What is the obligation of the Christian?

[Dkh587]

There is a forum for Sabbath and Law debate? I seriously think there is too many forums on this site.

The Christian is obligated to obey the moral law, summarized under the two great commandments, and the positive laws of the New Testament.

There is no such thing as the “moral law” in the Scriptures.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There is no such thing as the “moral law”.

Oh , yes there is, "on this forum",
even if not in God's Word..... sad but true.

 

[Dkh587]

Oh , yes there is, "on this forum",
even if not in God's Word..... sad but true.

True. I edited my original post. We usually hear that phrase because someone is convinced that we(people saved by faith in Messiah) don’t need to obey the law of God.

 

[Shimshon]

It's debated here what "the Law of the Spirit" actually is. Would you please explain what you think it is?

I have, in depth. Just follow the links in my post.

 

[Jonaitis]

What are positive laws? What about the negative laws?

A moral law is an absolute moral, naturally understood (murder, adultery, theft).

A positive law is an added law by God to an individual's obligations that isn't naturally understood (Lord's Supper, Baptism, Circumcision, Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Sacrifice Animals).

 

[Jonaitis]

There is no such thing as the “moral law” in the Scriptures.

This statement makes no sense.

 

[ace of hearts]

I have, in depth. Just follow the links in my post.

I read most of the first page of your thread. I didn't see anything to grab my attention about the "Law of the Spirit." The word "torah" has little to no meaning if any for most Christians. The only place I find this phrase is from the partial phrase "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" found in Rom 8:2. Are you intimating "Law of the Spirit" and "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" are the same thing? What I did pick up from your thread is promotion of the law. Do you think Christians are obligated to the law in whole or part? If you answer yes, please explain.

Shimshon I kinda like you, but I found it very wise for me to shy away from MJ people. They didn't have a positive effect on a church I attended for several years. Their only goal was to draw away people after themselves.

 

[ace of hearts]

Not....

As written

"born again" by the Will of Yahweh, NOT of man, nor of the flesh...

"circumcised heart" not by hands, not by man,

for example:
Circumcision of the Heart - The Secret to Living Set Apart
"Circumcision of the Heart – The Secret to Living Set Apart

Due to centuries of man-made doctrine and church’s propensity for hyper-spiritualization, the definition of a “circumcised heart” has lost much of it’s meaning. Because of this error, our perception is so skewed that there are those who believe they are walking with a circumcised heart when they are actually living according to their own rules and standards. Even the most “die-hard” christian will believe this fallacy. There are many who read their Bibles every day, go to church on Sunday, never cuss, never drink, stay away from rated “R” movies, fast, pray and pursue Jesus in every way they know how, but according to the Word, their hearts are still not circumcised. If these people aren’t living holy (“set apart”) lives for YHWH, what hope do the rest of us have?



Well, there is hope. It is possible to actually walk in a holy (“set apart”) manner before your Creator with a real circumcised heart. How is this done?

The first step is to get back to a biblical definition and understanding of a circumcised heart. Don’t worry, it’s not a complex topic, nor is it a “hyper-spiritual” one… it’s actually quite practical."

Why do you need a link to an off site page to make your point? I really don't want to debate off site pages.

 

[Jonaitis]

I think this thread is within the pale of the Sabbath and Law forum. I do think it would fit in a couple other sections of CF.

Still, this site has too many forums. General Theology is good enough imo.

 

[ace of hearts]

Still, this site has too many forums. General Theology is good enough imo.

Not when the real purpose is making money.

 

[Jonaitis]

Not when the real purpose is making money.

Christianchat, not sure if you have heard of it, seems very stable as a site. They don't micromanage, they keep their forums pretty simple, and they have more people join than this site regularly.

 

[Shimshon]

I read most of the first page of your thread. I didn't see anything to grab my attention about the "Law of the Spirit."

You would have had to actually read past the first post to see the break down of each section of scripture I was speaking about. And read past the troll who was, strangely a lot like you, getting hung up on the word Torah.

The word "torah" has little to no meaning if any for most Christians.

In your opinion, but as you seem to well know, more than a small amount of Christians are seeking the Jewish roots of their faith. I used the term I am most comfortable with and raised with. I used both Law and Torah in that thread, as well as Jesus and Yeshua. It's not a big deal to me and it shouldn't be to others. But, I sense your trying to imply that Jewish things have little to no meaning in your understanding of Christianity? That would truly be sad if you think that.

What I did pick up from your thread is promotion of the law. Do you think Christians are obligated to the law in whole or part?

Now this response interests me greatly. Can you please show me where you get that opinion from what I posted?

I found it very wise for me to shy away from MJ people. They didn't have a positive effect on a church I attended for several years. Their only goal was to draw away people after themselves.

