What is salvation?

[Reformationist]

When talking about losing salvation I often hear many Christians say stuff like "salvation is always there, it's just us that lets go of it."  It made me wonder what people thought salvation is.

My view is that salvation is a specific, personal, uncorruptible change in the person saved.  It's not some key that you carry.  It is you.  You are saved.  That's who you are.  What could you do?  Give yourself back?  Or do you believe that when you "reject" God you are changed back into whatever you were before you were saved?

I'd also like to know your position on what it was that changed YOU from a child of wrath who was at enmity with God to a child of God who seeks after His Will.

Thanks,

God bless

 

[Ioustinos]

Reformationist,

I believe that salvation is the regeneration of man. When one is saved they are given a new life through Christ Jesus. Their old nature has died with Christ and they are given a new life through His resurrection. The person believes in Christ as Lord and Savior and confesses and repents of their sin. They are justified by faith of their past sin, God, through the Holy Spirit, begins to sanctify them of their present sin, and one day they will be glorified so there can be no future sin. Therefore salvation is God forgiving a man/woman of their sin both past, present, and future through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
Reformationist,

I believe that salvation is the regeneration of man. When one is saved they are given a new life through Christ Jesus. Their old nature has died with Christ and they are given a new life through His resurrection. The person believes in Christ as Lord and Savior and confesses and repents of their sin. They are justified by faith of their past sin, God, through the Holy Spirit, begins to sanctify them of their present sin, and one day they will be glorified so there can be no future sin. Therefore salvation is God forgiving a man/woman of their sin both past, present, and future through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for that thorough reply Jesaiah.   Do you feel like salvation is something that is specific to the believer rather than this lofty "God thing" that many Christians often speak of?  It seems as if you agree with me that it is a physical and spiritual change specific to the person receiving the gift.  Is that a correct assessment?

God bless

 

[Ioustinos]

Hi Reformationist,

Do you feel like salvation is something that is specific to the believer rather than this lofty "God thing" that many Christians often speak of?

Would you mind defining this "God thing"?

But I believe that salvation is an act of God in the life of an individual. I do not believe that it is just some common practice that one takes on but rather it is only acheived through the transforming power of God himself in the heart and soul of a man/woman.

It seems as if you agree with me that it is a physical and spiritual change specific to the person receiving the gift. Is that a correct assessment?

I would say that it is physical in the sense that a) though our bodies may die one day, they will be resurrected to a newness of life and b) our physical nature or flesh is no longer dominating our life. I would say also that it is a spiritual change in that we are forgiven our sins, we are made at peace with God, we are made righteous and justified before God, and that we are born of the Spirit and thus it is our spiritual nature that now dominates and leads our lives.

 

[Ben johnson]

"For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousenss, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation."

That's the entirity right there.

Salvation is belief.

QUALIFIED belief, to be sure. But it is turning to Jesus, "epistrepho" spiritually turning, standing away from the seat of our control and presenting that very seat to our Lord. Willing slaves to a perfectly loving master---the definition of "LORD".

Every inch founded on belief.

Every continued second founded on belief.

Every step walking in Him, founded on and by belief. Faith. Surrender. Submission.

So then, when all of the warnings about "perseverence" and "endurance" and "abiding" are taken together and in harmony, it is ABIDING IN FAITH---continuing in belief.

What is belief? "With the heart man believes"---this is completely of volition. There is no "GOD-INSTALLATION" here---with the heart man believes.

With the HUMAN heart. A heart that can be deceived.

Thus, the warnings, to me, are full of real peril---far more than "empty hypothetical, meaningless hyperbole, fatherly advice against that which CANNOT happen"---I must be diligent about my calling AND election---words that mean exactly what they were written to mean. Diligent to abide in Him, to "keep myself in His love".

"As you have received Christ, SO WALK IN HIM" (Col2:6).

