What is salvation?

[DaveKerwin]

I posted a responce, but its your choice if you want to no loger discuss this with me.

For the record, let me clarify what I said. If you are trying to show "that it is not man's choice to recieve salvation", then just say exactly that! I am trying to get to the point where you say what you believe instead of asking questions to get there. I said that in an attempt to cut out the middle man and get to the bottom line. The reason behind the "worthless" comment is related to this. It seems that regardless of what I type, it will just be turned on me to show your point futher. Lets remember we both go to the same souce for truth, yet we come to different conclusions. We are both imprefect interpreters of God's word.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
If you are trying to show "that it is not man's choice to recieve salvation", then just say exactly that!

Exactly that!

The reason behind the "worthless" comment is related to this. It seems that regardless of what I type, it will just be turned on me to show your point futher.

Not sure why you'd justify that comment but, okay, I apologize for making you think I ignore your comments in an effort to shove my view upon you.

Lets remember we both go to the same souce for truth, yet we come to different conclusions. We are both imprefect interpreters of God's word.

Hmmm...sound advice, for yourself as well as me.

I have not responded to your post because you just said all I do is ignore it and say the same things over and over again.  It's not a matter of not wanting to discuss this with you.  It's an issue of knowing that I'm not responding in the right way and until I can I'll refrain from responding to your comments because all we seem to be doing is arguing.  It's not about you.  It's my response that I'm trying to correct.

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

Gee Don, trying to reap hot coals on my head? sheesh ! j/k
I was not fishing for an apology, but thanks, though it was not needed.

If you want to continue, count me in. No one else seems to be posting. I won't be so arogant... .. . I mean I can try right ?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Gee Don, trying to reap hot coals on my head? sheesh ! j/k
I was not fishing for an apology, but thanks, though it was not needed.

I appreciate that but, believe me, it was definitely needed.  

If you want to continue, count me in. No one else seems to be posting. I won't be so arogant... .. . I mean I can try right ?

Sure bro.  Let's just look out for each other.  If you see me getting out of hand, just tell me and I'll take a break until I get in the right frame of mind.

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

agreed, keep me in line too.

Now, let me see if I understand you....

You believe that God saves the elect, at his own discretion. There is nothing inside man, in and of himself, to believe in Jesus. It is only through the drawing of God that one comes to faith.

Is that your position ?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
agreed, keep me in line too.

I'll try brother. 

Now, let me see if I understand you....

You believe that God saves the elect, at his own discretion.

Yes, as long as by this you mean God saves all the elect.  He does not pick and choose among them.

There is nothing inside man, in and of himself, to believe in Jesus. It is only through the drawing of God that one comes to faith.

I would say yes.  But, "the drawing of God" is a bit less emphasizing than I think does the position justice.  It is the forceful, sovereign dragging of a fallen creature to repentence.

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Reformationist


Yes, as long as by this you mean God saves all the elect.  He does not pick and choose among them.

I would say yes.  But, "the drawing of God" is a bit less emphasizing than I think does the position justice.  It is the forceful, sovereign dragging of a fallen creature to repentence.

God bless

(yes, I see the definition of elect to be all that God chooses)

So no fallen person comes to faith without God doing everything, man's decisions are excluded from the salvation process.

Is this how you see it ?

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Don! I think Dave did very well in this thread. I don't think he was "offended"---I think you stopped responding because you could not refute what he was saying.

We are saved by grace through faith---we (both "PE" and "RG" proponents) agree on that. The disagreement, is from WHERE that saving faith COMES. You say it is installed by God, on those whom He has chosen. Faith then becomes a second dispensation of grace. Thus Eph2:8 SHOULD read, "For by grace through grace have you been saved".

You reject mankind's sentience---you believe one who has NOT been saved is INCAPABLE of even CONSIDERING Christ's words ("Total Depravity")---this on Scriptures like, "While you were dead in your sins He made you alive in Him." (Eph2:5) But you refuse to consider that WE have any part in "us-being-alive-to-HIM-and-dead-to-sin". This in spite of verses like, "Even so, CONSIDER YOURSELVES dead to sin but alive to God in Jesus" (Rm6:11).