I am sorry you had that negative experience. One thing to note though is Messianic Judaism as a whole does not operate in a 'missionary' position. Meaning, we don't go into other places of worship and try to convert or hijack members. We have a huge enough task managing all the Christians who are interested in Jewish worship and history, as it relates to Jesus. Yes, there are Messianic Jews who go to Church, I know, I've attended many, usually not for long. But it was because I couldn't find a Messianic synagogue near me, and the active 'Messianic' congregations are usually all one law wackadoodles. I've moved a lot in my time. Finding an authentic shul is hard, one has to be near a major city. There's no place like home (NYC). In fact I came to faith as a Jew when Hebrew Christian was the only term used for us.

See, It sounds to me more like you experienced some Hebrew Roots Christians, One-Law Messianics. I've not seen a positive effect on any individual when they start believing the dogma of Torah observance as a means of showing God love. It's a twisted doctrine with a prideful boastful spirit. Legalism comes in many many shades, and surfaces in all religions.

I've spend most my time on this forum defending against such things. So for you to think that I promote the obligation of the law given Moses upon Christians from a simple cursory reading of my first post makes me chuckle. And also shows me you're not reading. I get it, you are weary. But I think you need to pay more attention.

Do you find it promotion of the law to speak of it as Paul does in Romans 7:7-12? Do you believe there is a 'royal law found in scripture' like mentioned in James 2:8?

I do not speak of obligating believers to the whole law, the law given Moses, our forefathers and our ancestors. But I do know the place, the glory, and the purpose of the Torah.

 

[ace of hearts]

You would have had to actually read past the first post to see the break down of each section of scripture I was speaking about. And read past the troll who was, strangely a lot like you, getting hung up on the word Torah.

Sorry but using the word "torah" is the beginning of leading to the law. It's also disrespectful of the common language used here in this section of the forum. I understand why you're kinda not welcome in the MJ section of this forum. It's nothing but nasty there to everyone who doesn't believe like they do. Same for another section here at CF. So one of the problem you face here is what other MJ people have done.

In your opinion, but as you seem to well know, more than a small amount of Christians are seeking the Jewish roots of their faith. I used the term I am most comfortable with and raised with. I used both Law and Torah in that thread, as well as Jesus and Yeshua. It's not a big deal to me and it shouldn't be to others. But, I sense your trying to imply that Jewish things have little to no meaning in your understanding of Christianity? That would truly be sad if you think that.

Yes and I protest very strongly Jewish invasion of Christianity. You can see the effects of it from media preachers. Because of it's total effect on the bulk of religious people I must reject it as a good thing.

Now this response interests me greatly. Can you please show me where you get that opinion from what I posted?

Perhaps a problem for me is being hypersensitive to the issue because of the way the "law keepers" in general act here. MJ promote the law at least in general and some are like "law keepers" refusing to open the whole package until an individual becomes somewhat trapped into their fellowship.

I am sorry you had that negative experience. One thing to note though is Messianic Judaism as a whole does not operate in a 'missionary' position. Meaning, we don't go into other places of worship and try to convert or hijack members. We have a huge enough task managing all the Christians who are interested in Jewish worship and history, as it relates to Jesus. Yes, there are Messianic Jews who go to Church, I know, I've attended many, usually not for long. But it was because I couldn't find a Messianic synagogue near me, and the active 'Messianic' congregations are usually all one law wackadoodles. I've moved a lot in my time. Finding an authentic shul is hard, one has to be near a major city. There's no place like home (NYC). In fact I came to faith as a Jew when Hebrew Christian was the only term used for us.

I don't have a problem with a Christian Jew attending regular non synagogue Sunday meeting churches. In fact one of the pastors in youth was a Jew. My family would take bacon to his family. His wife was a gentile. I do have a problem with an MJ doing so. Hope you see my distinction.

See, It sounds to me more like you experienced some Hebrew Roots Christians, One-Law Messianics. I've not seen a positive effect on any individual when they start believing the dogma of Torah observance as a means of showing God love. It's a twisted doctrine with a prideful boastful spirit. Legalism comes in many many shades, and surfaces in all religions.

People in general don't understand this distinction. And those groups you talk about usually don't communicate that up front. So yes I understand your predicament.

I've spend most my time on this forum defending against such things. So for you to think that I promote the obligation of the law given Moses upon Christians from a simple cursory reading of my first post makes me chuckle. And also shows me you're not reading. I get it, you are weary. But I think you need to pay more attention.

Perhaps

Do you find it promotion of the law to speak of it as Paul does in Romans 7:7-12? Do you believe there is a 'royal law found in scripture' like mentioned in James 2:8?

