What is a pro-choice Christian?

[ambc]

I see isolating "pro-choice" as representative of one issue that should not mixed with taxing the rich. The "choice" part does not extended to other issues within left-leaning politics even if only left-leaning politics value pro-choice they are still separate issues.

the "left" side tends to be more socialist which is probably why the rich are taxed high. But you're confused on how tax works as you are only taxed from your income earned within a certain tax bracket. so if the high tax bracket (50%) starts at $100,000 and you make $100,001 then $1 of your income is taxed at 50%.

You missed my point entirely. I was saying that pro-choice advocates are for choice when it comes to abortion, but anti-choice when it comes to how successful people should be able to spend their money.

Apparently, I know more about taxation than you do. Your straw man fallacy is ridiculous and uncalled for. Here in the US, income tax has a flat rate. A person who makes over $444,501 is taxed at 39.6% of his income. But someone who makes a dollar less than that amount is only taxed at 35%. Our unfair taxation system isn't like Canada's.

 

[football5680]

They are apostates.

 

[DamianWarS]

You missed my point entirely. I was saying that pro-choice advocates are for choice when it comes to abortion, but anti-choice when it comes to how successful people should be able to spend their money.

Apparently, I know more about taxation than you do. Your straw man fallacy is ridiculous and uncalled for. Here in the US, income tax has a flat rate. A person who makes over $444,501 is taxed at 39.6% of his income. But someone who makes a dollar less than that amount is only taxed at 35%. Our unfair taxation system isn't like Canada's.

well I'm from Canada so that must be my issue. I did check out the IRS website admittingly for tax year 2015 but uses the same tax rate that you seem to be, quoted it says "It’s important to realize that moving into a higher tax bracket does not mean that all of your income will be taxed at a higher rate. Instead, only the money that you earn within a particular tax bracket is subject to that particular tax rate." but other than that I'm an ignorant outsider.

the classic strawman fallacy is about refuting an argument by using an issue that is unrelated like saying "that pro-choice advocates are for choice when it comes to abortion, but anti-choice when it comes to how successful people should be able to spend their money" pro-choice and high taxes are unrelated issues. I'm not sure which one you're trying to refute but pairing them together is building a strawman.

 

[Fantine]

Apparently, I know more about taxation than you do. Your straw man fallacy is ridiculous and uncalled for. Here in the US, income tax has a flat rate. A person who makes over $444,501 is taxed at 39.6% of his income. But someone who makes a dollar less than that amount is only taxed at 35%. Our unfair taxation system isn't like Canada's.

You don't understand the tax system. EVERYONE pays 10% between 0 and $18K (using married tables.) Those who earn between $18K and $76K pay 10% on the first $18K, and 15% on the difference. Those who earn between $76K and $153K pay 10% on the first $18K, 15% on the amount between $18 and $76K and 25% on the amount between $76K and $153K. And so on.

So no matter what people make, they are ALL paying only 10% on the first $18K of "taxable" income (married tables.) That's why it's fair.

 

[RaymondG]

So you're saying that circumstances like
how did conception happen
when did conception happen
how old the mother is
how old the male is
who the male is
what condition the fetus is in
what is the health of the mother
what are the finances of the mother
what are the finances of the male
what support structure is in place to raise the child
what health care is available for the mother
how many children already from this mother
how many children already in thsi family
if the conception was voluntary
if the conception was planned
how much food is available in the area
how much violence is in the area

are all considerations to ignore?

I have my own personal beliefs about these situations and would give an opinion for each. But I would not try to force anyone to follow my opinion. Nor would I judge another base on what I believe is right.
I mean I could call myself righteous and look down on the ones who don't do and believe what I believe and do....but don't we have enough of those types of Christians already?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Pro-choice is a deceptive term used by abortion supporters to reframe the killing of unborn babies as an individual right.

People who identify as pro-choice typically vote for left-leaning political parties that want to implement high taxes on people who make good money. To force a successful person to hand over 50% or 60% of his salary to the government is very anti-choice. People should have the right to choose what they do with their own money without the government confiscating most of it.

Why do pro-choice believers say that women have a right to choose an abortion, but think that rich people should not have the right to choose what to do with most of their money? If the pro-choice crowd were honest, their views on choice would be consistent. But they are far from consistent.

Just because you are unwilling to consider the alternative does not mean the alternative is incorrect.

 

[RaymondG]

It appears that you believe in moral relativity which is totally unbiblical as your anthropomorphic world view does not conform with the theocentric world view that Scripture teaches.

God gave free will. I choose not to judge and not to try and take it away. If you have a problem with Choice, you have a problem with the one who gave it.

I choose to leave the judging to God and people who put themselves on the level of God.

It's easy for you to say women should not have a choice if you are a man, or if it isn't your sister or friend who has been brutally raped and left for dead...If it had been you...then you would at least feel that everyone else should respect your decision to choose for yourself.

Someone once told me that I would be like God if I started separating the good and the bad....but He hissed a lot, so I paid him no mind.

 

[RaymondG]

A Christian should withdraw, remain silent, in the face of the horror of abortion? No.

If I told you what a Christian SHOULD do, I would be negating every post I've written......have you even read them? Everyone is free to use their free will as they choose, and be prepared to answer to God in this life and the next. When you Judge, you are Judged.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

You missed my point entirely. I was saying that pro-choice advocates are for choice when it comes to abortion, but anti-choice when it comes to how successful people should be able to spend their money.

Apparently, I know more about taxation than you do. Your straw man fallacy is ridiculous and uncalled for. Here in the US, income tax has a flat rate. A person who makes over $444,501 is taxed at 39.6% of his income. But someone who makes a dollar less than that amount is only taxed at 35%. Our unfair taxation system isn't like Canada's.

