What is the obligation of the Christian?

ace of hearts

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In Jeremiah 31:31-33, the New Covenant still involves following God's Law, so I am in complete agreement that that and Luke 22:20 and neither of those verses contradict what I said. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all either leading us in the same direction, or they are in disagreement about which direction we should be led. While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same ways and therefore the same instructions for how to walk in His ways. For example, if the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness changed when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but it is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with His righteousness will always be eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under. So while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, God's eternal righteousness and righteous laws did not become obsolete along with it.
Obey God's law, yes and amen. Be obligated to the famous 10, no way. What you do is sub in "God's Law" for the famous 10. This is sophistry. Jeremiah clearly says the New Covenant isn't like the previous covenant, referencing the famous 10 Moses clearly says are the covenant made with Israel. Deut 4 and 5. Furthermore Rom 8 says those who walk in the Spirit of the law in Christ Jesus. It doesn't say those who walk in the spirit of the Law (famous 10). Gal 5 Says led by the Spirit. It doesn't say led by the law. Gal 4 even says to throw out the law. Gal 3 says the law is unemployed. Gal 5 also says those who turn/return to the law void their salvation.
The 1,050 is just a list I've seen. The number of commands in the Bible is somewhat variable depending upon the counter and you could even question whether there are 613 commandments in the OT if you wanted to, though they are in the general ballpark. However, my point was not about the exact number of commandments in the Bible, but about the fact that however many there are, they all make up God's instructions for how He wants us to love Him and our neighbor.
So your point is really about being legal thereby earning one's salvation.
Sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law, and in Romans 6:1-13, we are no longer to continue in sin now that we have died to sin. Being baptized into Christ is being baptized into his death, so that when Christ was raised from the dead we too might in newness of life. It says that our old self has been crucified with him so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin, not so that we would would be free to sin. We have been set free from sin so that we can be free to obey the Law. We are no longer to present ourselves as instruments of unrighteousness is disobedience to the Law, but as instruments of righteousness in obedience to it. Everything in Romans 6 is speaking in favor of obeying God's Law and against disobeying it. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to free us from the Law, but the redeem us from all Lawlessness. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do the things that God revealed in His Law to be sin.
There's nothing in Romans even hinting to allegiance or requiring submission to the law. Your insistence is those who don't keep the 4th commandment are lawless. It isn't about those who don't murder, lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. You've no evidence that anyone here is guilty of the above except maybe lying. So are the deceived actually lying? Yes! They're spreading false information. So it comes back to Jer 31:31-33. That also means it comes back to LK 22:20 where Jesus admits this new and different covenant is current. You promote an amended continuing covenant.
All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His Law, and even Christ began his ministry with that message, so it would make no sense to interpret Galatians 5 as Paul warning us against doing that and saying that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ. Paul was a servant of God, not His enemy, who said that our faith does not abolish God's Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying God. The issue that Paul was speaking against Galatians was with obeying works of the law, not against God's Law.
It isn't about whether or not Paul makes any sense to you. What Paul says in Gal 5 is consistent with the Gospels. The sheep know the voice of the Shepard, Jesus. They don't know the voice of thieves and robbers, the law.

Jn 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Jn 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Jn 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
 
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BNR32FAN

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There seems to be a holy war about what the Christian is obligated to preform after being born again. I'd like to see both sides of this war supported with Scripture.

I’m sorry I don’t have time to post the scriptures for all but we are called to love God, love each other, spread the gospel, produce fruit (do good works), and refrain from sin.
 
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ace of hearts

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I’m sorry I don’t have time to post the scriptures for all but we are called to love God, love each other, spread the gospel, produce fruit (do good works), and refrain from sin.
I've no problem with that.
 
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Soyeong

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Obey God's law, yes and amen. Be obligated to the famous 10, no way. What you do is sub in "God's Law" for the famous 10. This is sophistry.

It is not clear to me why you think referring to the laws that God has given as "God's Law" is sophistry or why you think that is not inclusive of the Ten Commandments.