Dave has eloquently quoted from Romans 10---and I don't see how you can argue with that: "And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" Where is the predestination in that? "Faith comes from HEARING the Word of God---but if they do not HEAR then how can they BELIEVE?!" If they had been PREDESTINED to salvation, God would MAKE IT SO that they hear and SO that they believe! Would He not???

So God, your Creator, the Divine, Sovereign Ruler and King of all has a Divine plan for little ol' you and you have the power to reject His Divine, Sovereign plan. Hmmm...who is sovereign in your idea of God?

To allow us discretion in our salvation, is certainly within God's sovereign power. Yes He has a plan for us, "for welfare and not for calamity to give us a future and a hope" (Jer29:11). But that plan is not forced---"I have set before you life and death, prosperity and adversity, the blessing and the curse; so choose life in order that you may live, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him." Deut30:15-20 Which part of this do you reject?

"SO THEN as through one transgression condemnation came to PAS ANTHROPOS ALL-MEN-THE-WORLD,
EVEN SO through one act of righteousness there RESULTED JUSTIFICATION to PAS ANTHROPOS ALL-MEN-THE-WORLD!" Rom5:18

Justification CAME to ALL MEN, in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY ("so then, even so") as condemnation came to all men. But, only those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness, only THOSE will reign in life with Christ! Rom5:17

Which part of this do you reject? How do you justify your rejection with Scripture?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hi, Don! I think Dave did very well in this thread. I don't think he was "offended"---I think you stopped responding because you could not refute what he was saying.

Well, that's very "Ben Johnson" of you to say.  And, I'm sure that Dave appreciates your support.

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

uhhh... so should we kill this or what

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
uhhh... so should we kill this or what

Not at all.  I have just decided that I'm going to refrain from responding to certain people's ridiculously long winded posts.

You said, "So no fallen person comes to faith without God doing everything, man's decisions are excluded from the salvation process.  Is this how you see it ?"

My answer to this is that God does everything and no, man's decisions are not excluded from the salvation process.  I just believe man is saved in spite of the decisions he makes.

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Reformationist

You said, "So no fallen person comes to faith without God doing everything, man's decisions are excluded from the salvation process.  Is this how you see it ?"

My answer to this is that God does everything and no, man's decisions are not excluded from the salvation process.  I just believe man is saved in spite of the decisions he makes.

God bless

Saved despite the decisions he makes? What do you mean by that? In the mean time, lets look to see if decisions on man's part are involved here.

Lets analyze these verses - John 1 :10-12

"He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

And Colossians 2: 6
"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him"


Observations:
1. We have the right to become children of God, given we receive Jesus and believe in his name. (John verse)
2. We did receive Jesus as Lord, so now we should live in him. (Col verse)

3. I also observe the end of the first verse which says we are not born of human decision. I decided to quote that part because I do not feel it says the decision to believe is not ours. Rather, I believe it says the decision to be reborn is not ours, meaning, we cannot one day say "I will be born of water and spirit" and make it happen, the same way we cannot speak things into existance. We are born of God when we recieve Jesus, which is a supernatural event done by God only.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Being "SAVED" from the consequences of our sin. Period.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Saved despite the decisions he makes? What do you mean by that? In the mean time, lets look to see if decisions on man's part are involved here.

Lets analyze these verses - John 1 :10-12

"He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

And Colossians 2: 6
"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him"


Observations:
1. We have the right to become children of God, given we receive Jesus and believe in his name. (John verse)
2. We did receive Jesus as Lord, so now we should live in him. (Col verse)

3. I also observe the end of the first verse which says we are not born of human decision. I decided to quote that part because I do not feel it says the decision to believe is not ours. Rather, I believe it says the decision to be reborn is not ours, meaning, we cannot one day say "I will be born of water and spirit" and make it happen, the same way we cannot speak things into existance. We are born of God when we recieve Jesus, which is a supernatural event done by God only.

Nicely put Dave!