Laws are always about limiting choices. "Pro choice" people are seeking to limit your choice to stop abortions.

 

[redleghunter]

Playing devil's advocate, ... a pro-choice person, at the least, ... is one who does not want punish other women for choosing to have an abortion.

OTOH, even Jesus was willing to "Render unto Caesar ... "

Not understanding the above statement and the connection to the scripture quote.

 

[redleghunter]

The Bible contains pro-life scripture like in Luke 1:41 where it describes a baby in the womb leaping for joy, suggesting that life begins at conception. So I agree with both of you. But there are a lot of Christians in the United States who vote Democrat and support abortion. My point in making this thread was to draw attention to their inconsistent thinking when they label themselves "pro-choice."

Indeed. For Christians who support abortion or the right of a non Christian to "choose" the Incarnation should be evidence enough.

When you get down to brass tacks one has to explain the Person of Christ at conception and argue against His humanity.

 

[redleghunter]

So why would a Christian try force their will on anyone else.....via shame, ridicule, law or any other method?

We should arm women considering abortion with the truth.

When we become a new distinct human being is settled science. Human life begins at conception. However, pro choice advocates are science deniers when it comes to embryology.

 

[redleghunter]

As far as making a financial case:

A large part of tax money is for education in the cities, so eliminating abortions for the poor will not reduce the tax burden for the 14 -18 years the poor children are in school. Eliminating abortions will increase the number of children born to single mothers, who will not be working to support the children or paying taxes as their single parent household grow ever larger.

And many of them get pregnant before they finish high school. This only increases taxes on those who are working. Pro-life policies will increase taxes on the working class.

Wouldn't you just hate trying to make this case to Christ before His Throne.

Can't we consider the defenseless unborn human beings are the least of His children?

 

[redleghunter]

I said nothing about rules and laws....only free will. What do you have against the free will that God gave? Why should i be convinced that someone using their free will to do whatever they will and face whatever consequence thereafter, is wrong?

What about the free will of the unborn human being?

No lawyer, no jury not even a bench trial. Dead. Didn't get a chance to choose at all.

 

[redleghunter]

So how would you decide who to take free will from? Who are more inclined to harm someone if they keep it? Taking alway the ability to choose for one self is close to slavery. I do not wish to make another slave to my thoughts of morality no matter how good I think my thoughts are, or how likely I think others would stray if not forcefully held my good moral standards. But you are free to desire this for yourself.

If someone points a gun at my head how much free choice do I have left?

 

[Zoii]

Pro-choice is a deceptive term used by abortion supporters to reframe the killing of unborn babies as an individual right.

People who identify as pro-choice typically vote for left-leaning political parties that want to implement high taxes on people who make good money. To force a successful person to hand over 50% or 60% of his salary to the government is very anti-choice. People should have the right to choose what they do with their own money without the government confiscating most of it.

Why do pro-choice believers say that women have a right to choose an abortion, but think that rich people should not have the right to choose what to do with most of their money? If the pro-choice crowd were honest, their views on choice would be consistent. But they are far from consistent.

I get the comment regarding abortion, the bit about complaining how the rich are taxed is odd.... You want roads, shipping docks, police, Fire services, schools, military.... Who will pay it if you don't think you should be taxed. And the more services you demand, the more tax is required.

 

[Zoii]

I get the idea of the thread. Why do we on the one hand react strongly to abortion but react with indifference to the massive fetal and infant mortality rates in impoverished nations. It always appears to me that we Christians have very selective cohorts for indignation... We prefer not to see the dying infants and miscarriages due to trauma and starvation in areas like Somalia

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Pro-choice is a deceptive term used by abortion supporters to reframe the killing of unborn babies as an individual right.

People who identify as pro-choice typically vote for left-leaning political parties that want to implement high taxes on people who make good money. To force a successful person to hand over 50% or 60% of his salary to the government is very anti-choice. People should have the right to choose what they do with their own money without the government confiscating most of it.

Why do pro-choice believers say that women have a right to choose an abortion, but think that rich people should not have the right to choose what to do with most of their money? If the pro-choice crowd were honest, their views on choice would be consistent. But they are far from consistent.

I suspect that in the Judgment a great crowd of aborted babies in adult form will be waiting to ask the question, "Why did you never give me a chance at life?"

I also believe that in glory, there will be a great crowd of still-born, brain damaged, miscarried babies in adult form who will be reconciled to their grieving parents and they will all be able to enjoy the wonders of eternity together.

 

[Oldmantook]

God gave free will. I choose not to judge and not to try and take it away. If you have a problem with Choice, you have a problem with the one who gave it.

I choose to leave the judging to God and people who put themselves on the level of God.

It's easy for you to say women should not have a choice if you are a man, or if it isn't your sister or friend who has been brutally raped and left for dead...If it had been you...then you would at least feel that everyone else should respect your decision to choose for yourself.

Someone once told me that I would be like God if I started separating the good and the bad....but He hissed a lot, so I paid him no mind.

Really?? You've got to be kidding. I guess you never heard of the commandment that thou shall not murder? Instead, you prefer to not judge sin - despite God's clear command as to what constitutes sin. Just what other commandments do you prefer to ignore in order not to judge? Everyone has free choice but for you not to judge what is sinful according to God's standard is woeful - unless of course you consider God's Commandments to be God's suggestions.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

God always considers the heart and not the deed.

You have made a number of pro choice comments, so from my point if view tyou have a heart to allow the murder of unborn children.

Go do some research on what abortion actually involves and what some of the doctors who carry out the procedures say. Throwing abies with their hearts still beating in the bin, chopping living babies limb from limb to remove them and such like are not uncommon. Ignorance does not make murder acceptable.