Jeremiah clearly says the New Covenant isn't like the previous covenant, referencing the famous 10 Moses clearly says are the covenant made with Israel. Deut 4 and 5.

The covenant that they ended up making contained a lot more than just the Ten Commandments. In Exodus 19:5-6, the covenant was predicated on the condition that the people would hear and obey God's voice and become a nation of priests, but that never happened because upon hearing God's voice, they got cold feet and want Moses to act as a mediator instead. So it became necessary for Moses to write down addition instructions for how to walk in God's ways in lieu of the people being directed by God's voice (Deuteronomy 5:22-33)

Saying that two things are not alike is not the same as saying that they have nothing in common. The New Covenant involves God putting His Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it, so the way that they are no alike is not in regard to God's Law, but rather as Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 describe, the difference is in regard to having a superior mediator and being based on better promises. Nothing is said about the difference being that it is made with a superior God with superior laws.

Furthermore Rom 8 says those who walk in the Spirit of the law in Christ Jesus. It doesn't say those who walk in the spirit of the Law (famous 10). Gal 5 Says led by the Spirit. It doesn't say led by the law.

The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, but rather in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey His Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as being works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. The fruits of the Spirit are the character traits of God, and the Bible consistently describes the character of God's Law in the same terms as it describes the character of God, so it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits. For example, God's Law is righteous because it instructs us how to act in accordance with His righteous, and you did not interact with my argument for why these instructions are eternally valid.

Gal 4 even says to throw out the law. Gal 3 says the law is unemployed. Gal 5 also says those who turn/return to the law void their salvation.

Again, the problem in Galatians is with works of the law, not with God's Law. Paul was a servant of God, not his enemy.

So your point is really about being legal thereby earning one's salvation.

I spoke about obedience to God is about expressing our love for Him and said nothing remotely close to it being about legally earning our salvation.

There's nothing in Romans even hinting to allegiance or requiring submission to the law. Your insistence is those who don't keep the 4th commandment are lawless. It isn't about those who don't murder, lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. You've no evidence that anyone here is guilty of the above except maybe lying. So are the deceived actually lying? Yes! They're spreading false information. So it comes back to Jer 31:31-33. That also means it comes back to LK 22:20 where Jesus admits this new and different covenant is current. You promote an amended continuing covenant.

Sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law, so requiring us to refrain from sin is requiring us to live in obedience to God's Law. Again, everything in Romans 6 is speaking in favor of obedience to God and against disobedience to Him. For example, in Romans 6:15, being under grace does mean that we are permitted to sin. In 6:16, we are to present ourselves to God as slaves of obedience, which leads to righteousness, not as slaves to sin, which leads to death. In 6:17, we are once slaves of sin, but have become obedient from the heart. In 6:18, we have been set free from sin and become slaves of righteousness. In 6:19, we are to no longer present ourselves as slaves to impurity and Lawlessness leading to more Lawlessness, but as slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification. I was not speaking specifically about the 4th Commandment, though it is straightforwardly true that we are Lawless to the degree that we refuse to submit to God's Law.

It isn't about whether or not Paul makes any sense to you. What Paul says in Gal 5 is consistent with the Gospels. The sheep know the voice of the Shepard, Jesus. They don't know the voice of thieves and robbers, the law.

Jn 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Jn 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Jn 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

When discussing how Galatians 5 should be interpreted, it is important to be able to explain how your interpretation makes sense, and interpretations that make sense should be preferred over those that do not. While I agree that Paul said in Galatians 5 is consistent with the Gospels, there is nothing about your interpretation of what he said that is consistent with the Gospels. There is nothing about hearing and following Christ's voice than involves refusing to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to follow by word and by example.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It is not clear to me why you think referring to the laws that God has given as "God's Law" is sophistry or why you think that is not inclusive of the Ten Commandments.