While those verses are very supportive of what you profess, they do not discount what I have said.  So, in essence, they don't seem to help.  You have intimated that everyone has a right to be a child of God yet you quote a verse that says that only those who believe and receive His grace are given the right to BECOME children of God.  Now, that verse says volumes.  First off, not everyone is given the right to be a child of God.  Secondly, and I think equally as important, prior to being given that right we are obviously not children of God.  So what are we?  Well, the Bible says we are children of wrath (Eph 2:3).  Whose wrath?  Obviously God's wrath, right?  It is God's wrath against the unrighteousness of man (all men) that keeps man from coming to God (Rom 1:18).  Also, AND THIS IS THE BIGGEST PART, verse 13 says, "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."  Now you, and most others on this board, contribute the salvation of man to man's decision to believe.  I know you addressed this but, unless you are contending that there are humans that believe (believe in this context means to believe with the seat of reason, i.e., understand with the intellect and accept as the truth) and are not saved I'm not sure how your defense suffices to avoid the controversy that arises.  Please, for the sake of coversational flow, do not tell me how "even the demons believe."  First off, we are talking about belief which means we must be referring to whatever we believe in.  So, what do we believe in?  We, Christians, believe that the good work that Christ did, taking our sins upon Himself and serving as an atoning propitiation, was sufficient to save us from the judgment of damnation that we were due.  The Bible does not tell us whether a method for redemption has been provided for the fallen demons.  I am not, nor have I ever said that our having faith was not required for our regeneration.  All I have said is that faith is not what saves us.  It's God's grace that saves us.  Faith is just the vehicle God uses to extend to us His grace.  We were fallen.  We had no faith.  God gave us that too.  I believe His actions of giving the faith to serve as the vehicle for His grace and His giving of His grace will always result in saving belief in His creation.  Always.

I gotta go.  I hope I addressed this thoroughly enough.

God bless,

Don

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
Being "SAVED" from the consequences of our sin. Period.

Would you say we are also saved from the guilt of the offense?  And by the way, I'm not talking about the feeling of guilt.  I'm referring to actually being guilty of transgression in God's eyes.

Thanks,

God bless

 

[Ben johnson]

I do not feel it says the decision to believe is not ours. Rather, I believe it says the decision to be reborn is not ours, meaning, we cannot one day say "I will be born of water and spirit" and make it happen, the same way we cannot speak things into existance. We are born of God when we recieve Jesus

Awesome, Dave! "So it depends not on the man that wills or the man that runs, but on God who has mercy"; and, "who were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh but of the will of God"; these harmonize with "you did not choose Me but I chose you" in meaning that HE does ALL the work of salvation, but we are saved when we receive Christ! Precisely!

He works THROUGH OUR FAITH!

Well, that's very "Ben Johnson" of you to say.

(Ben isn't completely sure what that means, but Ben enjoys the rapport with Don, so Ben winks and goes away giggling...)

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Awesome, Dave! "So it depends not on the man that wills or the man that runs, but on God who has mercy"; and, "who were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh but of the will of God"; these harmonize with "you did not choose Me but I chose you" in meaning that HE does ALL the work of salvation, but we are saved when we receive Christ! Precisely!

Do you believe that God does all the work of salvation in a general sense, or do you mean that in a sense specific to you?  Does God do ALL the work of salvation in you or did God, through the work of Christ, just do all the work of creating an opportunity for your salvation?  Because to me, "all" means every bit, all of it, start to finish.

(Ben isn't completely sure what that means, but Ben enjoys the rapport with Don, so Ben winks and goes away giggling...)

Didn't mean anything by it bro.  I was just pickin' at you, as we say in the south.

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

Don, I just made the world's most coolest post ever, and lost it before I added it. Some how this happens when I put the cursor where I want to backspace, then hit backspace but then it acts like the back buttom, goes back, and loses the data sometimes. Oh well. Here we go again !

1. Agreed, not everyone becomes a child of God. And before we profess Christ, we are not his children. Only those who receive Jesus. I believe that all men have this option, reason being is that God is not willing that any of us should perish. It would only make sense that God would allow all of his creation the chance to become a child of God. And God being a gentleman, he does not force us to do so. He give us free will to choose him and have eternal life, or live without him and have eternal death.

2. It is true, as scripture says, that we are not born of human decision. This is the same as saying that we cannot create the world with human decision. There are certain things that only God can do, and in that verse it says that only God can make us born again, we cannot do it ourselves. After all, if we could do it ourselves, there would be no need for the blood of Jesus Christ! Now, what does this mean if we are not born of human decision? It simply means that God has decided to save us, we did no decide to save ourselves. It is God's role to stand at the door and knock, but it is our role to open the door. Meaning, God has offered us grace, but we need to receive it. He will not bust open the door of our heart, he knocks, we need to respond.