If I marry, I offer myself in commitment to my mate---I must toil and endeavor to further the relationship. It is mutual to be sure, SHE will also be working JUST AS ME. If I am not committed to the effort, can the relationship survive? No.

The relationship between the believer and his Creator is equated to marriage. It is closer of course, for in that relationship the PARTNER indwells the other (us). And yet, it is still absolute fellowship, identical to marriage! 1Jn1:3,6

And every mil of that is belief.

If a Human can be deceived into unbelief, then what happens to salvation?

Salvation founded on belief, cannot survive unbelief.

What could cause that kind of deception? Scripturally? Sin. And doctrines of demons. And drifting away. Everything warned against in Scripture.

Unbelief. Oft-times not all-at-once---we walk the narrow path, and we choose a tiny branch; no, not really a branch, why it's not apart from the path at ALL! See? It's right there alongside of the main. This branch is pleasurable; we walk further and further, and in our negligence we do not notice the path is turning and branching farther and farther. We spend less time with Him; we are lead, step by step, down the branch of our own choosing---of our deception. He calls for us---if we are turned back then "our soul is saved from THANATOS-DEATH and a multitude of sins are covered". Yet if we have lost the ability to hear Him, then one day we awaken, standing on our path---in the middle of desolation!!! The MAIN is NOWHERE TO BE SEEN! How could we have STRAYED SO FAR?!?!

One tiny step at a time.

We must be diligent. "We have need of endurance, so that when we have done the will of the Father we may receive the PROMISE!"

This is salvation to me. IN CHRIST. Belief, faith, abiding, walking, worshipping, fellowshipping, growing, always and forever IN CHRIST---believing.

"And this is the desire of God, that everyone who beholds the Son of God, and believes in Him, may have eternal life."

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
Would you mind defining this "God thing"?

Sorry to be so colloquial.  I just meant that it seems that many Christians view salvation as an entity unto itself that is still salvation regardless of it's manifestation within it's object.  It often seems as if many Christians refer to salvation as if it's a "pie."  If the believer doesn't reach out and take a piece it's still a pie.  My contention is that it is salvation because it is made manifest in it's object, i.e., us.

But I believe that salvation is an act of God in the life of an individual. I do not believe that it is just some common practice that one takes on but rather it is only acheived through the transforming power of God himself in the heart and soul of a man/woman.

I would say that it is physical in the sense that a) though our bodies may die one day, they will be resurrected to a newness of life and b) our physical nature or flesh is no longer dominating our life. I would say also that it is a spiritual change in that we are forgiven our sins, we are made at peace with God, we are made righteous and justified before God, and that we are born of the Spirit and thus it is our spiritual nature that now dominates and leads our lives.

I won't comment on these two paragraphs other than to say that I don't believe it could be said any better than you have here.

God bless,

Don

 

[DaveKerwin]

Salvation is what you have when you are saved. Saved from what? The penalty of sin. We have salvation after we have attained justification by our faith. That's as simple as I can see it right now.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Salvation is what you have when you are saved.

So, Dave, salvation is a thing that we have it's not a complete spiritual change of our nature?  Would you agree with the "pie" analogy above?

Saved from what? The penalty of sin.

Wouldn't you say that we are also saved from the guilt of our offenses, not just the penalty?

We have salvation after we have attained justification by our faith.

Where do you believe that faith came from?  Was it always in you?

Thanks,

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Reformationist
So, Dave, salvation is a thing that we have it's not a complete spiritual change of our nature?  Would you agree with the "pie" analogy above?

Wouldn't you say that we are also saved from the guilt of our offenses, not just the penalty?

Where do you believe that faith came from?  Was it always in you?

I did not follow the pie analogy, please explain it further.

I don't see a complete 180 degree turn from the former self a requirement for a person to say they have salvation (keep reading). Change is a part of being saved, but its not an immediate process. I know this from my own experience. I came to a saving knowledge of who Christ was. I prayed for forgiveness and I told God that I believed. At the time, I was living a foul life. I was not a completely new man after I said amen, though much had just changed. Over the course of a few months my lifestyle changed and so did my heart. It was a complete change in a sense (sin penalty gone, forgiven, child of God, etc), but not a complete change in who I was or how I acted.