The covenant that they ended up making contained a lot more than just the Ten Commandments. In Exodus 19:5-6, the covenant was predicated on the condition that the people would hear and obey God's voice and become a nation of priests, but that never happened because upon hearing God's voice, they got cold feet and want Moses to act as a mediator instead. So it became necessary for Moses to write down addition instructions for how to walk in God's ways in lieu of the people being directed by God's voice (Deuteronomy 5:22-33)

Saying that two things are not alike is not the same as saying that they have nothing in common. The New Covenant involves God putting His Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it, so the way that they are no alike is not in regard to God's Law, but but rather as Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 describe, the difference is in regard to having a superior mediator and being based on better promises. Nothing is said about the difference being that it is made with a superior God with superior laws.



The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, but rather in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey His Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as being works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. The fruits of the Spirit are the character traits of God, and the Bible consistently describes the character of God's Law in the same terms as it describes the character of God, so it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits. For example, God's Law is righteous because it instructs us how to act in accordance with His righteous, and you did not interact with my argument for why these instructions are eternally valid.



Again, the problem in Galatians is with works of the law, not with works of the Law. Paul was a servant of God, not his enemy.



I spoke about obedience to God is about expressing our love for Him and said nothing remotely close to it being about legally earning our salvation.



Sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law, so requiring us to refrain from sin is requiring us to live in obedience to God's Law. Again, everything in Romans 6 is speaking in favor of obedience to God and against disobedience to him. For example, in Romans 6:15, being under grace does mean that we are permitted to sin. In 6:16, we are to present ourselves to God as slaves of obedience, which leads to righteousness, not as slaves to sin, which leads to death. In 6:17, we are once slaves of sin, but have become obedient from the heart. In 6:18, we have been set free from sin and become slaves of righteousness. In 6:19, we are to no longer present ourselves as slaves to impurity and Lawlessness leading to more Lawlessness, but as slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification. I was not speaking specifically about the 4th Commandment, though it is straightforwardly true that we are Lawless to the degree that we refuse to submit to God's Law.



When discussing how Galatians 5 should be interpreted, it is important to be able to explain how your interpretation makes sense, and interpretations that make sense should be preferred over those that do not. While I agree that Paul said in Galatians 5 is consistent with the Gospels, there is nothing about your interpretation of what he said that is consistent with the Gospels. There is nothing about hearing and following Christ's voice than involves refusing to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to follow by word and by example.

Hello brother Soyeong, Yep indeed!

I read your posts alot and am surprised how much I agree with what you share from God's WORD. Thanks for sharing here. It is very encouraging to read from someone who knows God's WORD.

God bless.
 
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ace of hearts

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It is not clear to me why you think referring to the laws that God has given as "God's Law" is sophistry or why you think that is not inclusive of the Ten Commandments.
My guess is this sentence from my post didn't register with you for some reason.

"What you do is sub in "God's Law" for the famous 10."

There's nothing I posted to indicate I don't believe the famous 10 aren't part of God's law. The deal for me what is objected to is the 4th commandment of the famous 10. It isn't the complete law. So the reality is the focus is the famous 10. The famous 10 are the covenant as Moses said - Deut 4:13.
The covenant that they ended up making contained a lot more than just the Ten Commandments. In Exodus 19:5-6, the covenant was predicated on the condition that the people would hear and obey God's voice and become a nation of priests, but that never happened because upon hearing God's voice, they got cold feet and want Moses to act as a mediator instead. So it became necessary for Moses to write down addition instructions for how to walk in God's ways in lieu of the people being directed by God's voice (Deuteronomy 5:22-33)
Covenant or other requirements? If the covenant included more than the famous 10 why aren't you also objecting to others trimming their beard, not wearing tzitzit on their garments among many other requirements of the law? I think you throw in the part about their cold feet. I don't see it in Scripture.
Saying that two things are not alike is not the same as saying that they have nothing in common. The New Covenant involves God putting His Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it, so the way that they are no alike is not in regard to God's Law, but but rather as Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 describe, the difference is in regard to having a superior mediator and being based on better promises. Nothing is said about the difference being that it is made with a superior God with superior laws.
It's patently untrue that something in common makes things the same. For instance paint can contain different pigments of color and even texture, but is still paint: just not the same paint. The covenants are the same way. Jeremiah won't allow the same covenant law to be placed on our heart. The word Jeremiah uses is new meaning never before. Verse 33 backs this claim up. Movement isn't what Jeremiah talks about. Jeremiah clearly talks about content of the covenants.
The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, but rather in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey His Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as being works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. The fruits of the Spirit are the character traits of God, and the Bible consistently describes the character of God's Law in the same terms as it describes the character of God, so it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits. For example, God's Law is righteous because it instructs us how to act in accordance with His righteous, and you did not interact with my argument for why these instructions are eternally valid.
The Spirit doesn't send us to follow after the law. Other wise Gal 5:18 is false. Do you believe 2 Tim 3:16? If so doesn't that make Gal 5:18 true inspiration of God? It's contained in what we call Scripture. You do quote the NT as truth.

