What is a pro-choice Christian?

[SkyWriting]

You have made a number of pro choice comments, so from my point if view tyou have a heart to allow the murder of unborn children.

I've seen quite a bit of blood splattered, including brains across the living room floor.
So my Pro-Life view is rather broad-based on the on-going lives of all people
and not so focused on just the small ones.

 

[A_Thinker]

The numbers have been steadily dropping for the last 25+ years.

From a high of almost 1,500,000 abortions to less than 1,000,000 in 2014. That's a 33% reduction.

Some of that drop appears to be due to a drop in unintended (particularly teen) pregnancies.

One pro-life tactic which appears to be, particularly, successful, ... is operating a "Crisis Pregnancy Center" right next to existing Planned Parenthood outlets.

I drive past a pair of such facilities often ...

 

[ambc]

Comparing the slaughter of Jews to abortion disrespects the women's desired autonomy over their own bodies, and in turn the memory of those who died in the holocaust.

Why do you say "autonomy over their own bodies" instead of "slaughter of the unborn" or simply "abortion"? You are willfully using deceptive language to make abortion seem like a harmless subject. Why are you being so dishonest?

 

[KWCrazy]

Why is the only consideration for the potential life of the embryo or foetus and not the actual life of the woman?

Nobody faults abortions in the extremely unlikely context of the mother's life. Having a baby is not a terminal illness.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

I've seen quite a bit of blood splattered, including brains across the living room floor.
So my Pro-Life view is rather broad-based on the on-going lives of all people
and not so focused on just the small ones.

This post is about "the small ones" as you call them. If you asked anyone on here when killing is justified, you might get some answers about in war, protecting others, even protecting property, but I doubt you would find anyone who says the killing of someone just because you dont want them around any more is acceptable.

 

[KWCrazy]

Of those who enter an abortion clinic, the survival rate is only about 50%.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

Nobody faults abortions in the extremely unlikely context of the mother's life. Having a baby is not a terminal illness.

Thats not rue. I know a couple who had an eptopic pregnancy and it would have resulted in the death of the mother and baby without an abortion. They still questioned (faulted) the choice years later and still wonder if hey did the right thing and have guilt about it. I have assured them as best I can but was not the closest person to them to provide support and did not push it with them. I am sure God does not count it against them as they have repented of it.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

Of those who enter an abortion clinic, the survival rate is only about 50%.

Less than that. Twins, etc and the odd mother who dies from complications.

 

[SkyWriting]

This post is about "the small ones" as you call them. If you asked anyone on here when killing is justified, you might get some answers about in war, protecting others, even protecting property, but I doubt you would find anyone who says the killing of someone just because you dont want them around any more is acceptable.

What a crock! Plenty of good reasons are out there,
except one you couldn't possibly know about unless it
was your own reason.

 

[Fantine]

I remember a Ken Follett book which began when a woman died in childbirth. Her husband buried the living baby with her because he had no way to feed him. A monk was watching and rescued the baby as soon as the man left, feeding him in the monastery...but I still wonder whether people really did that in Christian Europe in the 12th century???

 

[SkyWriting]

Of those who enter an abortion clinic, the survival rate is only about 50%.

About the same as the number of babies that die before birth.
Around 50%.

 

[KWCrazy]

Thats not true...

It is an undisputable fact that less than one percent of abortions are done to save the life of the mother. I know someone who had two tubal pregnancies what fortunately self aborted, or she would have had to have them removed. Anecdotal evidence is meaningless. The numbers are not in dispute by the abortion industry.

 

[KWCrazy]

About the same as the number of babies that die before birth.
Around 50%.

So now the odds of survival are only 25%.
Babies spontaneously abort for different reasons, but predominantly because there is something defective in the process. A friend of mine was in a coma for 2 days after losing her baby because she nearly bled to death. Within two years she had a perfectly safe and natural childbirth.

 

[KWCrazy]

...but I still wonder whether people really did that in Christian Europe in the 12th century???

Let's not confuse labels with reality. Christ would never have buried a baby alive, so that was not a Christian act.

 

[RaymondG]

Really?? You've got to be kidding. I guess you never heard of the commandment that thou shall not murder? Instead, you prefer to not judge sin - despite God's clear command as to what constitutes sin. Just what other commandments do you prefer to ignore in order not to judge? Everyone has free choice but for you not to judge what is sinful according to God's standard is woeful - unless of course you consider God's Commandments to be God's suggestions.

It is my job to follow God's commandments, not to look for others who arent. It doesnt make me feel good to point out sinners and call them bad and condemn them. If that makes you feel good, by all means, you have free will to do so and face the consequences of your actions, be it good or bad. I can warn you, but i will not watch you to make sure you listen and condemn you if you dont......which you seem to believe you are to do with those who dont share your view of "Pro-choice".

Let me warn you now....When you judge......you ARE judged. Im not going to follow you and point out when you judge going forward....I will leave you to your free will to choose to accept or reject, and i will not view you good or bad for choosing either one.