3. I do not contribute salvation to man's decision to believe; in and of itself. I credit salvation fully to God. The only difference to what you are saying is that I believe we are not saved until we decide to receive Jesus. God has given us the free will to do this. We have the option of rejecting Jesus and following our own selfish desires, I see people do it all the time.

4. I think we are getting into a bit of a word game with the whole faith/grace thing. You say we are saved by God's grace and discount (in part) the work of our faith. I say we are saved by God's grace and say it comes WHEN we have faith. Check this out....

Romans 5:2
"through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. "

Romans 10: 9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

Ephesians 2: 8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- "



OK, we have gained access to grace BY FAITH, and saved THROUGH FATIH. Well.. what faith!!?? Our faith dude ! We have grace because we have faith. I have faith because I heard of Jesus and was compelled to believe. Yes, admittedly, God was at work in my heart. But he draws all men unto himself, including you, me, and Joe Nobody. There is nothing more special about me than there is about anyone else.

 

[PastorFreud]

I was struggling a little as I read through these posts. I realize that in Christianity we often focus on answers, but I really have more questions than answers.

First, a few observations. Whatever salvation is, the way we understand it is through language and words. There are many metaphors for salvation in the bible, but they are metaphors. Every metaphor breaks down at some point. Remember Shrek? Ogres are like onions. You mean they are smelly and nasty? No, they have layers. I think when we fail to remember the metaphorical nature of the bible and the way Jesus spoke, we can get caught up in stretching the metaphors farther than intended. When we do this, do we go beyond what God is trying to communicate and do a disservice to the community of faith?

Ok, some specific questions and observations mixed together.

1. Do we take the legal metaphor for salvation too far? While this metaphor is valid, it seems that some people stuff everything into it and make it fit. Reconciliation is defined legally, instead of relationally. Guilt is defined legally, instead of emotionally. Freedom is defined as legal status, instead of as being released from bondage.

2. Is salvation a thing that we possess? A status? or a quality? Taking all metaphors and not forcing them together, salvation transcends our traditional way of thinking. But maybe someone can clarify how salvation is only one of these possibilities.

3. How is the way we see salvation connected to the way we see sin? If sin is legal guilt, then salvation is legal forgiveness? If sin is alienation, then sin is reconciliation? Is it really possible to talk about one apart from the other?

4. I have seen suggestions that we are saved from something and others that we are saved for or toward something. It appears more both/and than either/or, but this also causes some conflict.

5. What is our role in this salvation and what is God's? Again, I see different metaphors empasizing different roles. In the legal metaphor, God does it all. In the alienation metaphor, the prodigal chooses to return home. In the lost and found metaphor, the owner does the looking and finding (and finds every coin lost). The shepherd finds the sheep and the sheep does nothing to contribute to being found (except maybe some bleating.)

I am thinking these are important questions because when we assert that salvation is this way or that way, the implications often cut out other possibilities. Creating doctrines around a single metaphor or a metaphor that gobbles up the others seems to exclude more possibilities than it encompasses.

When I look over these posts, I realize how different positions might lead us to say, "This person is saved and this one isn't." Or, "That one is saved but this one isn't." These posts treat salvation as a thing you have or don't. Others say "being saved" treating salvation as a quality or a process. Though I tend to favor this way of talking, it does not allow for determining who is in and who is out as easily.

Yout thoughts?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Don, I just made the world's most coolest post ever, and lost it before I added it. Some how this happens when I put the cursor where I want to backspace, then hit backspace but then it acts like the back buttom, goes back, and loses the data sometimes. Oh well. Here we go again !

Arrrrgggghhhh!!!  I hate that.  The other night I went to insert a smilie and it acted like I had the entire post selected so it replaced everything with a smilie.  Guess which one?  That's right, the laughing one!!!  I was not laughing!!

1. Agreed, not everyone becomes a child of God. And before we profess Christ, we are not his children. Only those who receive Jesus.