What you're really saying is those who don't submit to the covenant given to Israel alone aren't submitting to God's will. You refuse to accept the fact we Christians have a completely new and different covenant. In doing so you accuse others of sin. To violate a covenant one must be obligated to it. Since the Christian has a different covenant than was given to Israel we can't be accused of sin for not keeping that covenant. Jesus isn't the way to participate in the covenant given to Israel in the desert after departure from Egypt. Besides that the mentioned covenant was given for a limited time Gal 3:19 and backed up with the Gospels.

Rom 8 doesn't make a case for people who refuse to obey the law. It talks about living in the flesh opposed to living in the Spirit. That Spirit isn't the spirit of the law nor the spirit of prophecy.

Where does the law forbid the striking of another also known as fighting.

When it comes to the law and God's character as in not doing evil, you include keeping the 7th day sabbath in that. Physical rest isn't needed by God and isn't part of His character. Jesus said God the Father still works. This in no way interferes with Gen 2. The 7th day sabbath is a type of rest symbolizing the eternal rest of God which only comes through Jesus opposed to works of the law. There's no fear by resting in Jesus. There's plenty fear generated by the law for not being flawless. We're only complete (perfect) in Jesus Christ. Mat 7, 11 and Heb 4.
Again, the problem in Galatians is with works of the law, not with works of the Law. Paul was a servant of God, not his enemy.
You need to seriously reconsider the above statement.
I spoke about obedience to God is about expressing our love for Him and said nothing remotely close to it being about legally earning our salvation.
For me this is double speak because you claim keeping the law is required. That's being legal. When it comes to being "legal" I refer you to 1 Jn 3:23 which doesn't mention the famous 10. Jesus nowhere taught we have to obey the famous 10 for salvation. Please go ahead and talk about Mat 19 or its other similar accounts found in Mark and Luke. When you do be sure to consider the full context and complete account of the incident.
Sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law, so requiring us to refrain from sin is requiring us to live in obedience to God's Law.
No. Read the verse you talk about and notice a small four letter word "also." That little word changes your idea completely. See Rom 5:13 and Gal 3:19.
Again, everything in Romans 6 is speaking in favor of obedience to God and against disobedience to him. For example, in Romans 6:15, being under grace does mean that we are permitted to sin. In 6:16, we are to present ourselves to God as slaves of obedience, which leads to righteousness, not as slaves to sin, which leads to death. In 6:17, we are once slaves of sin, but have become obedient from the heart. In 6:18, we have been set free from sin and become slaves of righteousness. In 6:19, we are to no longer present ourselves as slaves to impurity and Lawlessness leading to more Lawlessness, but as slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification. I was not speaking specifically about the 4th Commandment, though it is straightforwardly true that we are Lawless to the degree that we refuse to submit to God's Law.
You need to seriously consider what Rom 6 actually says.
When discussing how Galatians 5 should be interpreted, it is important to be able to explain how your interpretation makes sense, and interpretations that make sense should be preferred over those that do not. While I agree that Paul said in Galatians 5 is consistent with the Gospels, there is nothing about your interpretation of what he said that is consistent with the Gospels. There is nothing about hearing and following Christ's voice than involves refusing to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to follow by word and by example.
I presented Gal 5 without commentary purposely. It speaks for itself. You want to say it doesn't mean what it says.
 