No

I do not speak of obligating believers to the whole law, the law given Moses, our forefathers and our ancestors. But I do know the place, the glory, and the purpose of the Torah.

It has no practical place in Christianity as Paul mentions in Rom 7:6 or say Galatians, especially 4 and 5.

 

[Soyeong]

There seems to be a holy war about what the Christian is obligated to preform after being born again. I'd like to see both sides of this war supported with Scripture.

Being born again is about dying to living in disobedience to God and rising again to newness of life in obedience to His Law.

 

[Soyeong]

There is a forum for Sabbath and Law debate? I seriously think there is too many forums on this site.

The Christian is obligated to obey the moral law, summarized under the two great commandments, and the positive laws of the New Testament.

All of the 613 laws in the OT and 1,050 laws in the NT are summarized by the two greatest commandments, which is why they are the greatest and why all of the other laws hang on them. The category of moral law implies that laws that are not in that category are in category that are moral to disobey, but there are no such examples of this in the Bible. Rather, it is always sinful and immoral to disobey any of God's laws. Negative commandments should also be understood as commandments to do the reverse, such as with the command not to steal being understood as the command to be generous. However, I see nothing in the Bible that says that Christians are not obligated to obey negative laws.

 

[Soyeong]

It's debated here what "the Law of the Spirit" actually is. Would you please explain what you think it is?

Either the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses, or they are in disagreement about which laws we should follow.

 

[ace of hearts]

Being born again is about dying to living in disobedience to God and rising again to newness of life in obedience to His Law.

Being born again causes an individual to be free from the law, not still bound by it. You can't show from the NT any passage requiring the keeping of the law for the Christian. Here's what Galatians has to say on the issue -

5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Really don't need to post more, but chapters 3 and 4 are also very negative on the law.

 

[ace of hearts]

All of the 613 laws in the OT and 1,050 laws in the NT are summarized by the two greatest commandments, which is why they are the greatest and why all of the other laws hang on them. The category of moral law implies that laws that are not in that category are in category that are moral to disobey, but there are no such examples of this in the Bible. Rather, it is always sinful and immoral to disobey any of God's laws. Negative commandments should also be understood as commandments to do the reverse, such as with the command not to steal being understood as the command to be generous. However, I see nothing in the Bible that says that Christians are not obligated to obey negative laws.

So you want to complicate the issue even more with a host of commands. Many of your 1050 commands are repeaters.

 

[ace of hearts]

Either the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses, or they are in disagreement about which laws we should follow.

No - Jere 31:31-33 which you don't believe. Neither do you accept LK 22:20 as truth.

 

[Soyeong]

No - Jere 31:31-33 which you don't believe. Neither do you accept LK 22:20 as truth.

In Jeremiah 31:31-33, the New Covenant still involves following God's Law, so I am in complete agreement that that and Luke 22:20 and neither of those verses contradict what I said. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all either leading us in the same direction, or they are in disagreement about which direction we should be led. While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same ways and therefore the same instructions for how to walk in His ways. For example, if the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness changed when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but it is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with His righteousness will always be eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under. So while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, God's eternal righteousness and righteous laws did not become obsolete along with it.

So you want to complicate the issue even more with a host of commands. Many of your 1050 commands are repeaters.

The 1,050 is just a list I've seen. The number of commands in the Bible is somewhat variable depending upon the counter and you could even question whether there are 613 commandments in the OT if you wanted to, though they are in the general ballpark. However, my point was not about the exact number of commandments in the Bible, but about the fact that however many there are, they all make up God's instructions for how He wants us to love Him and our neighbor.

Being born again causes an individual to be free from the law, not still bound by it. You can't show from the NT any passage requiring the keeping of the law for the Christian.

Sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law, and in Romans 6:1-13, we are no longer to continue in sin now that we have died to sin. Being baptized into Christ is being baptized into his death, so that when Christ was raised from the dead we too might in newness of life. It says that our old self has been crucified with him so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin, not so that we would would be free to sin. We have been set free from sin so that we can be free to obey the Law. We are no longer to present ourselves as instruments of unrighteousness is disobedience to the Law, but as instruments of righteousness in obedience to it. Everything in Romans 6 is speaking in favor of obeying God's Law and against disobeying it. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to free us from the Law, but the redeem us from all Lawlessness. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do the things that God revealed in His Law to be sin.

Here's what Galatians has to say on the issue -

5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Really don't need to post more, but chapters 3 and 4 are also very negative on the law.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His Law, and even Christ began his ministry with that message, so it would make no sense to interpret Galatians 5 as Paul warning us against doing that and saying that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ. Paul was a servant of God, not His enemy, who said that our faith does not abolish God's Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying God. The issue that Paul was speaking against Galatians was with obeying works of the law, not against God's Law.