What is salvation?

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hi, Miss Shelby! Excellent verse! I think that is identical to the passage Dave gave, from Romans 10---faith comes by hearing. What Gabe & Don seem to be saying, is that "faith comes from GOD"---thus my retort, "by grace have you been saved through grace"---'cause if saving-faith is bestowed by GOD, then it is not really FAITH it is a second dispensation of GRACE---"by grace through grace"; while, on the other hand, if faith comes from our HEARTS (as Paul proclaims in Rm 10:10), then it truly is "by grace through faith".

"FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION", btw, is interchangeable with "BELIEF", with "RECEIVING CHRIST", with "BORN-AGAIN", etc...

I don't disagree that we trust, hear, and believe. My point is that we wouldn't hear or trust wholly of our own accord. It is the Spirit that awakens us from our state of sleep and enables us to see the truth in that we need God. It is this awakening that causes us to seek after Him.


Am I right about what you believe, Gabe? That the Spirit only awakens whom God has chosen? Atonement is LIMITED in offering? He only calls/enables/saves SOME that He chose BEFOREHAND?

You are correct, sir.  I believe you are well aware of this, are you not?

 

[Ben johnson]

You are correct, sir. I believe you are well aware of this, are you not?

No two people, even in the same belief system, believe completely identical things. It is often useful to clearly state one's belief to avoid wrongful assumptions. Sometimes I ask so that I can correctly discuss, without offending someone if my memory isn't perfect.

And, in discussions, such statements can be a "launching point" for further and clear discussions...

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
No two people, even in the same belief system, believe completely identical things. It is often useful to clearly state one's belief to avoid wrongful assumptions. Sometimes I ask so that I can correctly discuss, without offending someone if my memory isn't perfect.

And, in discussions, such statements can be a "launching point" for further and clear discussions...

 

You know, you're starting to grow on me, Ben. 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
"That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your Salvation:  in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise." (Ephesians 1:12-13)

Michelle

Hey Michelle, "trusted" and "believed" are not the operative words here, "first" is.  However, "first" is not in relation to who acted first, us or Christ, rather Paul was referring to the believing Jews being before the Gentiles, whom have likewise become heirs to the praise of God's glory.

God bless

 

[Ben johnson]

You know, you're starting to grow on me, Ben.

Hopefully it's more like "brotherly love", and less like "mold on old bread...

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hopefully it's more like "brotherly love", and less like "mold on old bread...

A little of both .  LOL

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Reformationist

So, as I said, if this be true, then you also must believe the inverse, that is, there is a possibility that no one would have chosen Christ, right?

Ok, I see no harm in believing the inverse. There is a possibility that no one would have chosen Christ. But from the very moment that Christ made the claims, people believed. So the nanosecond before he said the words and they believed, it was possible. And my salvation was the same as theirs. I heard the words of Christ. I did not hear them directly from his lips, but I heard the preached, and it did not come back void.

Me knowing whether or not the two of you are compatible is not a parallel to your opinion.  You believe you chose Christ, and Heaven, over hell even before you knew anything about them, and I'm not talking about having heard the Gospel.  I heard the Gospel but, even after, knew nothing about Christ, certainly not enough to decide whether I could believe in it.

I knew enough. I heard of Jesus before, but knew nothing about his sacrifice on the cross, and what the truely meant. I knew nothing about my own damnation. But as soon as I heard, I believed. So once again, faith comes by hearing the words of Christ.

So it was a team effort between you and God?  Let me get this straight.  The way I understand what you are saying is that God, the being that created you, desired that you be saved.  But, He didn't create you saved, right?  You were born separated from Him.  You were His enemy the day you were born.  He knew that the Fall of mankind would happen yet He perpetuated the existance of mankind knowing that some would not "choose" Him and they would end up suffering eternal torment.  So, He created you, and though He is the Creator, and His Divine, Sovereign, Eternal, Immutable, Holy Plan is that you be saved, it was subject to whether or not you accepted?

As far as I can see, Yes. I would not state it the exact way that you have here, but I do agree that his plan for my salvation would be incomplete if I rejected Jesus as Lord.

By the way, my wife is at a job interview.  Pray for us that it turns out well.

How did it turn out ?

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Reformationist

I agree that God loves Christians, but where we seem to differ is that I don't believe love (that's biblical love, not the feeling of love) is given to all man, at least not in the form of salvitic grace.  And just for the record, I don't believe it has anything to do with what man does first.  I also am not familiar with where the Bible tells us that God asks for anything, much less our love.  We are commanded to keep God's commandments, which includes "love the Lord with all your heart and soul and mind.  Could you please share with me where you read that God "asks" us to love Him?

So, you do believe that until you "accepted," God's will could not be made manifest in your life?  What I'm asking is, if you believe it was God's Will that you be saved, and you had the capability to "deny" or "reject" God, then essentially, you had the ability to stop the Will of God.  Doesn't that sound like you're saying that your will for your life is more powerful than God's Will for your life?

