What is the Church's position on Creation/Evolution

[gzt]

Forgive me, I dont' ever really read anybody else's posts. But my point is that you push too hard on this and I hope to remind you again.

 

[peregrinus2017]

I think there is truth to what Saint Silouan is saying - the problem is we aren't monks. We are armchair "theologians" (I think theologians would even be blasphemous to say in terms of what we are) who live in a world that isn't Orthodox - sometimes even very openly mirroring the society in which the Satan's Throne in Pergamum was erected. And considering that these questions are far more of a struggle to us, it seems to be the case that the Fathers haven't really helped us in understanding the question with great precision considering they express the Truth in a multitude of different ways.

I will say that it's definitely not true - at least in writing - to say that the Church Fathers never make mistakes. Saint Augustine and Saint Ambrose immediately come to mind as Church Fathers who made mistakes.

If Saint Augustine never made mistakes, he would have never had to write a Treatise on his retractions.

You could argue that Saint Augustine isn't a Church Father, but then you have the Fathers of the 5th Ecumenical Council who will all unanimously judge you for saying such a thing.

For myself, I have found that when I don't understand the answers, it's not usually the answers that are at fault, it's that I am asking the wrong question. Knowing and trusting in what God has done is far more important than understanding how God has done it, (or even thinking that we, His creatures can grasp the workings of our almighty uncreated God). With this particular topic, I take the word of the apostle Paul in Titus 3 very seriously. "But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless."

 

[ArmyMatt]

But perhaps it behooves you to admit that, gasp, perhaps my view is a legitimate Orthodox opinion. It seems many, including those you should listen to, hold it.

the ones we should listen to are the saints. they are the real theologians.

 

[gzt]

They say a lot of things.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Forgive me, I dont' ever really read anybody else's posts. But my point is that you push too hard on this and I hope to remind you again.

I am not the one who calls the pro-evolution crowd a fringe group or whatever. and usually I begin by saying no one has been excommunicated for believing in evolution but only explain why I don't.

I respond to you because you usually say something snarky towards us first, and then I will chime in.

 

[ArmyMatt]

They say a lot of things.

your point?

 

[Barney2.0]

It can only be proven to people who are already convinced of the idea of evolution and the infallibility of modern science. It cannot be proven to those who challenge the philosophy on which the modern idea is built. The defenders of evolution are always citing the infallible proofs of evolution, but when you nail the philosophical assumptions and the contradictions with established Orthodox theology, those defenders fall silent or fall back on mere denials; the "Vader Defense": "There IS no conflict"...

Evolution isn't true because there is no example of an organism changing into another organism, likewise the Earth is more then 6,000 years old because there has been record of life on Earth for billions of years.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Orthodox Church doesn't function like the Catholic Church. There is no one universal manual showing every single belief of Orthodoxy like the Roman catechism. You can't flip to page 901 and find "evolution." Evolution is a theory, pure and simple. Scientists have found bits of bones here and there. The Leakeys and Donald Johansen among others have found skeletons. There are a few hundred Australopithecine skeletons discovered. How do we know for sure they are related to human beings? Could they have been a mutation? Could they have been a slightly more sophisticated primate? Could Homo Erectus have been either mutation or a hominid similar to humanity but never related? Dating methods vary, opinions vary, none of this is hard science. It is rather scanty conjecture and in the mind of secularized atheists the ultimate puzzle they piece together hoping for a planet with no god, no destiny, no meaning, no hope, no theology, no morality, just an existence that only socialism can guide...

 

[TheLostCoin]

The Orthodox Church doesn't function like the Catholic Church. There is no one universal manual showing every single belief of Orthodoxy like the Roman catechism.

 

[prodromos]

Which page is evolution on?

 

[Platina]

Had St. Darwin put out his idea yet when St. Philaret wrote this?

 

[ArmyMatt]

that's one catechism of many.

 

[rusmeister]

Would you say that to my bishop? Or dare correct him?

Of course. If a bishop has definitively gone wrong, it behooves us, with the greatest respect, to say so. And you are saying what? That bishops should never, ever be corrected? That they are infallible?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Of course. If a bishop has definitively gone wrong, it behooves us, with the greatest respect, to say so. And you are saying what? That bishops should never, ever be corrected? That they are infallible?

technically, it should be a brother bishop or Synod who corrects a bishop with errors. it is not for the priests, deacons, or laity to correct a bishop aside from aligning with a correctly believing bishop or answering the erroneous bishop correctly when approached by said bishop or another.

 

[Platina]

Falling back on your bishop does nothing to solve a controversy or help anyone else come to a conclusion on the matter, considering that bishops disagree. Obviously everyone pointing to their own bishop is not an answer.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Falling back on your bishop does nothing to solve a controversy or help anyone else come to a conclusion on the matter, considering that bishops disagree. Obviously everyone pointing to their own bishop is not an answer.

we could just fall back on what the saints have already said, because they have clearly spoken on the issue

 

[gzt]

Falling back on your bishop does nothing to solve a controversy or help anyone else come to a conclusion on the matter, considering that bishops disagree. Obviously everyone pointing to their own bishop is not an answer.

I certainly agree, but we aren't going to solve the controversy as it's an open issue with legitimate disagreement. Referring people to a set of articles - which I do repeatedly - on both sides is helpful.

Hope that helps. Have a nice day.

 

[SingularityOne]

I certainly agree, but we aren't going to solve the controversy as it's an open issue with legitimate disagreement. Referring people to a set of articles - which I do repeatedly - on both sides is helpful.

Hope that helps. Have a nice day.

However, the consensus of the saints (which come together in the Holy Spirit) should be what one defaults to when talking about these disagreements. That is the foundation.

 

[gzt]

That's certainly one opinion, though I think it's premature to really call it a consensus.

 

[ArmyMatt]

can you name some saints who are for evolution?