I do believe we are saved from the guilt of an offence, but not the memory of the offences. Many people still live in guilt after being forgiven because they do not fully accept the grace of God. I know for myself that I lived with guilt for probably a year, then came to a better understanding that God doens't want me to feel that way, my transgressions have been forgotton, and I was made pure, a new creation.

Faith was not always in me. If it was, I would have always been a man of faith. Faith came to me after hearing the words of Christ. Before hearing the words of Christ, I did not have faith. I believe that if it were not for the obedience of other Christians, I may not have heard the good news of Christ.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
I did not follow the pie analogy, please explain it further.

I just meant it in the sense that many Christians speak of salvation as a thing that is not done to us but rather for us.  I just believe in the falleness of mankind and thus his inability to turn to God unless and until God changes His heart. 

Change is a part of being saved, but its not an immediate process.

I agree 100%.

I know this from my own experience. I came to a saving knowledge of who Christ was. I prayed for forgiveness and I told God that I believed. At the time, I was living a foul life.

So what was it, in the midst of this foul life that you lived, that made you receptive to the Gospel?

Faith was not always in me. If it was, I would have always been a man of faith. Faith came to me after hearing the words of Christ. Before hearing the words of Christ, I did not have faith. I believe that if it were not for the obedience of other Christians, I may not have heard the good news of Christ.

I thought you believed that all men can be saved?  If it's something as tenuous as whether they hear the Gospel or not how can man be held accountable if they don't?

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Reformationist
I just meant it in the sense that many Christians speak of salvation as a thing that is not done to us but rather for us.  I just believe in the falleness of mankind and thus his inability to turn to God unless and until God changes His heart. 

So what was it, in the midst of this foul life that you lived, that made you receptive to the Gospel?

I thought you believed that all men can be saved?  If it's something as tenuous as whether they hear the Gospel or not how can man be held accountable if they don't?

God bless

I was receptive to the gospel because I was a sinner in need of a savior.
It was not an unstable part of my life, just living foul without the knowledge of the truth. And my lifestyle changed after being aware of it.

I believe that God is not willing that any should perish. That is what the Bible says. Beyond that, I see all men having a chance to come to salvation, because of God's unwilliness to let them perish. Each man will decide for himself what he believes, whether he sliently or openly rejects Jesus. Men can be held accountable assuming they have heard the name of Jesus. I think it's fair to say the majority of people on the Earth have heard of Jesus (given that one third of the Earth's population profess faith in Christ). For the select few who have not heard of him, God will judge them. And from knowing God, I would expect Grace to apply where there was no chance to accept it. But that is just a side opinion.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
I was receptive to the gospel because I was a sinner in need of a savior.

But don't you understand that the Bible says that the very reason that you need a Savior is what makes you unreceptive to Him in your fallen state.  As a fallen human being, totally separated from God, dead in your trespasses, you weren't aware that you needed a Savior or that the Gospel was true.  It wasn't until God changed your fallen heart of stone to a heart of flesh that you could believe that the Gospel was the true Word of God.  Don't you understand that that is why we say saved.  It's not about you recognizing you needed a Savior.  Then your salvation is a result of your recognition and not God's grace.

And my lifestyle changed after being aware of it.

So you believed the Gospel to be true the first time you heard it?  Many people don't.  If God gives the same measure of grace to all men then what is the determining factor in why some don't believe the Gospel to be true?  Why were you able to acknowledge your need for a Savior?  Are you smarter than all those who don't realize it?  It can't be God's grace.  You say everyone got that.  What was it that made you more receptive to the Truth that sets us free. 

I think it's fair to say the majority of people on the Earth have heard of Jesus (given that one third of the Earth's population profess faith in Christ).