Hmmm...do you think God is responding to your prayer?  You don't think that God's Plan was complete when it was sovereignly put into place?  For example, let's say it is God's Will that you learn compassion.  How would He bring this about?  I would think the best way to do it is put you in a position where you needed compassion, thereby teaching you how to give it.  His plan had included these measures from the get go.  Do you believe, in that case, if you instead prayed for the ability to evangelize God would instead give you your desire?  It really, really, seems like you keep implying that the Will of the Father is subject to your will.  Do you even see that coming across like that? 

That's exactly what it seems like you are saying.  You said God's "offer was always on the table."  His offer, however, did not make your salvation manifest, right?  It was not until you accepted that you were doing the tango, right?  According to you, your salvation was not made manifest until you accepted, right?

This whole paragraph is contradictory.  You say you had no faith until He saved you and there was no faith in you when you were born, but you have said that the reason you are saved is because you put you faith in Him.  Even here you say "God matures the faith we give Him."  I don't get it.  You just said we had no faith to give Him.  Where did the faith come from that you put in Him to be saved?

If you have no grace what was it that even enabled you to repent and believe in the first place?  Do you believe it is part of the makeup of fallen man to be able to commit the righteous action of putting faith (which you said isn't there until after we're saved) in Christ? 

Well, there's plenty of verses that show this.  The most apparent being the one I posted in post number 40:

Matthew 5:45
He makes His sun rise <B>on the evil and on the good</B>, and sends rain <B>on the just and on the unjust</B>.&nbsp;

Obviously God's salvitic grace is not bestowed upon those that He chooses to leave in their fallen state.&nbsp; It is His salvitic grace that enables man to become a believer.&nbsp; Even most of fallen man are not as bad as they could be.&nbsp; We're not all Jeffrey Dahlmers.&nbsp; It is God's grace that keeps man, saved and unsaved, from being as depraved as he possibly could be.

Again, "love" in the Bible is an action word.&nbsp; It is not a feeling.&nbsp; When the Bible says "God loves us" it means&nbsp;He does something&nbsp;for us, something we need.&nbsp; That thing we need is salvation.&nbsp; He does not extend that love to all men.&nbsp; The fact that you know God's love for you and can return that love by keeping His commandments is purely by His grace.&nbsp; Also,&nbsp;he who&nbsp;has not been forgiven&nbsp;can not love.&nbsp; Love is not in him.

On the contrary, that is exactly what I believe.&nbsp; I just believe that faith unto salvation is something that God gives us.&nbsp; As a matter of fact, you seem to believe that too.&nbsp; You have said that you "had no faith until He saved you" and "faith was not in us when we were born."

Yet you believe you put all your trust, faith, belief and effort into serving Him?&nbsp; Strange.&nbsp; Why, if you did not love Him before He saved you, did you strive to please Him by dedicating your life to Him?

We know of God's love because we are the recipient of God's love.&nbsp; And, we received it before we gave it back.

Dave,&nbsp;Dave, Dave.&nbsp; You still think that God's&nbsp;Will is so tenuous that the thing standing in the way is that&nbsp;someone doesn't know&nbsp;of His love?&nbsp; How did God ever accomplish anything&nbsp;in our lives before we "decided" to help

I will go back and edit this with a reply soon. Gotta go for now.

 

[reeann]

Wow, this thread totally baffled me.

God reveals Himself to people. I've heard the Bible stories many times and my need for a Savior. I never heard God until that day I went to a woman's Bible study and a man there was reading from Corinthians. I'm sure he wasn't happy to have to fill in for his "wife" at the ladies Bible study. But it was in that Bible Study that the power of God busted through the darkness of my existence and made Himself know to me. I KNEW at that moment God was real and He wanted me into His kingdom. I never had a problem thinking of myself as sinner. I was instantly in that moment delivered from some oppressions in my life. Others are still with me today.

Jesus saves us, because he paid the penalty of sin for all. God revealed Himself to me and by faith (yes mine is probably as small as a mustard seed), I know I was transformed in some way that I can't described to anyone.

The Bible teaches three parts to salvation:
1. Justification through Jesus (Freedom from the Penalty of Sin)
2. Sanctification through obedience and following Christ in His will, not sin free, but striving towards the example of Jesus (Freedom from the POWER of sin).
3. Glorification. The day of Christ's return, when all believers will have FREEDOM from the PRESENCE of sin.

 

[Julie]

HOW I KNOW I'M GOING TO HEAVEN(saved)


THE PROCLAMATION OF GOD'S WORD

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (I Jn. 5:13)

". . . . I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12)

Are you going to Heaven or Hell? Do you know the answer right now, or are you waiting to find out after you die? Unfortunately, most people do NOT know the answer and are waiting to see how things turn out. People are living as though the Bible had never been written. People are living their lives in uncertainty, not considering the fact that God has spoken very clearly about their eternal destiny. What about you? Are you going to ignore God's word, or are you willing to take a few moments to see for yourself that God says it IS possible to KNOW your eternal destiny?