Look how angry the judgers seem. They sound as if they are being hurt by reading words. where is the peace, love and joy? Where is the confidence that God is in control and allows and disallows what he will. Who by worrying can add one cubit to their stature?

What about the power of your prayer? do you have power? Can you pray that Gods will be done without you having to judge along with him? Does he need my help. Am I more godly by judging good and evil? I was told that once, and believed it......then i got kicked out of Eden.

Try one day, just one to go without judging and your life will change for the better. And I wont condemn you either, if you dont believe me.

 

[RaymondG]

By the same token perhaps we should also respect the right of people to hold certain beliefs, even if those beliefs cause the death of many people.
The only reason nobody considers the memory of those who have been killed in utero is because nobody (apart from their murderers) met them.

You should only respect their rights to their belief, if you want your rights to beliefs respected. If you dont care about your own rights being respected then the correct course of action would be to try to take away the rights of others. And I respect your right to do so.

 

[SkyWriting]

So now the odds of survival are only 25%.
Babies spontaneously abort for different reasons, but predominantly because there is something defective in the process. A friend of mine was in a coma for 2 days after losing her baby because she nearly bled to death. Within two years she had a perfectly safe and natural childbirth.

Right. But keep in mind,
we have no concern for the mother's health before or after
or of the unborn's health or life before or after.

Our only interest is in safe passage from egg to birth. After that
we don't give a rip what happens.

 

[Archivist]

This thread has largely turned into a debate on abortion. Perhaps to get it back to the question posed in the OP, "What is a pro-choice Christian?"

Quiet simply a pro-choice Christian is a Christian who does not want to impose his or her beliefs regarding abortion on others. My personal view--which I think is the view of most pro-choice Christians I know--is that while I would never have an abortion except in cases where my life was at risk or I had been a rape or incest victim, it isn't my place to stop those who don't share my beliefs from having an abortion.

That is pro-choice.

That does not make me a murderer. That does not make me a killer. Those who keep repeating that in this thread ignore the fact that pro-choice can also mean a decision to carry the fetus to term and give birth. Abortion is not the only possible choice.

I like these words written by Chloe Gottschalk:

"I am pro-choice, yes, it's true. I believe it is a woman's fundamental right to decide what she wants to do with her body. And yes, I am a Christian, too. I believe in God, and I believe in a woman's right to choose. I do not see myself as a hypocrite, nor do I see myself as a 'murderer' as some of you have probably already labeled me as."

"You can be pro-choice, and pro-life, too. Just because I think abortion is a woman's decision does not mean I would partake in the act myself. Of course, I would rather see a pregnancy go full term, and have the child put up for adoption over the fetus being terminated. But at the same time, I understand why some women would choose to have the pregnancy terminated instead."

Her well-written and well-reasoned article can be found at I Am A Pro-Choice Christian, And Here's Why.

Another well-written article on the subject is this one by Charles Clymer, available at Why I Am Christian And Pro-Choice | HuffPost.

"I am pro-autonomy. I am pro-independence. I am pro-choice. I am also of the opinion that my religion — or anyone’s religion— has no place in the affairs of other people. I don’t like Christ being used as a political cudgel, but here we are, in 2016, talking about the very personal decisions women make, and so, I feel compelled to write this."

"I realize some of you, my friends, have incredibly strong opinions on life beginning at conception. I respect that this, in part, comes from a place of empathy."

"My disconnect with the “pro-life” message, aside from the obvious autonomy issue, is that very rarely have I seen my pro-life friends argue as passionately for children’s healthcare or universal healthcare or refugees or against the death penalty or poverty or for mental health advocacy or homeless advocacy or for VA reform, etc."

Please look at what some have said in this thread. I have not seen any of those who claim to be pro-choice questioning the Christian beliefs of those who claim to be pro-life, but I have seen many posts where those who claim to be pro-life have said that those who are pro-choice cannot be Christians. Isn't that judging? Are we supposed to be doing that?

 

[SPF]

There sound like there are actually separate issues going on here, and they should be pulled apart.

1) Firstly, is the act of abortion for convenience sake moral or immoral.

2) Should the government legislate whether abortion is legal or illegal.

The morality of abortion has nothing to do with women's rights. The morality of abortion is entirely dependent upon the nature of the human life inside the womb.

Once we establish whether or not an abortion is moral or immoral, we need to decide if its something that we should legislate. One of the primary reason that laws exist is to protect the innocent and other people from harm. If it is determined that an abortion is immoral because the baby is a morally valuable human, then I think the answer is yes, we should legislate against abortion because we should want to protect the innocent human life.

 

[FireDragon76]

Why do you say "autonomy over their own bodies" instead of "slaughter of the unborn" or simply "abortion"? You are willfully using deceptive language to make abortion seem like a harmless subject. Why are you being so dishonest?

No deception is intended, and I'm being very honest about why I am "pro-choice".

Bodily autonomy and individual rights matter a great deal to me, and individual rights and autonomy are part of my church denomintion's (ELCA) moral discourse. This is why the issue of abortion is not so clear-cut in my mind, or the mind of many other Christians.

We do not consider abortion a trivial act, but we recognize it as morally complex.