I think it would be safe to say that there are many people who have never heard the Gospel.  Do you believe that just hearing the name of Jesus should be enough to "convince" people of the truth of the Bible.

Is there something about your specific salvation that you attribute solely to God?  Was God solely responsible for any part of your eternal life?

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Reformationist
But don't you understand that the Bible says that the very reason that you need a Savior is what makes you unreceptive to Him in your fallen state.  As a fallen human being, totally separated from God, dead in your trespasses, you weren't aware that you needed a Savior or that the Gospel was true.  It wasn't until God changed your fallen heart of stone to a heart of flesh that you could believe that the Gospel was the true Word of God.  Don't you understand that that is why we say saved.  It's not about you recognizing you needed a Savior.  Then your salvation is a result of your recognition and not God's grace.

So you believed the Gospel to be true the first time you heard it?  Many people don't.  If God gives the same measure of grace to all men then what is the determining factor in why some don't believe the Gospel to be true?  Why were you able to acknowledge your need for a Savior?  Are you smarter than all those who don't realize it?  It can't be God's grace.  You say everyone got that.  What was it that made you more receptive to the Truth that sets us free. 

I think it would be safe to say that there are many people who have never heard the Gospel.  Do you believe that just hearing the name of Jesus should be enough to "convince" people of the truth of the Bible.

Is there something about your specific salvation that you attribute solely to God?  Was God solely responsible for any part of your eternal life?

I was receptive (AT LEAST IN PART) because I no longer wanted to be separated from God. I heard that my sins separated me and that I was unforgiven. I didn't want that. So I gave God my faith. Did God have something to do with it? Absolutely.

Yes, I believed the gospel the very first time I heard it. I could not believe I never heard it before then. I had always figured God existed, but was not sure, and didn't have any idea of what he really did for me. So after hearing about it, I prayed that day by myself and got right with God. Many people reject Christ. Perhaps they are blinded by satan, their hearts hardened, or they have been hurt by christians in the past, I don't know. Regardless of why, I do believe that God draws men to himself. What I am uncertain of is IF these people can reject God's drawing.

I am not certain what would be required for a person to be accountable to the freedom in Christ that they reject.

In terms of my specific salvation, it was a combination of things. I believe it was all orchastrated by God, yet dependant upon the nature of this world. God needed me to be at a church to hear it, he needed someone to tell it to me, and he needed my heart prepped. He called people to invite me to church, he called a pastor to preach, and he worked on me to make that seed blossom into faith. The pastor could have cheated on his wife and lost his position at the church, but he didn't. My friend who invited me could have thought church was lame, but he didn't. Satan could have blinded my eyes, but he didn't. I believe God orchastrated all of it, but it was ultimately my decision to accept that truth. I have seen people reject the best thing for them time and time again, for numerous reasons, which usually are never good. You can lead a thirsty horse to water, but it may just stand there and look stupid.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
I was receptive (AT LEAST IN PART) because I no longer wanted to be separated from God.

But why didn't you?  Before you were saved you were a child of wrath who was at emnity with God.  That means you were His enemy and He was yours.  Your fallen nature despised the righteousness of God.  I don't mean you sat there despising God.  I just mean that you nature was totally unrighteous, and His was totally righteous.

2 Corinthians 6:14
And what communion has light with darkness?

1 John 1:5
This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Look at this progression:

John 1:5
And the light (Jesus) shines in the darkness, and the darkness (mankind) did not comprehend it.

*italics are my addition for clarity

We were the darkness that did not acknowledge Jesus.  Look:

Ephesians 5:8
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord.

That does not say, "you were once in the darkness."  It says we were the darkness.

I heard that my sins separated me and that I was unforgiven.