THE POWER OF GOD'S PRESERVATION

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Pet. 1:5)

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)

I know that I'm going to Heaven because GOD is preserving me. I'm not preserving my own Salvation. I wasn't saved by my good works (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:5), so I do not STAY saved by my good works. I am KEPT by the POWER OF GOD, not by my own power! God is able to keep me from falling (Jude 24), because I'm HIS child and I'm in the palm of HIS hand (Jn. 10:28-29). Ephesians 4:30 says that I have been SEALED by the Holy Spirit of God until the day of redemption! I'm not worried about losing my Salvation. I KNOW I'm going to Heaven because I'm being preserved by God's power.


THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL SECURITY

"I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (Jn. 10:28)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (Jn. 3:16)

I know I'm going to Heaven because God has PROMISED eternal security to all who BELIEVE on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. To "believe" on Christ is to "receive" Christ, according to John 1:12. During the spring of 1979, I repented of my sins and received Jesus Christ as my Savior. I had been lost in my sins, condemned to Hell forever (Jn. 3:18, 36). Then a man told me how I could be saved from my sins and from Hell by RECEIVING the Lord Jesus Christ. I received Christ, believing that HE ALONE could save me. I trusted in Him totally, for I knew that He was my only hope. I called upon Him to save me and He did (Rom. 10:13, 9-10). He brought me into God's family as a "son of God" (Jn. 1:12; I Jn. 3:2-3). I was a child of the devil, a child of wrath (Jn. 8:44; Eph. 2:2-3), but now I'm eternally secure as a child of God.

If I sin as a child of God, then my Heavenly Father will rebuke and chasten me , just as any good father would (Rev. 3:10; Heb. 12:4-8), but He will not condemn me with the world (I Cor. 11:32). God has promised His children ETERNAL SECURITY.


THE POSSESSION GOD HAS GIVEN HIS SAINTS

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (Jn. 5:24)

"He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (I Jn. 5:12)

I know I'm going to Heaven because God has already given me ETERNAL LIFE . I'm not waiting to receive eternal life-I ALREADY HAVE it as a present possession. Read the above verses carefully and see for yourself that eternal life is IN Jesus Christ, and that you can receive eternal life RIGHT NOW by receiving Christ right now!

When I received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior, God placed His Eternal Spirit within me and gave me Eternal Life. As a child of God, I'm still waiting to see Jesus, to enter Heaven, and to receive my new glorified body, but I'm NOT waiting to be saved. My soul IS saved, and I know I'm going to Heaven because God has given me Eternal Life.


THE PERFECTION OF GOD'S SAINTS

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb. 10:14)

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." (Rom. 4:5-8)

Have you ever heard the expression "Nobody's perfect?" That isn't true. In God's eyes, the SOULS of all His saints ARE perfect, because they have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for Salvation. Jesus shed His sinless blood to pay for my sins. He OFFERED Himself as a PAYMENT for my sin. He paid my sin debt because I couldn't. By receiving Him as my Savior, I am also receiving the fact that He has PAID for my sins and that I can now REST in His finished work, because my sins are GONE! My soul (not my flesh) has been made PERFECT through the completed Blood Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ, and I KNOW I'm going to Heaven!

What about you? Why not forsake your own self-righteousness right now and receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior? Why live a life of uncertainty when you can KNOW your eternal destiny? Why not get it settled right now? Receive Christ today. Romans 10:9 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Why not call upon the Lord to save you right now? You've seen the promises of scripture. Are you willing to CLAIM those promises by receiving the Lord Jesus Christ today? Tomorrow may be too late.
&nbsp;

*copied

 

[Ben johnson]

But it was in that Bible Study that the power of God busted through the darkness of my existence and made Himself know to me. I KNEW at that moment God was real and He wanted me into His kingdom. I never had a problem thinking of myself as sinner. I was instantly in that moment delivered from some oppressions in my life. Others are still with me today.

That's awesome! Do you believe that once He made Himself known to you, that you were saved when you RECEIVED Him?

Hi, Julie! I would love to respond to a couple of points you made. If I do, will you read them? Can we have a calm and mature discourse (both of us calm, both of us mature)? If we disagree on something, can we respect each other's view?

 

[Jephunneh]

The Bible calls Salvation everlasting life and eternal life.

The Bible says that you can receive Christ by BELIEVING on His name (Jn. 1:12).
He paid for your sins, and by CLAIMING Him as your Savior--resting in His finished Blood Atonement for your sins--you can be saved!
Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Ephesians 2:8-9 says that you are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH, not by your works.
God is not wanting you to do good works to get to Heaven, for there is none that doeth good (Rom. 3:10). "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:23) You do not need God to judge your good deeds and your evil deeds; you need a SAVIOR to save you from your sins. Jesus Christ is the Savior. If you'll call upon Him for Salvation, trusting Him Alone to save you, He'll save you and give you eternal life. It's that simple. "For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Rom. 10:9) Romans 10:13 says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."