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Soyeong

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My guess is this sentence from my post didn't register with you for some reason.

"What you do is sub in "God's Law" for the famous 10."

There's nothing I posted to indicate I don't believe the famous 10 aren't part of God's law. The deal for me what is objected to is the 4th commandment of the famous 10. It isn't the complete law. So the reality is the focus is the famous 10. The famous 10 are the covenant as Moses said - Deut 4:13.

I do not sub God's Law is for the Ten Commandments, but rather God's Law refers to the laws that he has given, which include, but are not limited to the Ten Commandments. You said yes to God's Law, but no to being obligated to obey the Ten Commandments, which indicates to me that you think that they are not part of God's Law. I think that followers of God should follow all of God's laws, not just the Ten Commandments or just the 4th.

Covenant or other requirements? If the covenant included more than the famous 10 why aren't you also objecting to others trimming their beard, not wearing tzitzit on their garments among many other requirements of the law?

The word used does not refer to trimming one's beard, but yes, followers of God should follow what He has commanded. However, if someone does not even agree that followers of God should follow His Ten Commandments, then there isn't much of a point in spending time trying to convince them that followers of God should follow God's other commandments.

I think you throw in the part about their cold feet. I don't see it in Scripture.

In Exodus 20:19, they didn't want God to speak to them, but rather they wanted God to speak to Moses as a mediator and for them to list to Moses instead, so they reneged on that they had initially agreed upon.

It's patently untrue that something in common makes things the same. For instance paint can contain different pigments of color and even texture, but is still paint: just not the same paint. The covenants are the same way. Jeremiah won't allow the same covenant law to be placed on our heart. The word Jeremiah uses is new meaning never before. Verse 33 backs this claim up. Movement isn't what Jeremiah talks about. Jeremiah clearly talks about content of the covenants.

I didn't claim that having something in common makes things the same. Rather, both covenant involve following God's Law. They are both made with the same God with the same ways and therefore the same instructions for how to walk in His ways. If instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness or other character traits changed when the New Covenant was made, then God's character traits would not be eternal. So a covenant made with a different set of laws could only be made with a different god with a different nature and different character traits. Again, Jeremiah describes the differences as being in regard to having a superior mediator and being based on better promises, but it doesn't say anything about better laws, but rather it still involves following God's Law.

The Spirit doesn't send us to follow after the law. Other wise Gal 5:18 is false. Do you believe 2 Tim 3:16? If so doesn't that make Gal 5:18 true inspiration of God? It's contained in what we call Scripture. You do quote the NT as truth.

The Spirit can lead us to obey God's Law in Ezekiel 36:26-27, Romans 8:4-7, and Galatians 5:19-22 and Galatians 5:18 can still be inspired by God, while your interpretation of Galatians 5:18 is false. The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father, so it wouldn't make any sense to interpret 5:18 as referring to God's Law.

In 2 Timothy 3:15-17, Paul referred to what Timothy had available to him since childhood, which could only be referring to OT Scripture because the books of the NT hadn't yet been written at that time. Furthermore, Paul specifically referred to what was spoken by God, which would primarily be referring to the Mosaic Law as being profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness, and equipping us to do every good work.

What you're really saying is those who don't submit to the covenant given to Israel alone aren't submitting to God's will. You refuse to accept the fact we Christians have a completely new and different covenant. In doing so you accuse others of sin. To violate a covenant one must be obligated to it. Since the Christian has a different covenant than was given to Israel we can't be accused of sin for not keeping that covenant. Jesus isn't the way to participate in the covenant given to Israel in the desert after departure from Egypt. Besides that the mentioned covenant was given for a limited time Gal 3:19 and backed up with the Gospels.

I have stated that we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, so I have been speaking about how we should act under the New Covenant. Even if God had never made any covenants with man, then we should still seek to follow God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and how to avoid sin. The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is revealed through God's Law. Gentiles are either under God's Law and are obligated to refrain from sin and are not under God's Law, have no obligation to refrain from sin, and have never needed Jesus to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.