But it is God that made you receptive to what you heard.  Alot of people have heard the Gospel who will never embrace it.  Again, does that mean there is something special about you that made you more receptive?  When were you saved?  I don't mean literally; I mean theologically.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,<SUP> </SUP>just as He chose us in Him&nbsp;BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,<SUP> </SUP>having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,<SUP> </SUP>to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

What was our spiritual disposition at the time that God actually regenerates us and adopts us into His family:

Ephesians 2:1-6
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,<SUP> </SUP>in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,<SUP> </SUP>among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.&nbsp; But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,<SUP>&nbsp;</SUP>EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD&nbsp;in trespasses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),<SUP> </SUP>and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

We were dead, Dave.&nbsp; You couldn't hear anything.&nbsp; You were dead to God.&nbsp; The reason you heard was because God made you hear.&nbsp; The reason you are saved is because God's grace doesn't work on the off chance that "you choose Him."&nbsp; God's grace is effectual.&nbsp; It does exactly what it sets out to do.&nbsp; It doesn't return to Him empty.&nbsp; All those whom have been given to Jesus are saved.&nbsp; This is what Scripture says over and over.&nbsp; It is God who chooses you.&nbsp; Don't let you pride keep you from admitting that God's love for you is the reason you are saved, not because "you chose God."

I didn't want that. So I gave God my faith.

You had no faith to give Dave.&nbsp; You were dead.&nbsp; You were God's enemy.&nbsp; You hated God.&nbsp; Look:

Romans 3:10-18
As it is written:


&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "There is none righteous, no, not one;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>There is none who understands;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>They have all turned aside;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They have together become unprofitable;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is none who does good, no, not one."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their throat is an open tomb;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; With their tongues they have practiced deceit";&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "The poison of asps is under their lips";&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their feet are swift to shed blood;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>Destruction and misery are in their ways;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>And the way of peace they have not known."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Did God have something to do with it? Absolutely.

God had everything to do with it.&nbsp;

Yes, I believed the gospel the very first time I heard it. I could not believe I never heard it before then.

That's because God chose when to bring you to a knowledge of Himself.&nbsp; It was God's design that you hear and believe the Gospel when you did.&nbsp; It wasn't chance Dave.

I had always figured God existed, but was not sure, and didn't have any idea of what he really did for me.

This is why all people are held accountable, even the pigmy on the island who was never visited by a missionary:

Romans 1:18-23
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,<SUP> </SUP>because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>For since the creation of the world HIS INVISIBLE ATTRIBUTES ARE CLEARLY SEEN, being understood by the things that are made, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE,<SUP> </SUP>because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.<SUP> </SUP>Professing to be wise, they became fools,<SUP> </SUP>and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

So after hearing about it, I prayed that day by myself and got right with God.

You got yourself right with God by praying?&nbsp; You were fallen until God changed your heart.&nbsp; He didn't change your heart after you prayed.&nbsp; You heard and believed the Gospel and prayed because He had saved you.

In terms of my specific salvation, it was a combination of things. I believe it was all orchastrated by God, yet dependant upon the nature of this world.

But God created, manages, and defines this world???

I hope these truths make sense to you and you concentrate and meditate on them.&nbsp; God does not work in "could have's" or "what if's."&nbsp; Your scenario of what might have happened is irrelevent because God is God and He will bring about His Will, regardless of what His creation does.&nbsp; To assume that your salvation was part of God's plan but His Divine plan was subject to so many variables depletes the sovereignty of God.&nbsp; The truth is that God saves us in spite of us.

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

I know that I was an enemy of God, that I was in darkness, no argument there.

Faith comes by hearing the words of Christ. I heard the words of Christ, my faith began. If I had not heard the words of Christ, I would not have come to faith. There was nothing special about me that allowed me to have faith, what was special was God's word ringing true in me.

I freely admit that God chose me, there is no pride there. I will not freely admit that he dischooses anyone. I do not believe it an accident that any human being is alive right now. I do believe that God is not willing that any of us should perish, so in my mind, God has a plan for everyone, and unfortunately people reject God. So for those people, their judgement is deserved, and God has made a place for them, hell.

