

Shabat + gamar = shabbatum = full moon + completion:

“(Modern Assyriologists say that) Shabbatum designates exclusively the full moon. Combining with it the etymology of Shabat, which is elsewhere explained by gamar 'to complete,' they explain the term Shabbatum to be the time of the completion of the moon's light, 'when the sun on the other side of the sky casts its full light upon it.’ Prof. Jastrow goes even so far as to explain the ממחרת השבת to have meant originally the morrow of the full moon, because the Passover feast begins on the 15th of Nisan…” (Kohler, pp 210)

“It seems to me that we are not in a position as yet to assume with any kind of certainty that the Hebrew Sabbath was simply taken over from the Babylonians, at least in historical times. Like all the things Babylonians and Hebrews had in common, the Sabbath seems to me to belong to an older epoch when the Babylonian lore was not as yet developed, and the Hebrew Sabbath may just as well throw light on the Babylonian Shabbatum as vice versa. Each had its own process of growth.”

In practice, Jerusalem has it’s own time. For diaspora Jews there are different times/rules. The difference is perennial calendar + rabbinical council vs non-perennial calendar + non-rabbinical timekeepers.

John J Parsons:

“The date of Jewish holidays does not change from year to year. However, since the Jewish year is not the same length as the solar year on the Gregorian calendar, the date will appear to “shift” when viewed from the perspective of the Gregorian calendar.”

Nevertheless,

"Rabbincal tradition states there are about 165 "missing years" from the date of the destruction of the First Temple to the date of the destruction of the Second Temple. Others suggest that there are some missing years in the Hebrew calendar due to a corruption in the accounting of the years of the Persian monarchies, and that these years were consciously suppressed in order to disguise the dact that Daniels' prophecy of the 70 weeks pointed to Yeshua as the true Mashiach of Israel. In short, educated uncertainty exists regarding the exact year we are living in since the Creation of the Universe by God…”
Introduction to the Jewish Calendar

Referencing the Jews is right, except Jews are in every corner of the world, under every government, and there are MANY divisions since the 12 tribes... Each group has kept and keeps God's commandments slightly differently.
  1. Assyrian Sabbath
  2. Babylonian Sabbath
  3. Greek Sabbath
  4. Roman Republican
  5. Julian
  6. Gregorian
This adds to the confusion because Mishnah or "Oral Torah" as opposed to "written Torah" (Talmud or the OT), is oral tradition or traditional teaching, i.e. what we Gentiles call "doctrine", "preaching", or "commentaries", which although is rejected by anti-semitic Christendom is actually evident within the NT. David Pitcher has been researching this.

K Kohler:

“The Sabbath and the festivals have gone through a process of evolution which we must try to unravel and which few of our historians have made clear. Nor have our Assyriologists succeeded in elucidating this process, especially in regard to the Sabbath, as the recent work of Morris Jastrow, Hebrew and Babylonian Traditions, and an article of his on 'The Day after the Sabbath' (AJSL 30. 94 if.) seem to show.”

Focusing on the time technicality for Sabbath is a red herring IMO because the purpose of Sabbath is a sign “that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.” (Ex 31:13)

Ordinances and laws: "And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do." (Ex 18:20)

Holiness vs profanity: "And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean" (Ezek 44:23)

The "sign" pertains to knowledge of sanctification. It points toward a future time when work is obsolete and unnecessary following Christ’s restoration. He being the object of the Sabbath, the ‘Lord of the Sabbath’, rest and peace stem from him. -- Believers in sola fide as "salvation by faith alone" right now will struggle to grasp this. Anyone who thinks heaven is already here right now will fail to grasp this. Anyone who believes Christ is here right now will fail to grasp this. Because those are self-fulfilling frameworks that do not require "hope".

The paradox is this: When sabbath is kept technically it becomes ‘work’ i.e. works-based faith or works-based salvation, because the focus of life revolves around work, the working week or ordinary week. Rest then becomes contingent upon work, reserved for after work. This is the irony/conflict/paradox/catch, cursed from Adam.

Adam, however, was born into rest, his “first day” was a rest or sabbath day. “Sabbath was made for man” because God literally made sabbath THEN placed Adam in it to enjoy his creation. Sabbath is the turning point between uninhabitable to inhabitable, incomplete to complete, creating to created.

When God breathed life into Adam, Adams 'first day' coincided with this environment and timing, so it can be said that Sabbath unites man with God, or vice versa. Synchronised.

But our sabbath experience is different to Adam's, ours is a return to Adam's sabbath. Our 'sabbath' is not an end in itself. Dogma and legalism can become obstacles this way. Focusing on "sunset" is fine but more importantly is the meaning behind that, what we do or don't do once the sun sets: EAT with loved ones and commemorate God/Christ > enter sabbath > thank God for blessings in between > closing religious ceremony approaching the 2nd sunset.

The weekly sabbath is partial, part of the month, part of the year. It's also responsorial, responding to God after the week/period, after realising/recognising his commandment.

The perfected or completed sabbath starts with God, not man. This rest arrives once HE has completed his work and has rested. Weekly schedules/ritualism, time-keeping, even religion is unimportant, compared to the 'message' or 'teaching' behind the commandment as it points to salvation in Paradise, life to the fullest.

“And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.” (Rev 21:23)
 
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