However, God is God, so all Gentiles are under God's Law and are obligated to obey it and to refrain from sin regardless of whether or not they are in a covenant relationship with Him. For example, God judged the world the the Flood for their sins, God will judge the world in Revelation, God threatened to judge Nineveh, and God judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their Lawless deeds (2 Peter 2:6-8).

Rom 8 doesn't make a case for people who refuse to obey the law. It talks about living in the flesh opposed to living in the Spirit. That Spirit isn't the spirit of the law nor the spirit of prophecy.

In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the flesh are those who refuse to submit to God's Law, which is opposed to those who walk in the Spirit.

Where does the law forbid the striking of another also known as fighting.

In Leviticus 19:17-18, we are told not to hate our brother in our heat, not to take vengeance, or to bear a grudge against our neighbor, but rather we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.

When it comes to the law and God's character as in not doing evil, you include keeping the 7th day sabbath in that. Physical rest isn't needed by God and isn't part of His character. Jesus said God the Father still works. This in no way interferes with Gen 2. The 7th day sabbath is a type of rest symbolizing the eternal rest of God which only comes through Jesus opposed to works of the law. There's no fear by resting in Jesus. There's plenty fear generated by the law for not being flawless. We're only complete (perfect) in Jesus Christ. Mat 7, 11 and Heb 4.

In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which straightforwardly includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3), so keeping the Sabbath holy is about acting in accordance with the holy character of our God. In Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19, God's Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, so the rest for our souls comes from having faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, not from taking a break from following His guidance. Thinking that obeying God's Law is about the need to be flawless robs our souls of the peace that the Law was intended to give.

If we correctly understand a spiritual principle, then it will lead us to physically take actions that are examples of that principle. For example, if someone thought that they understood the principle of love, so they didn't need to physically obey God's command to help the poor, then they would not be correctly understanding that principle. So the spiritual principles behind God's laws always added depth to them and never leads us to disobey them, which means that correctly understanding the spiritual principle of the Sabbath should lead us to keep the Sabbath holy.

You need to seriously reconsider the above statement.

Paul said that our faith does not abolish God's Law, but rather our upholds it (Romans 3:31), so your faith should also uphold God's Law and you should not interpret Paul as seeking to do the opposite.

For me this is double speak because you claim keeping the law is required. That's being legal.

God had many purposes for giving His Law, but providing the means of becoming saved was never one of them, so saying that followers of God are required to follow what He has commanded is not at all the same as saying that followers of God are required to follow what He has commanded in order to become saved. In Romans 3:21-22, the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the way to become righteous. Once we agree that the Law was not given for that purpose, the issue becomes what then is the correct purpose of obeying God's Law?

When it comes to being "legal" I refer you to 1 Jn 3:23 which doesn't mention the famous 10. Jesus nowhere taught we have to obey the famous 10 for salvation.

Jesus expressed his love through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is how we are to love as he loved. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if you believe in the name of Jesus Christ, then that should cause you to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's Law (Acts 21:20).

Please go ahead and talk about Mat 19 or its other similar accounts found in Mark and Luke. When you do be sure to consider the full context and complete account of the incident.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to it should always be through of as an act of faith. For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into life, then obey the commandments, so either faith was implied, or Jesus was speaking about earning our salvation.

No. Read the verse you talk about and notice a small four letter word "also." That little word changes your idea completely. See Rom 5:13 and Gal 3:19.

In 1 John 3:4, it says that practicing sin is also practicing lawlessness and that sin is lawlessness, so I don't see why you think that the word "also" changes to meaning to sin being something other than lawlessness. In Romans 3:20, the Law was given to make us conscious of what sin is, in Romans 7:7, Paul said that we wouldn't even know what sin was if it weren't for the Law, and when Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, the Law was how his audience knew what sin is.

You need to seriously consider what Rom 6 actually says.

I've gone through most of Romans 6 and explained to you how it is all in favor of obedience to God's Law and against sin, so you need to seriously consider what Romans 6 actually says.

I presented Gal 5 without commentary purposely. It speaks for itself. You want to say it doesn't mean what it says.