On the contrary, I did have faith to give. The faith I recieved after hearing the words of Christ. I "was" an enemy of God and I "was" darkness, but not at that point. I believed in Jesus, I had faith. I prayed and I asked forgiveness, and I told God that I believe in his son.

Yes, God did have everything to do with it, like I said in my post before, he orchastrated everything. I also believe that it was not by chance that I was saved. God wanted me saved when he had me, but I still believe I could have rejected Jesus, which in turn would have made me miss his plan for me.

Yes, God is in control, and he can supersede the happenings of his creation. God will go to extreme means to accomplish his will, no doubt about that. Should I have been stubborn and not believed, I am certain he would have sought other means. The average Christian heard the word seven times before believing.

I have been in many convesations with people. I have offered Christ to many, some take him and some do not. I remember one time I told my friend the good news and he said that he just can't believe. He admitted it made sense and the rest, but he just didn't want to receive Christ. Go figure. It was his choice, and he passed it up. Should he never come to faith, then it is his own fault, and he will be without God for eternity.


Romans 10: 14- 17
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
I know that I was an enemy of God, that I was in darkness, no argument there.

Faith comes by hearing the words of Christ. I heard the words of Christ, my faith began.

That's not what "hearing" means in that context.&nbsp; It means to take into the seat of your reason (your intellect) and believe to be true.&nbsp; So you believe that you were God's enemy?&nbsp; What changed that?&nbsp; You say there was nothing special about you, right?&nbsp; So, since you are saved and some others aren't it must have been something special or different about what God did for you, right?

If I had not heard the words of Christ, I would not have come to faith.

So, on the off chance you had not heard the Word, you wouldn't have come to the faith.&nbsp; Now, Dave, who's fault would it be if you had not heard the words of Christ?&nbsp; Your's?&nbsp; What about the bushman who never got the chance to "hear the words of Christ?"&nbsp; Are they then not guilty?&nbsp; Are they free from judgment just because no one ever told them the story of God sending His Son so he never had the chance to believe or not?

There was nothing special about me that allowed me to have faith, what was special was God's word ringing true in me.

This is what&nbsp;I'm asking about above.&nbsp; Why did His&nbsp;Word "ring true" to you?&nbsp; Why doesn't it "ring true" to everyone?&nbsp;

I freely admit that God chose me, there is no pride there.

But you don't attribute His choosing you to be the cause of your salvation, right?&nbsp; He chose you but all that did was, what?&nbsp; Ensure you'd "hear" the Gospel?&nbsp; That didn't actually save you, right?&nbsp; You claim that you were saved because you chose to believe, right?&nbsp; It wasn't about God's choice.&nbsp; It was about your's.&nbsp; Right?

I do not believe it an accident that any human being is alive right now.

Of course it's not an accident.&nbsp; God has a purpose for each and every one of us.&nbsp; It's just that His purpose for some is honor and for others, dishonor.

On the contrary, I did have faith to give. The faith I recieved after hearing the words of Christ.

Okay...who put it there?&nbsp; Do you think you had some kind of dormant faith that was awoken when you "heard" the words of Christ?

I "was" an enemy of God and I "was" darkness, but not at that point.

Really???&nbsp; What was the reason for your transition into the light?&nbsp; Because, according to you, you chose the light when you were still&nbsp;the darkness.&nbsp; Otherwise, you were already the light when you chose the light.&nbsp; You are either the light in Christ, or the darkness.&nbsp; Which were you when you made the decision?

I believed in Jesus, I had faith. I prayed and I asked forgiveness, and I told God that I believe in his son.

Let me get this straight.&nbsp; YOU believed in Jesus, YOU had faith, YOU prayed, YOU asked God for fogiveness, and YOU told God that you believed in His Son and that's why HE saved you?&nbsp; Who is it again that you credit as the source of your salvation? &nbsp;&nbsp;

I also believe that it was not by chance that I was saved. God wanted me saved when he had me, but I still believe I could have rejected Jesus, which in turn would have made me miss his plan for me.