Okay, so you don't believe we are his children before we are saved but you believe anyone can be saved, right?  How am I doing so far?  And, what makes us his child is that we receive His Son, right?  What does that mean to be His child?  Is that an indicator of someone's salvation?

I believe that all men have this option, reason being is that God is not willing that any of us should perish. It would only make sense that God would allow all of his creation the chance to become a child of God.

Okay, acknowledging your belief in man's ability to make any moral decision, free will, you believe that, conceivably, all men could have been saved, or even absolutely none because it is up to the person making the choice, right?

And God being a gentleman, he does not force us to do so. He give us free will to choose him and have eternal life, or live without him and have eternal death.

Gentleman??  Can't say I've ever heard that one before.  LOL!

I don't know if you're married but let's assume you are not.  Let's say we were close enough friends where I could conceivably set you up on a date.  Let's say I came to you and said, "Okay Dave, Cindy or Sue, which one?"  What would you say?  Wouldn't you kinda need to know something about both of the perspective dates?

2. It is true, as scripture says, that we are not born of human decision. This is the same as saying that we cannot create the world with human decision. There are certain things that only God can do, and in that verse it says that only God can make us born again, we cannot do it ourselves. After all, if we could do it ourselves, there would be no need for the blood of Jesus Christ!

Okay.  I'm with you so far...

Now, what does this mean if we are not born of human decision? It simply means that God has decided to save us, we did no decide to save ourselves. It is God's role to stand at the door and knock, but it is our role to open the door. Meaning, God has offered us grace, but we need to receive it.

So what was God's basis for saving you, God's decision to save you or your decision to be saved?  God standing at the door and knocking or you opening the door?  God's offer of grace or you receiving it?

He will not bust open the door of our heart, he knocks, we need to respond.

No offense but this is where I seriously think you drive a spike in God's sovereignty.  God needed you to do something for His plan to be made manifest?  What if God's plan for you was your salvation as you say is God's plan for everyone, but you said, "Naaah.  I'll pass."  Does the will of the Father hinge on the will of the creation? 

We have the option of rejecting Jesus and following our own selfish desires, I see people do it all the time.

So because you see someone say, "That whole religion bit isn't my bag baby" means that at that point they are rejecting God?  Where is God in all that, sitting around waiting and hoping that man will choose Him?  Don't you feel that makes the plan of the Creator subject to the will of the creation? 

4. I think we are getting into a bit of a word game with the whole faith/grace thing. You say we are saved by God's grace and discount (in part) the work of our faith.

I don't mean to discount it.  I just acknowledge that until God regenerated me I had no faith.  I was fallen.  Our faith in God is not something that was a remnant within us after the Fall.  We were fallen.  God put the faith there.

 I say we are saved by God's grace and say it comes WHEN we have faith.

So God's grace comes when we have faith?  You sure about that?

Matthew 5:45
He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

God's gives His grace to all mankind.  We are alive only because of His grace.  We shall not perish only because of His grace.  He just limits His saving grace to His elect.

Check this out....

Romans 5:2
"through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. "

Cool, but check out 3 verses later:

Romans 5:5
Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 

Where did our love for God come from?

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

Romans 10: 9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

And you take this to mean your action of believing is why you are justified, and your action of confessing is why you are saved? 

Ephesians 2: 8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- "

Why did you quote a verse that says that faith is not from yourself but rather a gift of God, which by the way, is what I said?  By the way, look at verse 5:

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Okay, we were dead and God saved us by His grace.  Do you believe you loved God before He saved you?

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

OK, we have gained access to grace BY FAITH, and saved THROUGH FATIH. Well.. what faith!!?? Our faith dude ! We have grace because we have faith. I have faith because I heard of Jesus and was compelled to believe. Yes, admittedly, God was at work in my heart. But he draws all men unto himself, including you, me, and Joe Nobody. There is nothing more special about me than there is about anyone else.

Well if God did the same thing to draw you, me and Joe Nobody to him what was it that made you and I choose Him then?  You say there was nothing special about us, but it sounds to me like you think there was something special about us.  Maybe less pride?  More intellect?  More humility?  Something made us different, right?  If our difference resulted in our everlasting life wouldn't you say that was a pretty special, even spectacular, difference?

God bless