Every form of communication requires interpretation, so there is nothing in the Bible that speaks for itself. Multiple people can read the same verse and came away with different understandings of what it is saying Galatians 5 speaks for itself is insufficient especially when I've explained why your interpretation doesn't make any sense. So if you disagree, then please explain how your interpretation makes sense and why my objections are wrong.
 
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ace of hearts

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I do not sub God's Law is for the Ten Commandments, but rather God's Law refers to the laws that he has given, which include, but are not limited to the Ten Commandments. You said yes to God's Law, but no to being obligated to obey the Ten Commandments, which indicates to me that you think that they are not part of God's Law. I think that followers of God should follow all of God's laws, not just the Ten Commandments or just the 4th.
I've been alive for some time. When nitty comes to gritty your reference is the famous 10 not the complete law of God. Your reference is always to the law that was added. Then you try your best to claim the famous 10 always were against Scripture. You can't have it both ways. There's a reason you use God's law and not the famous 10. It's pure deception. Your issue is the 4th commandment.
 
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ace of hearts

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The word used does not refer to trimming one's beard, but yes, followers of God should follow what He has commanded. However, if someone does not even agree that followers of God should follow His Ten Commandments, then there isn't much of a point in spending time trying to convince them that followers of God should follow God's other commandments.

Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Say anything you want. If you mar the corners of your beard you have trimmed it.
 
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Soyeong

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I've been alive for some time. When nitty comes to gritty your reference is the famous 10 not the complete law of God. Your reference is always to the law that was added. Then you try your best to claim the famous always were against Scripture. You can't have it both ways. There's a reason you use God's law and not the famous 10. It's pure deception. Your issue is the 4th commandment.

In Deuteronomy 5:32-33, God told Moses everything to write down without departing from it either to the right or to the left, so all of the Mosaic Law is God's Law, which includes a lot more than just the Ten Commandments. The reason I usually refer to the Mosaic Law or to God's Law rather than just the Ten Commandments is straightforward because I am usually speaking about more than just the Ten Commandments. I have never even remotely suggested that the Ten Commandments are against Scripture. Likewise, it is you who is focusing on the 4th commandment, so that is your issue, and you are projecting that onto me.

Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Say anything you want. If you mar the corners of your beard you have trimmed it.

The word used for "mar" means "to blemish, destroy, devaste, disfigure, ruin, ravage, spoil, or waste", none of which are terms that I would use to describe someone trimming their beard. The action being described is more akin to starting to a neatly trimmed hedge and hacking away at it haphazardly with a chainsaw than with starting with an overgrown hedge and making the sides nice and even.
 
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ace of hearts

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In Deuteronomy 5:32-33, God told Moses everything to write down without departing from it either to the right or to the left, so all of the Mosaic Law is God's Law, which includes a lot more than just the Ten Commandments. The reason I usually refer to the Mosaic Law or to God's Law rather than just the Ten Commandments is straightforward because I am usually speaking about more than just the Ten Commandments. I have never even remotely suggested that the Ten Commandments are against Scripture. Likewise, it is you who is focusing on the 4th commandment, so that is your issue, and you are projecting that onto me.



The word used for "mar" means "to blemish, destroy, devaste, disfigure, ruin, ravage, spoil, or waste", none of which are terms that I would use to describe someone trimming their beard. The action being described is more akin to starting to a neatly trimmed hedge and hacking away at it haphazardly with a chainsaw than with starting with an overgrown hedge and making the sides nice and even.
Your only valid issue is the 4th commandment. You don't keep the rest of the law either. You've really got no valid point.
 
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BobRyan

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There seems to be a holy war about what the Christian is obligated to preform after being born again. I'd like to see both sides of this war supported with Scripture.

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
 
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BobRyan

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There is a forum for Sabbath and Law debate? I seriously think there is too many forums on this site.

The Christian is obligated to obey the moral law, summarized under the two great commandments, and the positive laws of the New Testament.

the commandments where "the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 which includes the ten commands as we can see in Matthew 19 and Romans 13 and James 2.