So God, your Creator, the Divine, Sovereign&nbsp;Ruler and King of all&nbsp;has a Divine plan for little ol' you and you have the power to reject His Divine, Sovereign plan.&nbsp; Hmmm...who is sovereign in your idea of God?&nbsp; I seem to have forgotten.&nbsp;

Yes, God is in control, and he can supersede the happenings of his creation.

That is, of course, except your happening to reject Him, right?

God will go to extreme means to accomplish his will, no doubt about that.

Why do you believe God, the Sovereign Ruler and King of all, has to "go to extreme means" to accomplish anything and yet you, a creation with no power of your own, no power to alter God's immutable, Divine plan, can hold Him off with the mere power of your will?&nbsp; You elevate yourself to the point where God is subject to you.&nbsp; That doesn't seem prideful to you?

Should I have been stubborn and not believed, I am certain he would have sought other means.

Until when?&nbsp; Until He just gives up and says, "Well, I guess this person's not going to believe no matter what I do.&nbsp; Man, I'm so powerless to make sure this person doesn't burn in hell for all eternity.&nbsp; I wish I was more powerful than my own creation."&nbsp; I mean, not everyone gets saved, right?&nbsp; So, do you believe God "seeks other means" until He decides to give up?&nbsp; Don't you think God knows who will and who will not be saved?

The average Christian heard the word seven times before believing.

What about the average non-Christian?&nbsp; How many times did they hear the word that you say brings faith in God?&nbsp; You said, "Faith comes by hearing the words of Christ."&nbsp; Aren't there some people that have heard the Word their whole lives and probably won't ever believe?&nbsp; So, don't you think just hearing it isn't the catalyst for the faith that saves?&nbsp; Maybe, just maybe, that faith comes from something else.&nbsp; What do you think?

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

This is why internet discussions frustrate me, there is no real time responces.

How about this, make a statement and support it instead of asking me repetitive questions.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
How about this, make a statement and support it instead of asking me repetitive questions.

Thought I was doing that. &nbsp; How about this, I'll just acknowledge that I've told you the truth of God and then trust Him as I say I do and trust that if He desires that you know the truth of His Word then He will make you understand.

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

Good one Don.

If you ask me a question in order to make a point, forget the question and make the point. Obviously my replies are worthless to you. But I will try again.

A person is saved when they believe in Jesus. At the moment, they have salvation. See John 3:16. I belive in Jesus, therefore I will not perish, I will have eternal life.

I don't see how you disagree with that verse from Romans. It talks all about non-believers and the message of the good news to them. I talks about people bringing the good news to non-believers, then it says that faith comes from hearing that message. It is obvious that faith comes from hearing the message, the words of Jesus Christ. When I tell someone that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no man comes to God but through him, they are hearing the words of Christ. They consider the fact that they cannot get to heaven with out Jesus, and consequently, some come to faith. And as the verse said "but not all accepted the good news."

The people who live far off in a jungle without hearing of Jesus may be guilty regardless of whether they heard the good news or not. But as Romans says "how can they believe in the one whom they have not heard?"

I am saved because Jesus forgave my sins. But I needed to accept that and profess that before I was saved from death.

Romans 10: 9 - 13
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Hey Don, why don't you take this verse and do what you did what what I said. Wait, I will do it for you. I will do with God's word what you did with my words... If YOU confess with YOUR mouth that Jesus is Lord, YOU will be saved.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
If you ask me a question in order to make a point, forget the question and make the point.

It's obvious that this is disintigrating into a discussion that is offending you.&nbsp; Since I started the thread I cannot just refrain from posting in it, but I will refrain from responding to you.

Obviously my replies are worthless to you.

Please forgive me if I've made you feel this way.&nbsp; They are definitely not worthless to me.

God bless