Matt 22 Jesus said we are to "love God with all our heart" Deut 6:5 and "love our neighbor as ourself" Lev 19:18 and all the Ten Commandments as we see in Matthew 19. For the Ten Commandments are the "Word of God" according to Christ in Mark 7:6-13.
 
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ace of hearts

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"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
My preferred version says -

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

What are the commandments of God according to the same John?

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
 
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ace of hearts

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the commandments where "the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 which includes the ten commands as we can see in Matthew 19 and Romans 13 and James 2.

Matt 22 Jesus said we are to "love God with all our heart" Deut 6:5 and "love our neighbor as ourself" Lev 19:18 and all the Ten Commandments as we see in Matthew 19. For the Ten Commandments are the "Word of God" according to Christ in Mark 7:6-13.
More filler. Why did the man leave sad? Didn't Jesus really enforce Ps 14:3?

Why do you think condemnation will make followers?
 
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Jonaitis

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For the Ten Commandments are the "Word of God" according to Christ in Mark 7:6-13.

I do agree, BobRyan, that the Ten Commandments are still enforced...

But, they are fulfilled by the law of love, understood in the references you made.
 
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BobRyan

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There is a forum for Sabbath and Law debate? I seriously think there is too many forums on this site.

The Christian is obligated to obey the moral law, summarized under the two great commandments, and the positive laws of the New Testament.

the commandments where "the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 which includes the ten commands as we can see in Matthew 19 and Romans 13 and James 2.

Matt 22 Jesus said we are to "love God with all our heart" Deut 6:5 and "love our neighbor as ourself" Lev 19:18 and all the Ten Commandments as we see in Matthew 19. For the Ten Commandments are the "Word of God" according to Christ in Mark 7:6-13.

Notice in Matthew 19 Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones?" -- then He gives almost the same list we find in Rom 13

My preferred version says -
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Yes I like that version a lot.

What are the commandments of God

The Holy Spirit says they are the ones where "the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

He lists some of them in Romans 13 --

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this,
You shall not commit adultery, (Ex 20)
You shall not murder, (Ex 20)
You shall not steal, (Ex 20)
You shall not covet,” (Ex 20)
and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Lev 19:18)

The Holy Spirit is saying that to break anyone of those commandments is not to fulfill "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 as commanded by Moses.

"This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3 where in fact the "fifth commandment is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:2

of course none of that says "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 and none of it says "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 (Matt 22) -- but we know that is still included.
 
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BobRyan

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So... I battled with this for quite a while. Reading Galatians helped me to calm down about this, and realize that obeying the New Testament is all that I was required to do.

And did you notice that the NT kept quoting the OT LAWS?
 
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There is a forum for Sabbath and Law debate? I seriously think there is too many forums on this site.

The Christian is obligated to obey the moral law, summarized under the two great commandments, and the positive laws of the New Testament.

I find it interesting that both the Sabbath keeping Christians and the Sunday keeping Christian Bible scholars agree on a few basics. Such as that God's TEN Commandments are included in the LAW of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and that they applied to all mankind in Eden.

========================

Westminster Confession of Faith

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God
I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

==================================== all TEN


The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Section 19

19. The Law of God
  1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

  2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

  3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.


  4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.


  5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.


  6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.


  7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.
=================================


Notice the "details" in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

1. TEN Commandments included in the LAW of God given to mankind in Eden.
2. SAME law given at Sinai as the MORAL Law of God.
3. That law binds all mankind after the cross and before it.
4. It is perfectly consistent with grace and therefore the Gospel
5. Laws OTHER than the TEN commandments were given to Israel and those other laws included the ceremonial laws - which are no longer in place after the cross.

The Westminster Confession of Faith - section 19 makes the SAME 5 points.

====================
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

===================



They all confess that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments were applicable to all mankind in Eden.
D.L. Moody is very explicit on the Sabbath Commandment in Eden.

==================== D.L. Moody on the Sabbath Commandment

The Fourth Commandment

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.



THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.
from: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody
 
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